usapa-vote authorized-''thestreet'' -2/20/08

[4defers]

CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- Pilots at US Airways (LCC - Cramer's Take - Stockpickr) are headed toward an election that could oust the Air Line Pilots Association as their union representative, in a particularly timely example of what can happen when there is no agreement on the seniority list in an airline merger.
On Tuesday, the National Mediation Board said it has authorized an election among the approximately 5,300 US Airways pilots. The board responded to an application filed by the US Airline Pilots Association that was supported by about 3,200 signature cards.
While the NMB has not yet set a date, an election could occur as soon as next month, said USAPA spokesman Scott Theuer.
"We are gratified to know that the US Airways pilots will finally be afforded an opportunity to select a new collective bargaining agent," said USAPA President Stephen Bradford, in a prepared statement. ALPA spokesman Peter Janhunen said the 76-year-old union remains the best solution for all US Airways pilots. He called the division in the pilot group "tragic" and said joint negotiations on a new contract offers the best outcome for all parties. "US Airways pilots are losing out" because their attention has been diverted, he said.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Lots of Pilots on these boards complain and complain and complain about ALPA....

Well...here's the result. ALPA could very well be gone from the ALPA stable...and the dues could go up for those that stay...just to keep the budget under control.

 

[TurboAWD]

I understand why the US Air pilots are angry. For many of them their career has been one screw job after another. And perhaps their reps (that they voted for, if they PARTICIPATED in their elections) didn't do the best job.

But it wasn't "ALPA" that screwed them. It's time to move on. USAPA won't make things better for anyone, and will be a loss for the profession.

PLEASE don't let bitterness, anger, and disappointment interfere with logic when you vote on this important issue.

I wish all the best to the west and east guys. You are overdue for a break.

Turbo

 

[ALGFLYR]

I understand why the US Air pilots are angry. For many of them their career has been one screw job after another. And perhaps their reps (that they voted for, if they PARTICIPATED in their elections) didn't do the best job.

But it wasn't "ALPA" that screwed them. It's time to move on. USAPA won't make things better for anyone, and will be a loss for the profession.

PLEASE don't let bitterness, anger, and disappointment interfere with logic when you vote on this important issue.

I wish all the best to the west and east guys. You are overdue for a break.

Turbo

USAPA all the way!!!

 

[wjpilot]

USAPA all the way!!!

Whatever

 

[mcjohn]

I'm seeing the USAPA tags and bright yellow things on most all of the Airways guys in CLT.

It will be interesting to see what comes of this. It will be devastating to ALPA and raise dues for everyone I imagine. Guess the Airway guys are ready to see someone else take it up the ass for a change. Can't say I blame them. It's gonna hurt though.

 

[Redmeat]

Lots of Pilots on these boards complain and complain and complain about ALPA....

Well...here's the result. ALPA could very well be gone from the ALPA stable...and the dues could go up for those that stay...just to keep the budget under control.

Good. Because of age 65, I say fugem!!!

 

[RedDogC130]

Whatever

Got to love little regional guys drinking kool-aid. Like the new guys in a frat house....say something bad about them and they start to get upset.

I personally think that each airline should have their own internal unions such as SWA and AA. How can a huge union such as ALPA represent all these airlines that compete against each other and when merge treat each group fairly. Don't even start on the RJs at one company and screw the mainline who had jets on the route. ALPA is business that is all. They want the money....then let the chips fall. When is the last time since 9/11 has ALPA done something good for this industry with regards to all the airlines they represent.

Go for it USAIR guys....get your own in house and make your home the way you want it.

 

[jke406]

...and the dues could go up for those that stay...just to keep the budget under control.

Although I'm no ALPA fan, they will probably save a ton of money if US Air bails out.

I can only imagine how much money ALPA is dumping in to the campaign at US Air.

