Use of thrust reversers

[flight-crew]

I'd just like to get some input from any and all jet pilots on their techniques with the use of thrust reversers on landing.

Assuming you have a long runway - 9000 ft or more, what is your technique on deploying thrust reversers? I fly with some people who just unlock the reversers but don't even use any reverse. They just wear the h.ell out of the brakes. Then I see some people who use reversers, but still hammer the brakes really hard as soon as they touch down.

My technique is that I use reversers in the high-speed regime of the landing, and then get on the brakes usually around 80 kts (as I'm stowing the reversers). If I have a short runway then I'm usually on the brakes immediately along with the reversers. I also find that reversers provide a smoother deceleration than brakes, which can be jerky at times. In particular, I'd like to get some opinions from some CRJ pilots.

 

[ahaly]

Are you flying the ERJ?

I fly the ERJ, and we were recently instructed on using brakes predominantly on the landing while opening the buckets and keeping the thrust reverse at idle. They say this is supposed to save money on our brakes....and they say it has.

This is the way I have been doing it.....predominantly brakes and idle reverse thrust with buckets open, depending on runway length of course.

 

[cl-65link]

The Canadairs clam-shell thrust reversers are less effective than the bucket-type found on other aircraft and really only work well at high speeds. Brakes are applied as soon as the nosewheel touches down and the cl-65 has very effective wheel brakes.

 

[BigFlyr]

The CL65 has decent reversers and decent brakes but nothing out of the ordinary... I think you'll find that regardless of runway length you should be in the habit of using the same technique... Apply approx. 75% Thrust reverser after touchdown (nosewheel on the ground) then strart backing off, runway length permitting and transition to brakes. Reversers to idle by 60 kts... I usually leave it to the PIC to stow them completely just in case his brakes fail.

 

[dav8or]

Are you flying the ERJ?

I fly the ERJ, and we were recently instructed on using brakes predominantly on the landing while opening the buckets and keeping the thrust reverse at idle. They say this is supposed to save money on our brakes....and they say it has.

This is the way I have been doing it.....predominantly brakes and idle reverse thrust with buckets open, depending on runway length of course.

I agree. I pop the buckets and leave the engines at idle if I have the choice, not only is it easier on the equipment, it gives the pax a better ride.

 

[Tri-holer]

My only jet experince is with the 727 in cargo operations.
That said, I always used the reversers. Usually before the nosewheel touched the runway, I had them deployed and spinning up (always watchful for one not deploying - although I am sure it would be nowhere as bad as one not deploying on the 737). While the nose was coming down, the engines would be in reverse thrust up to about 1.5 EPR or so (don't know the corresponding N1).

At about 80-100 knots, I would bring the power back to idle reverse and start applying brakes. Always handed it back to the captain in idle reverse never with the reversers stowed (unless he let me take it off the high speed - in which case it would be stopped with the reversers stowed).

The only time I got on the brakes right away was for a real short runway.

I have been curious while being a pax on CRJs. It always seems that they get the nose down, jump on the brakes, and then when the aircraft is less than 100 knots or so, they get on the reversers. It always seems backwards. Guess I'll find out in a couple of months when I go through training.

 

[501261]

Don't forget coming out of idle reverse also INCREASES the noise signature significantly at noise sensitive airports.

Of course, on wet runways use whacha got. I don't remember the exact statistic, but for every second you delay going to max reverse you DECREASE their effectiveness dramatically (since T/R's are most affective at high speed).

 

[trainerjet]

While the nose was coming down, the engines would be in reverse thrust up to about 1.5 EPR or so (don't know the corresponding N1).

At about 80-100 knots, I would bring the power back to idle reverse and start applying brakes. Always handed it back to the captain in idle reverse never with the reversers stowed (unless he let me take it off the high speed - in which case it would be stopped with the reversers stowed).

Although I admit I'm not familiar with the 727 specifically, 1.5 EPR seems a little high for reverse thrust...especially before the nosewheel is on the ground, since high reverse EPRs can significantly reduce rudder effectiveness, particularly in aircraft with tail mounted engines. I would at least want the nosewheel on the ground before I had a large amount of reverse thrust, just in case there was a directional control problem.

Also, 80-100 knots seems very late to begin applying brakes.

And finally, at every company that I have ever worked, including my current one, if the FO is the PF, he retains control of the aircraft on the landing roll until the reversers have been stowed and the aircraft is at low taxi speed (something less that 60 kts).

