USAPA wins appeal!!!!!!

[Fast43]

Spending 8 months on the Merger Comm back in the 90's is hardly a gravy train but I can see we'll just have a difference of opinion.

Yes I do - but I think you'll find many (concessionary) instances of min fleet deletion, pay cap increases, relaxed scope etc that have been negotiated by unions that allow furloughs to then take place .

Ok, Ive been wrong before but not as much as the wife says so.

Since you seem to know. could you tell me if in any of those instances the Union approached the Company and said we think you should Furlough some guys.

Or was it the other way around.

Fast

 

[Fast43]

Bucket,

Let's see.... "completely destroy the minority"??? OH! The drama of the westicle! Like being kicked in the westicles! Oh my goodness! What about DOH is even close to "completely destroyed?!?!?!?!?" EFF U!!!!!!

Now let's look at: "If the Company want's instant access to the receiving end of litigation, they'll accept your DOH dream list." Oh god....that's hilarious!!!! Yeah, I'm sure USAirways is running scared thinking about you and your super sharp lawyers taking them to judge wakeboard. Ya know, I'm not so sure....I liked you better when it seemed like you might not just be grasping at straws.

Now: "USAPA has been unable to prove....even slightly....that what they're attempting to do is legal." OMG....wait.....lemme catch my breath. THAT's really a stretch! USAPA is in compliance with a plethora of federal laws....all of them.....and was just vindicated of wrongdoing. Wake's courtroom was tainted. You will come to accept this in time. Your "victory" in his venue wasn't much to write home (to Bisbee) about.

And then the money thing.....like your mighty ALPA payscale is soooo much better than what ALPA negotiated for us. In the grand scheme, both of our contracts SUCK. If you had any experience at a real major airline you'd know this, but you're too proud to be working at Mesa Grande to see it.

U R A JOKE!!!!

BC,

Ok, maybe you could point this rookie to where it says anything about usapa being "vindicated of wrongdoing". Even spinmaster cleary has not made such a proclaimation. Could it be because the 9th did NOT rule on the merits. In fact didn't they say that if usapa DOESNT represent the west pilots FAIRLY the will face the pain of an unquestionably RIPE DFR. ie just like the one they just dismissed for being too early? They didn't say anything about it being incorrect in its finding of guilt.

As far as funding. No problem there at all. We make substancialy more than our counterparts over there, we can afford it easily. Don't confuse the request for usapa to pay Attorney fees as a sign that we can't. We just feel its better that those who caused this should pay for it. It is you and yours like you who are saying that making less than what Spirit went on strike for is just fine with you for a long time. "we are used to it etc."

You should be so pround, you bigshot Airline Pros are really showing the "Mesa Grande" crowd "what for" with that financial approach


Fast


Fast

 

[becket]

Bucket,

Let's see.... "completely destroy the minority"??? OH! The drama of the westicle! Like being kicked in the westicles! Oh my goodness! What about DOH is even close to "completely destroyed?!?!?!?!?" EFF U!!!!!!

Now let's look at: "If the Company want's instant access to the receiving end of litigation, they'll accept your DOH dream list." Oh god....that's hilarious!!!! Yeah, I'm sure USAirways is running scared thinking about you and your super sharp lawyers taking them to judge wakeboard. Ya know, I'm not so sure....I liked you better when it seemed like you might not just be grasping at straws.

Now: "USAPA has been unable to prove....even slightly....that what they're attempting to do is legal." OMG....wait.....lemme catch my breath. THAT's really a stretch! USAPA is in compliance with a plethora of federal laws....all of them.....and was just vindicated of wrongdoing. Wake's courtroom was tainted. You will come to accept this in time. Your "victory" in his venue wasn't much to write home (to Bisbee) about.

And then the money thing.....like your mighty ALPA payscale is soooo much better than what ALPA negotiated for us. In the grand scheme, both of our contracts SUCK. If you had any experience at a real major airline you'd know this, but you're too proud to be working at Mesa Grande to see it.

U R A JOKE!!!!