 

[SaturnPilot]

I personally think that each airline should have their own internal unions such as SWA and AA. How can a huge union such as ALPA represent all these airlines that compete against each other and when merge treat each group fairly. Don't even start on the RJs at one company and screw the mainline who had jets on the route

Well, since each ALPA airline COMPLETELY governs themselves, there is no conflict of interest. When the Airways MEC makes decisions, there is no "big ALPA man" who comes down from national and says, "no no, you can't do that....that would be bad for MESA". ALPA airlines already have their own internal unions...they just have a common logo.

When is the last time since 9/11 has ALPA done something good for this industry.

well, they give your union countless amounts of advice, which your "independent" union PAYS ALPA for.

How about the FFDO program, preventing Bush's attempts at foreign ownership and open skies, preventing the McCain-Lott bill that would have ELIMINATED our right to strike and decimated our profession, etc. I'm sure USAPA-PAC would have been able to conquer all of those challenges though.

 

[jke406]

Maybe USAPA would do better representing the majority of its membership than ALPA did on Age 65.

They certainly can do no worse.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I personally think that each airline should have their own internal unions such as SWA and AA.

Both SWAPA and APA buy services from ALPA. Without ALPA, your inhouse union would be weaker.

How can a huge union such as ALPA represent all these airlines that compete against each other and when merge treat each group fairly.

How can the 50 States function as a union? Who does the Federal gov't think they are?

Besides, what does SWAPA do on CapHill? What are you doing as a member of SWAPA to make the profession of Air Line Pilots better?

Or are you just about you and your little niche?

Don't even start on the RJs at one company and screw the mainline who had jets on the route. ALPA is business that is all.

Then what is SWAPA? I suggest you guys get involved. Your domestic biz model is cute, but the international aviation market is going to hit you like a tsnumani in less than 10 years, maybe five. Your politically effectiveness in the national scence is weak... and non existent in the intrnational scene.

The low cost model being copied world wide is NOT SWA. Its Europe's Ryan Air... and you cannot compete with that....

They want the money....then let the chips fall. When is the last time since 9/11 has ALPA done something good for this industry with regards to all the airlines they represent.

You wanna play that game...?? when was the last time the US military did anything since WWII? I say that to get you to think... not to dis the MIL.

I don't need the DOD to report all the activity they are doing to let me know my tax dollars are giving me a return on my national security investment...

ALPA, Int'l does more for you as a SWA pilot than you know.

I suggest

www.IFALPA.org

www.ALPA.org you might not have member access, but you can see the public site

www.ttd.org

Go for it USAIR guys....get your own in house and make your home the way you want it.

Just like the SWAPA guys.... don't worry...when the international market forces (aka the wolf) blows down your straw house... you can stay in the bricks....

my point? ALPA isn't better... in fact we need everyone working together to keep the profession. The in houses unions and ALPA need to figure how to work together... not seperate....

 

[flygirlqt]

I personally think that each airline should have their own internal unions such as SWA and AA. How can a huge union such as ALPA represent all these airlines that compete against each other and when merge treat each group fairly. Don't even start on the RJs at one company and screw the mainline who had jets on the route. ALPA is business that is all. They want the money....then let the chips fall. When is the last time since 9/11 has ALPA done something good for this industry with regards to all the airlines they represent.

I think that is a perfect description of the main problem with ALPA. But one step further, there is no business on the planet that has guaranteed income no matter how poorly they treat their customers.

No matter what ALPA does, they are guaranteed their income therefore no need to change their ways. The only way ALPA will actually change is when they actually have to worry about earning their dues rather than relying on mandatory payments or you lose your job.

There needs to be a radical overhaul of the association before it is to late. They are disenfranchising to many pilots.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Guess the Airway guys are ready to see someone else take it up the ass for a change. Can't say I blame them. It's gonna hurt though.

So they choose the AWA pilots?

I can't see how such a poorly thought out and executed idea as USAPA can exist long-term.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I think that is a perfect description of the main problem with ALPA. But one step further, there is no business on the planet that has guaranteed income no matter how poorly they treat their customers.

Actually, each MEC is its own in house union. Take the UASIAR guys.... they controlled thier own fate. Were advised not to by ALPA Nat'l and now... who gets blamed... ALPA National.