And to 501261...

I'm not sure what you mean by "on wet runways, use whatcha got", but max reverse on wet runways (in some aircraft...the MD-80 is one that I am familiar with) is less EPR than max reverse on a dry runway. One of the things the NTSB discussed in their report of AA 1420 in LIT was the crew's use of a reverse EPR setting in excess of what was recommended by the company for use on wet runways. And, according to the report, AA has since reduced it's recommended max EPR for the MD-80 on wet runways to 1.3.

 

[Rvrrat]

What's the procedure for dealing with ice/snow contaminated runways?

And while not specific to thrust reverse use, is any form of aerodynamic braking still being used or taught?

 

[TriStar_drvr]

Thrust Reversers. I use them only when I want to stop before the end of the runway.

 

[sabreliner]

One thing I've noticed a lot: people stowing the reversers before they allow the engines to spool down to idle thrust. The aircraft surges ahead as the TR's are stowed.

Go to idle deploy for a while before you stow the buckets!

 

[Typhoon1244]

I try, if at all possible, to avoid using the brakes altogether. On the CRJ, the reversers provide a very smooth deceleration, and I have yet to land on a runway where I needed to get on the brakes before 60 knots and/or exiting the runway. So far, I haven't inconvenienced anyone landing behind me. (I've also never landed in Key West...might use a different technique there.)

One of my biggest pet peeves is guys who work and work to make a landing that is so glass-smooth, you can't even feels the wheels touch...and then slam on the brakes as hard as they can. Jeez, that drives me up the wall!

An aside regarding T/R technique on wet/contaminated runways: everybody knows that the moment directional control is compromised, you come out of reverse, right? (I've been amazed at how few people I talk to who are aware of this.)

 

[flight-crew]

Typhoon1244,

My technique is exactly like yours in the CRJ.

One thing that I've noticed about the reversers on the CRJ... they take about 3 - 4 seconds to deploy. Then after you have deployed them, if you go all the way back to the stops (max reverse), it takes about another 3 - 4 seconds until you really start feeling the deceleration of the airplane. So all in all, it's about a 6 - 8 second process from the time the wheels touch the ground until you are getting good effectiveness out of the reversers. I have flown with some Captains that don't like waiting that 6 - 8 seconds and see the need to hammer on the brakes right after touchdown, even on a 12,000 ft runway.

Question for Typhoon1244- How far back do you go on the reversers? Max reverse to the stops? Or a certain N1%? I don't usually look at the N1 gauges when I'm applying reverse... I'm usually looking outside. But I'll usually go to max or close to it.

And another question for you. What is your technique on thrust reverse use with a strong crosswind?

 

[Tri-holer]

Trainerjet

No idea how to work the quotes so I did it my way. You said

"
Although I admit I'm not familiar with the 727 specifically, 1.5 EPR seems a little high for reverse thrust...especially before the nosewheel is on the ground, since high reverse EPRs can significantly reduce rudder effectiveness, particularly in aircraft with tail mounted engines. I would at least want the nosewheel on the ground before I had a large amount of reverse thrust, just in case there was a directional control problem.

Also, 80-100 knots seems very late to begin applying brakes.

And finally, at every company that I have ever worked, including my current one, if the FO is the PF, he retains control of the aircraft on the landing roll until the reversers have been stowed and the aircraft is at low taxi speed (something less that 60 kts).
"

I just talked to a friend who is still flying the 727 and he confirmed what I said. 1.5 is actually a little low. We would set Go Around EPR (usually around 1.92)in the gauges and then when reversing would stay below those settings. Bringing the reversers on with the nose in the air is not a recommended procedure but many people did it - only in conditions that permitted it, not heavy crosswinds.

My friend is flying Super 72s and he says they have MD-80 engines using hydraulic clamshell reversers. Those, he says, sometimes deploy asymetrically (taking almost full rudder to counter if that nose is not on the ground). He says, when he flys the super, he doesn't do the reversers until that nose is on the ground. The 72s I flew had cascade vanes and very reliable reversers - I never had, or saw, an asymetrical deployment.

As far as 80-100 knots being very late to apply brakes, the reversers were very effective. While the 72 had very effective brakes, many times on runways that were 9,000'-12,000', I had no reason to use them. Idle reverse at 80 knots would continue to slow the plane. I would usually turn the aircraft over to the captain at 50-60 knots, or even slower, without ever touching the brakes.