I'd love to wager a few bucks with you as to how successful usapa will be in their doh quest
But two FACTS preclude me from doing that:


1. Because you make less money than striking Spirit pilots, you don't have money to bet.

2. Even if you had the cash, you no-integrity scabs can't be trusted to uphold your agreements.

My guess is your a 99 hire who for whatever reason was unable to get hired at a real airline after your furlough ib 01. The majority of your colleagues were able to move on to real careers...what's wrong with you that you thought us air was going to work out for you this time? Could it be you thought you were going to be able to waltz in off the street into a very senior position to an airline {that saved your dead airlines ass} that you never worked for?

your pay and work rules are NEVER going to improve until you accept reality. IfAOL files with SCOTUS doug has no reason to talk to you for 3 years min. Nothing the nmb can do about it either...this is called square 1. At a minimum, the next 2 years will look like the past 2. Remember when usapa promised you a contract in 90 days? What happened?

You'll get a contract when AOL Allows you one. That's a fact.

 

[Guppiedriver]

Thankfully, USAPA was founded NOT as a means of overturning this debacle, but because of the massive, repeated, and non-stop failures of the ALPA gravy train boys who had long since forgotten that they had a real job to do: representing pilots!

Apparently you didn't read the "smoking gun" letter between Bradford and a lawyer that contradicts your statement.

USAPA's Conditions and Restrictions provide generous protections that you should at least consider. In fact, with the number of east pilots still living near your only base, your life will likely be less disrupted with the C&R's than with Nic. Fences make good neighbors, too. Some food for thought.

Could you post the conditions and restrictions for everyone to see? I read them a few times and I'm not seeing how wonderful they are. Be sure to highlight the upgrade formula and explain what that means to a west pilot. Also, don't forget the furlough clause, that one is especially unbiased.

 

[BeCareful!]

Fast: the case was dismissed. No wrong doing. Once dismissed for ripeness they don't continue ruling. "Fairly" does not necessarily mean including the windfall you are seeking. Four words: Wide Range of Reasonableness.

Bucket: at 1330 you shouldn't be drinking and posting. Good god man, get a life. America On Line has nothing to do with this!

Guppie: one man's opinion (even if it's Bradford's) isn't the whole story. Even if it were, nothing changes. You are just as capable of posting the C&R's as am I, so feel free to do so and highlight whatever you wish.

 

[Groucho]

The following question and answer format was taken from the members only section of the USAPA web site. The heading and closing on the article says that this information comes from USAPA legal.

Q. USAPA says it’s not bound by the results of the arbitration; why then would the Company be bound by the results of the LOA 93 arbitration, or any arbitration?
A. The Nicolau arbitration was binding on the parties to it and then only with respect to finalizing a proposal. ALPA remained free to modify or even abandon Nicolau, just as the Ninth Circuit recognized: “We note, as the district court recognized, that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was its predecessor, ALPA.” USAPA was not a party to the Nicolau arbitration, nor were the two pilot groups, each of which was entitled to exercise its veto power in the context of contract ratification. The Ninth Circuit recognized that each pilot group had the right exercise this type of veto.

Q. The majority comment “under pain of” makes it sound like the moment the pilots ratify a contract that does not contain the Nicolau award, it would be a ripe violation of the duty of fair representation; is this true?
A. Not at all. This comment is found in footnote 1. It merely points out that USAPA must negotiate a contract “with the interests of all members” in mind. That merely states the applicable DFR standard and is a point which USAPA has never disputed. The Ninth Circuit’s observation is placed in proper context by the comments that lead up to the “pain” comment:
“forced to bargain for the Nicolau award, any contract USAPA could negotiate would undoubtedly be rejected by its membership … we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interest of all members - both East and West - in mind …”
And outside of the footnote, in the regular body of the decision, the Ninth Circuit made it clear that USAPA is presumably free to negotiate and ratify a contract that does not include Nicolau when it said: “Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.

Q. So what would a lawsuit that really is ripe have to prove once there is a contract?
A. That USAPA had acted in a wholly irrational or arbitrary manner. Under law, USAPA cannot be held liable if it engages in the good faith pursuit of a reasonable basis for resolving the seniority integration issue in the interest of advancing the interests of the entire bargaining unit.