You love to hate ALPA Nat'l over age 60. If ALPA national didn't exist... how would age 60 have gone down?

No matter what ALPA does, they are guaranteed their income therefore no need to change their ways. The only way ALPA will actually change is when they actually have to worry about earning their dues rather than relying on mandatory payments or you lose your job.

Wrong...again. ALPA is getting a wake up call right now with USAPA.... its not the money.. its the effectiveness.. perhaps you can tie to the money to effectiveness...

Their are oganziatinal problems and old school mindset problems at ALPA.... but that is not all..and if you focus on that..... things will never change...

There needs to be a radical overhaul of the association before it is to late. They are disenfranchising to many pilots.

Agreed... what are you willing to do to help protect the profession?

 

[Wiskey Driver]

The real sad part about this is that the company is going to give usapa should they win a very rude awakening. I have this from the highest source. Usapa will have been a huge waste of time and pilots money AGAIN!

WD.

 

[Deadalus]

USAPA all the way!!!

All the way off the cliff, moron.

 

[Deadalus]

Got to love little regional guys drinking kool-aid. Like the new guys in a frat house....say something bad about them and they start to get upset.

I personally think that each airline should have their own internal unions such as SWA and AA. How can a huge union such as ALPA represent all these airlines that compete against each other and when merge treat each group fairly. Don't even start on the RJs at one company and screw the mainline who had jets on the route. ALPA is business that is all. They want the money....then let the chips fall. When is the last time since 9/11 has ALPA done something good for this industry with regards to all the airlines they represent.

Go for it USAIR guys....get your own in house and make your home the way you want it.

If their intentions were pure I'd agree. They're doing this to overturn the seniority decision, something that can't be overturned. A lot of lawyers are going to make a lot of money though.

 

[Tomct]

Stupid east guys wasting more time and money over something that will NEVER CHANGE!! Get over it you jackAzzes, focus on getting a better contract instead of wasting everyone's time with this LAME UNION attempt that will do nothing but end up BAD!
You idiots do realize that Parker is laughing all the way home right? Stupid Azzes!

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

All the way off the cliff, moron.

exactly! fdx has been down this road...assessments galore and no war chest...the company will drain this union quickly....these guys are already 30 cents away from a quarter...good luck!

 

[MK82Man]

RedDog -- if this was about a unified group of US Airways pilots wanting to get rid of ALPA for some reason, that would be one thing. But that isn't the case. It is about 2200 East guys upset about a Federal Binding Arbitration Award and according to the East Chairman's vow "to never let the NIC award see the light of day." Please understand this isn't about the new US Airways looking for a new direction, this is about 60% of the group looking for an advantage over 40% of the group, the America West pilots. So "go for it" does not go over well with 1800 pilots at America West.

For al the ALPA members who are complaining about wasted time and money, you got that right. You will never get a full accounting of the millions of dollars the East pilots are wasting in your dues money. The FPL, the hotel and meal bills, etc, is must just be a staggering sum. Could have been spent on something much more important. What a waste. No USAPA.

 

[MCDU]

Last count East has over 3600 pilots on their list. Most junior is 3600 plus based on latest award. So it is double the size the AWA. Sorry, ALPA is on its way out. The numbers the East have are way too big. Bottom E190 Capt. is sen 3155 per last award. This is with zero growth in the last 3 years.
Anyone know how many 190 are on the property?
Marty

33 % AWA 66% AAA
According to elig. pilots there will be a little over 5200 pilots that will get to vote.

 

[Green]

USAPA's whole purpose as a union is to utilize the numbers of the majority to screw the minority. What a noble cause....lol...You guys/gals are pathetic. This is nothing more than a seniority grab and the saddest part is that you are willing to undercut the profession to try and get Parker to agree to letting you steal AWA seniority. Apparently honor, integrity, duty are not guiding principles for at least 3200 East pilots. You all should be ashamed of yourselves.