Aerobraking and reversers could virtually do the job by themselves. I have seen a captain holding the nose in the air - with the yoke in his lap and his thumb running the trim all the way back - all the way down to about 40 knots. And it gently dropped down.

Another pet peeve.
Recommended technique is to get the nose wheel on the ground right away, reversers, spoilers, and brakes. I have flown with many people (jumpseated too) who slammed the nose on the ground. I always hated to see it. It was just as easy to fly the nosewheel onto the ground gently and almost as quick. The only time I found it necessary or desirable to slam the nose on the ground was in a real heavy crosswind, especially in adverse (heavy rain, snow, or icy) conditions. I know that many experts will probably think I don't know what I am talking about - oh well.

Typhoon 1244
Agree with you wholeheartedly about the brakes.

flight-crew
Guess that explains why on the CRJ, it feels like they slam on the brakes and then get on the reversers. Thanks.

 

[AAflyer]

Tri-holer,

Actually compared to other aircraft the 727 reversers sucked (did you have -9 or -15 engines). The reason I think it worked pretty well for you was the areodynamic dragging when you left the nose in the air, I did that too. That much airflow hitting the belly and nose would cause it to slow faster than if you followed Boeing's recommended procedure of putting the nose down.

FlyChicaga,

I have heard the arguments back and forth about which is cheaper to repalce, barakes, or engines. I have heard good arguments on both sides. The one thing I think is standard in almost all jets is you want the reversers stowed BY 60knots to avoid ingestion of FOD. It is a procedure at my airline for a few of the fleets I have been on.

Typhoon,
You are so correct, I have been amazed myself at the amount of pilots that did not know to get out of reverse when control was lost. I think more airlines should incorporate that into the training curriculum.

AAflyer

 

[Tri-holer]

AAflyer

Actually the ones I flew were old American birds with the mighty -7 power. As I understand, the Post Office wanted us to use them in order to save money on fuel. Nevermind the fact that during the summer, we had to stay low cause we couldn't get up high and still go fast.

 

[trainerjet]

Tri-holer...

If I came across as being critical of your post, that was not my intention. I was just pointing out how we do things on the MD-80, and admitted knowing little about the operation of a 727.

I will admit to occasionally having a little fun by "flying" the nosewheel as long as possible...but only in ideal conditions. I once had an FO tell me while I was doing this that I need to get the nosewheel on the ground as quickly as possible, in case there was ice or snow on the runway. My response was that I would indeed do just that, IF there was ice or snow on the runway ( it happened to be a very nice 70 degree day).

Some of the older 737s had a lock-out to prevent selection of reverse thrust until the nosewheel was on the ground. I have a friend who flies the B717. He says it's the same on that airplane. Even so, I agree that you can still gently lower the nosewheel without incurring much of a delay in getting the reversers out.

As far as brakes vs. reverse, our company seems to prefer that we use idle reverse only, using primarily brakes (autobrakes) to slow during the landing roll. They say this reduces the possibliity of FOD damage. Obviously, runway length and conditions are a consideration.

 

[AAflyer]

-7s, WOW. I had flown -9s out of MIA hot and heavy on 9L. I swear I saw people's faces in the cars on Lejuene RD we were so low. Can only imagine if we had coughed an engine. YIKES!!

AAflyer

 

[Clownpilot]

I am against

Reversers are overrated and I refuse to use them.

In fact I believe thrust reversers are the work of the devil. They take a perfectly good engine producing thrust and make it do the opposite of its intended job.

I do now and will always boycott thrust reversers.

Please visit my website at http://www.banevilthrustreversers.com

I'm not crazy about brakes either. And spoilers suck.

Please post additional interesting items for me to comment on.

for instance:

You MUST brush your teeth using up and down stokes; NEVER side to side.

-7s, WOW. I had flown -9s out of MIA hot and heavy on 9L. I swear I saw people's faces in the cars on Lejuene RD we were so low. Can only imagine if we had coughed an engine. YIKES!!

AAflyer

 

[AAflyer]

Not sure what the hell my post has to do with you not using reverse thrust. I was talking about -9 and -7 engines, how underpowered they are.

As for not using reverse thrust. Take a look at your operating manual 1, approach and landing tab, pg. 40. Tell me what it says about reverse thrust.

I gotta hard time buying you fly for the same airline I do and get away without using reverse thrust on the 767/757.

Why didn't you get typed in the bird like everyone else?

AAflyer