Q. Doesn’t the TA direct the Company to use the Nicolau award and/or ALPA’s seniority proposal? Why is USAPA not bound to this, regardless of what the Court rules?
A. ALPA was bound by its own internal policy to propose Nicolau, but it was not bound to forego negotiation of a ratifiable agreement, nor were the pilots bound to ratify any agreement incorporating the Nicolau Award. As the Ninth Circuit recognized: “We note, as the district court recognized, that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was its predecessor, ALPA.”


Q. Isn’t the Company liable if they agree to a contract that doesn’t include the Nicolau award?
A. No. Both USAPA and the Company have the right to negotiate, or re-negotiate, the terms of any collectively bargained agreement provided that they do not proceed in a wholly irrational or arbitrary manner.


USAPA Legal

 

[clr4theapch]

Stop the TOS violations... read on..

We are getting more complaints about the scab talk on this thread.. many people are getting tired of it... the mods are getting tired of all the reports..

We realize and understand that we have allowed more than the"normally" acceptable discussions in this area due to the Ongoing "Spirit" stike... most believe this is productive and prudent as it relates to the times we live..

With that.. The mods are now asking you all to stop the "scab" calling name calling, use of any persons names on this or any other thread not related to the "current" Spirit action... and we have our limits there already posted..

We do not wish to read this entire thread and start chopping large sections of posts from it.. so PLease don't force our hand in doing so... lets just stop it right here, right now!!

Thanks for your cooperation..

 

[Guppiedriver]

Fast: the case was dismissed. No wrong doing. Once dismissed for ripeness they don't continue ruling. "Fairly" does not necessarily mean including the windfall you are seeking. Four words: Wide Range of Reasonableness.

Bucket: at 1330 you shouldn't be drinking and posting. Good god man, get a life. America On Line has nothing to do with this!

Guppie: one man's opinion (even if it's Bradford's) isn't the whole story. Even if it were, nothing changes. You are just as capable of posting the C&R's as am I, so feel free to do so and highlight whatever you wish.

One man's opinion? He was the founder of USAPA. Without his effort, USAPA would not exist.

Since you are the one that said that we should consider a DOH list with USAPA's wonderful C&R's, I want you to explain how they protect west pilots.

 

[Lear70]

CLR beat me to it.

The next person to use the term "Scab" when it clearly does NOT apply (as in someone who crossed an active picket line and is on "the list") will get a 3 day suspension.

The next person who does it after that gets 10 days.

The next person... a month.

The next... permanent ban.

Enough.

I understand that, for those of you who are personally involved and affected by this fight, it's personal, it's close to home, and it's angering. Both sides. I'm not taking sides one way or another. We're simply saying that the name calling, especially *THAT* name, is going to stop.

Thanks,

/mod

 

[BeCareful!]

CLR beat me to it.

The next person to use the term "Scab" when it clearly does NOT apply (as in someone who crossed an active picket line and is on "the list") will get a 3 day suspension.

The next person who does it after that gets 10 days.

The next person... a month.

The next... permanent ban.

Enough.

I understand that, for those of you who are personally involved and affected by this fight, it's personal, it's close to home, and it's angering. Both sides. I'm not taking sides one way or another. We're simply saying that the name calling, especially *THAT* name, is going to stop.

Thanks,

/mod

Lear70,

That's fantastic news. I applaud your proactive stance on this. As blue collar laborers, we should protect the definition of that word and not let it creep toward a meaningless, catch-all for people who just want to spout off at others they don't agree with.

Thank you.

 

[BeCareful!]

One man's opinion? He was the founder of USAPA. Without his effort, USAPA would not exist.

Since you are the one that said that we should consider a DOH list with USAPA's wonderful C&R's, I want you to explain how they protect west pilots.

Yes Guppie, it's one man's opinion. He was just one of USAPA's founders. And, wrong, without his effort, USAPA would exist. His effort was valuable, and he did a lot of research, but that work certainly would have been completed by someone else. You are spewing rhetoric. Why do you bother with this?

For your second point, you might want me to spend my time in any number of ways, but, well, I only have so much time, so, if you're so sure that the C&R's are such a bad rap for you, go ahead and post them, read them, have them tattooed on your arse, I don't care. Better yet, call your reps and tell them to read them to you. Since the 9th Circuit has said that any contract with the Nic is "un-ratifiable," it probably behooves you to become familiar with what protections are in the C&R's.