Subject: Overturning Nicolau Award
Author: XXXXX XXXXXXXX
Date: 12 Feb 2008 01:28 PM

As many of you know, we have been promising for some time to overturn the Nicolau Award. Our law firm has from the very beginning of this process assured us that this would be “highly, highly, likely” Through a more thorough review of the legal landscape and court precedences we have to come to realize that overturning the award has a slim chance of success.

I know that this will be disheartening news to many of you, particularly when we are so close to the NMB vote allowing us to control our future. Take heart. Our plan to protect your career has now shifted from completely overturning the award, to an approach which would essentially make an end-run around the list. This list will still be out there, however our intention is to make it very hard to ever implement it. This is an approach which really is “highly, highly likely.”

Some of you may be questioning our change in focus with respect to the Nicolau award. We have had a titanic shift in thinking with regard to our herculean effort to get you the protections you are rightly justified in having concerns. Let me take the time to explain our plan moving forward.

Once we become the bargaining agent for all US Airways pilots, we will take over contract negotiations. As we have reported to you (and supported by past court cases) your seniority does not “belong” to you. Rakestraw v. United demonstrated this (see PHL Roadshow videos). Seniority is a negotiable item, and is only good until the next barganing cycle. ALPA has set this legal precedent itself. In the United case ALPA paid United $200 million to correct the seniority of the pilots that honored the picket lines. Moving the 539 scabs behind the 570 pilots that honored the strike set the standard for the cost associated with renegotiating seniority. $200million divided by 539 pilots comes out to approximately $371,058 per pilot. With approximately 1800 America West pilots, we’ll need about $668 Million to re-order the seniority list. While this may seem like an unrealistic amount of money, please realize that you won’t have to pay for ANY of it.

Doug Parker has shown time and time again that this merger was simply about finances. Well, two can play at that game. You may recall his cost-neutral stance when his negotiators were last at the barganing table. Our plan is simple: give Doug what he wants, and we get what we want. A cost neutral contract will easily save the company $668 million. All that we ask for in return is to order the seniority list on a date of hire basis, with reasonable adjustments made for time of service. True, this will cause SOME reordering of our own seniority list, but I think we can all agree that those of us that loose a little will benefit from the fact that most of us will gain 1800 numbers of furlough protection.

To close out this post, and to further demostrate to you how different USAPA is from ALPA I want to share with you several court summaries that we received from one of our pilot volunteers. I think they demostrate that we really pay attention to input from our pilot group, that we are not so set in our ways that we can’t change direction, and that we truly are a transparent union. Some of the language is not at polished as we strive for in our communications, but I wanted you to see the unfiltered emotion which drives our great movement. When reading these summaries ask yourself this question: “Would ALPA allow information that is critical of itself to be widely distributed?” I think we all know the answer to that question, and that is why we were able to submit over 3000 cards to the NMB. Remember: USAPA is about giving US Airways pilots the right to make a choice!

 

[Bringupthebird]

Last count East has over 3600 pilots on their list. Most junior is 3600 plus based on latest award. So it is double the size the AWA. Sorry, ALPA is on its way out. The numbers the East have are way too big. Bottom E190 Capt. is sen 3155 per last award. This is with zero growth in the last 3 years.

I hope they enjoy their "spoils". I have a feeling they will recall these as the good old days.

 

[ALGFLYR]

Green posted this supposed "letter" in another thread.

Again, this letter was NOT put out by USAPA. My bet it was put out by ALPA and they are trying to pass it off as USAPA...

 

[CEO silly sap]

I'm seeing the USAPA tags and bright yellow things on most all of the Airways guys in CLT.

It will be interesting to see what comes of this. It will be devastating to ALPA and raise dues for everyone I imagine. Guess the Airway guys are ready to see someone else take it up the ass for a change. Can't say I blame them. It's gonna hurt though.

I expected more from the PSA pilots, you would think an independent Union would be the last thing they want...Barkley is turning in his grave and Russell Ray is probably doing the same.

 

[Propsync]

I wonder how much more services like aeromedical will cost an experienced pilot group. And insurance (short-term, loss of license, etc.). I wonder if it will take 3-4 percent to get just the same level of service?