Later....

 

[becket]

Lear70,

That's fantastic news. I applaud your proactive stance on this. As blue collar laborers, we should protect the definition of that word and not let it creep toward a meaningless, catch-all for people who just want to spout off at others they don't agree with.

Thank you.

You want to use the majority to change the rules to your benefit, to the full detriment of another pilot at a carrier you never worked at before. No wonder you have problem with the word, the guilty always complain when identified. Me thinks thou doth protest too much.


WWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Guppiedriver]

Yes Guppie, it's one man's opinion. He was just one of USAPA's founders. And, wrong, without his effort, USAPA would exist. His effort was valuable, and he did a lot of research, but that work certainly would have been completed by someone else. You are spewing rhetoric. Why do you bother with this?

For your second point, you might want me to spend my time in any number of ways, but, well, I only have so much time, so, if you're so sure that the C&R's are such a bad rap for you, go ahead and post them, read them, have them tattooed on your arse, I don't care. Better yet, call your reps and tell them to read them to you. Since the 9th Circuit has said that any contract with the Nic is "un-ratifiable," it probably behooves you to become familiar with what protections are in the C&R's.

Later....

I bother with this, because you keep claiming that USAPA was NOT formed to circumvent the Nic....you are wrong and there is proof of that.

Are you really that stupid? Did you read the 9th's ruling?

Also, how well versed on the C&R's are you guys? I haven't looked at them in a while, but I remember being impressed with how many situations they covered to protect west pilots from east invasion of their bases...well, base....while allowing movement as positions open up. I know that a hell of a lot of work went into making sure everyone's interests were considered, within the frame work of when you were hired.

Last guy I flew with said he was on a west JS and the crew actually agreed with him that in many cases, like wanting to retain a PHX base, you guys were better off with the C&R's than with Nic.

You are the one that posted this, right? Back up your BS....explain to me how these C&R's benefit the west.

Talk about Flight Mis-Info...do you really believe what you typed in that last sentence?

I've got two words for you...get help.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Lear70,

That's fantastic news. I applaud your proactive stance on this. As blue collar laborers, we should protect the definition of that word and not let it creep toward a meaningless, catch-all for people who just want to spout off at others they don't agree with.

Thank you.

Finally something I can agree with BeCareful on.
Besides by definition, scabs usually take your job while you are on strike. US Airways wasn't on strike, just on the verge of extinction!

 

[BeCareful!]

You want to use the majority to change the rules to your benefit, to the full detriment of another pilot at a carrier you never worked at before. No wonder you have problem with the word, the guilty always complain when identified. Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

What word are you speaking of?

Scab? No, I have no problem whatsoever with that word. I've applied it to those who have earned that distinction many times over the years. The only problem I have is with the childish misapplication of the word, which West pilots seem prone to doing. I've heard it many times over a long career, sometimes properly asserted, and sometimes misapplied as you are prone to doing. You weaken the labor movement when you do this, but I'm convinced you don't care at all. It's all about you and your windfall. There are those of us who still care about the profession. We will fight ALPA, its inane arbitration (which didn't abide by its own policy), and any rookie who applies the word "scab" inaccurately. I applaud the FI.com moderators for finally saying "enough is enough." You boys have had your fun with this. But a scab is a scab, and none of their characteristics apply to the completely legal, NMB sanctioned actions of your union.

Pay your g'damn dues, talk to your reps, vote, get involved. Or, sit there and spew rhetoric. Your choice.

BC

 

[Lear70]

Please don't use colorful ways to get around the profanity sensors.

Thanks,

/mod

 

[C Festerpuss]

Corngradualtions - Phoenix

I promise not to uze profanity, but sumtimes I has been known to cuss a bit....

Corngraulations is in order for Phoenix because they just passed 1000 members in good standing in USAPA. It has took a long time and there has been some feudin but now they have the numbers to have three (3) Reps.

I believe that the President will appoint a temporary Rep while nominations and elections are held for a permanent Rep.

I am waiting for the opening of the CDD base. That's the "Confederate Dixie Domicile". With the closin of Boston and New York there are too many Yankees in Charlotte.

Cletus

 

[Cloudroller]

Ok WOW, a West pilot spewing about integrity in ones career. Uhmmm..excuse me, but EXACTLY WHERE AND AT WHAT LEVEL was the West pilots contract at through the years???? Did the west pilots continually raise the bar to help the profession to new levels of work rules and pay rates????

Did the west pilots strive and able to attain at any point in their career top of industry pay rates??? and work rules????

At ANY TIME IN THE HISTORY of the West were they able to attain this????????

Or did they simply get on with any passenger carrier they could, agreeing to work at substandard wages and work rules, happy to be flying something with a jet engine on it??? Or happy to have a job after 9/11??? Any pay check will do???

Or do I have amnesia and have forgotten how the West pilots were the cream de la cream and the envy of every other airline out there?????


No I think it was partially the America West that helped LOWER the bar to the wage levels we currently see the industry at. How else would you be at your HIGHEST pay rates ever. And have the best work rules you currently have????

YOU rode the backs of every other pilot out there, and sat on their shoulders, pulling THEM down to your level. Don't give me crap about integrity or how great of a career you were destined for. (Though I guess If I started at San Jose CC and continued to Mesa to Mesa Grande I too would think of the West as an upgrade)

Anyways.... It's sort of like you guys wanting to jump in line and fly those wide bodies to destinations you never dreamed of flying to. At pay rates your airline would never see in your career. Hey I'm sure you were planning on going to a real airline after the industry recovered from 9/11....but here we are.

Lets see - West Coast guys make more than the east coast guys. America West was making money, US Air was not. America West bought US Air. Really if you want to point fingers, why dont you point them at Doug Parker? I have friends on both sides. Its the few inmature guys that get crap started.

Where do you think you would be working right now, if America West did not buy you?

PS - your wide body Airbus are falling apart. And I dont know any West Coast guys that have an interest in flying them or moving to the east coast. Do you think WN has been lowering the bar? It was not too long ago, when their pay was not at the top. What about Frontier, Spirit, or Airtran?

 

[BeCareful!]

Lets see - West Coast guys make more than the east coast guys. America West was making money, US Air was not. America West bought US Air. Really if you want to point fingers, why dont you point them at Doug Parker? I have friends on both sides. Its the few inmature guys that get crap started.

Where do you think you would be working right now, if America West did not buy you?

PS - your wide body Airbus are falling apart. And I dont know any West Coast guys that have an interest in flying them or moving to the east coast. Do you think WN has been lowering the bar? It was not too long ago, when their pay was not at the top. What about Frontier, Spirit, or Airtran?

Oh, well I guess you showed him, haha.

As you said: Let's see - In the big picture, west only makes a little bit more than east. East used to make much higher wages.

And let's see - Who destroyed the east payscales? ALPA did. ALPA at US Air was inane and needed to go. ALPA at AWA was only slightly less inane, but they did get a contract at a difficult time in the industry, so good on them.

However, AWA did NOT buy US Airways. That's just stupid, and everyone knows it. You have any documentation of that?

Accountants are pretty amazing with their craft, but if AWA was so almighty profitable, and US Air was supposedly not, why has AWA's flying shrunk so much after the merge? What happened to LAS? Maybe their books were cooked a bit and USAir's were watered down, not sure, but post merge it's clear that the profit comes from the East operation.

The fact that you don't actually know any west pilots who want to move east should their precious Nicolau windfall come their way doesn't mean they aren't out there. In fact I know of several who live driving distance to PHL. You think they wouldn't cash in on super seniority and eliminate their weekly commute to PHX if they could? Whatever you're smokin', I'm certain it won't pass a piss test.

 

[ableone]

And let's see - Who destroyed the east payscales? ALPA did. ALPA at US Air was inane and needed to go. ALPA at AWA was only slightly less inane, but they did get a contract at a difficult time in the industry, so good on them.

Ah, so ALPA national imposed LOA93 on the poor pilots of USAir? The majority of USAir pilots never voted to accept the lower pay rates?

It was all the fault of a nefarious caped supervillan sporting an ALPA logo on his chest. Got it.

You are forever delusional about what happened let alone about what has not yet happened.