I don't think it will cost ALPA much. Less expenditures as a result of them not being in ALPA, and a revenue stream for services they (USAPA) will not be able to provide.

The unity will be the most costly. This is just one more step back for your profession. Every time one is added, just makes it that much tougher to climb back up. Good luck.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I wonder how much more services like aeromedical will cost an experienced pilot group. And insurance (short-term, loss of license, etc.). I wonder if it will take 3-4 percent to get just the same level of service?--->Not really...it will cost the same as it does the SWAPA pilots, the APA pilots and other independent pilot groups...

I don't think it will cost ALPA much. --->As it doesn't cost APA, nor SWAPA much either. Don't make this more complicated than it has to be.

The unity will be the most costly.--->They've got nowhere to go but up...the "unity" at the combined US Airways isn't there anyway, regardless if the pilots are represented by ALPA or USAPA. The sad part is...management already knows that This is just one more step back for your profession.--->If it wasn't a step back for the profession when the AA pilots left ALPA, or when the SWA pilots decided on an "in house" union...it won't be in this case either.

 

[Andy]

You love to hate ALPA Nat'l over age 60. If ALPA national didn't exist... how would age 60 have gone down?

Likely, it wouldn't have 'gone down.' And ALPA national pushed extremely hard to ensure that 2 over 60s could fly domestically. That surely wouldn't have gone down had it not been for ALPA.

The best thing that could happen from all of this is that USAirways pilots cede from ALPA. ALPA has outlived it's usefulness and has become increasingly corrupt. They're making Jimmy Hoffa's Teamsters look like choir boys.
ALPA's become a part of the problem, not the solution. It either needs to get it's house in order QUICKLY or may very well die. And I see the death of ALPA, as it currently exists, as a very good thing for all pilots. They're a bunch of snake oil salesmen that push personal agendas in the name of unity.

As for the dues issue, ALPA charges 1.95%. My understanding is that APA and SWAPA charge 1%. I don't see any additional 'value' for double the dues.

So while ALPA blowhards sit there and sing the praises of ALPA, they ignore the growing complaints from the masses. I'm tired of hearing 'let them eat cake' from Herndon. Perhaps prater and the rest of national need to be introduced to Dr Antoine Louis' device.

 

[ferlo]

USAPA's whole purpose as a union is to utilize the numbers of the majority to screw the minority. What a noble cause....lol...You guys/gals are pathetic. This is nothing more than a seniority grab and the saddest part is that you are willing to undercut the profession to try and get Parker to agree to letting you steal AWA seniority. Apparently honor, integrity, duty are not guiding principles for at least 3200 East pilots. You all should be ashamed of yourselves.



Subject: Overturning Nicolau Award
Author: XXXXX XXXXXXXX
Date: 12 Feb 2008 01:28 PM

As many of you know, we have been promising for some time to overturn the Nicolau Award. Our law firm has from the very beginning of this process assured us that this would be “highly, highly, likely” Through a more thorough review of the legal landscape and court precedences we have to come to realize that overturning the award has a slim chance of success.

I know that this will be disheartening news to many of you, particularly when we are so close to the NMB vote allowing us to control our future. Take heart. Our plan to protect your career has now shifted from completely overturning the award, to an approach which would essentially make an end-run around the list. This list will still be out there, however our intention is to make it very hard to ever implement it. This is an approach which really is “highly, highly likely.”

Some of you may be questioning our change in focus with respect to the Nicolau award. We have had a titanic shift in thinking with regard to our herculean effort to get you the protections you are rightly justified in having concerns. Let me take the time to explain our plan moving forward.

Once we become the bargaining agent for all US Airways pilots, we will take over contract negotiations. As we have reported to you (and supported by past court cases) your seniority does not “belong” to you. Rakestraw v. United demonstrated this (see PHL Roadshow videos). Seniority is a negotiable item, and is only good until the next barganing cycle. ALPA has set this legal precedent itself. In the United case ALPA paid United $200 million to correct the seniority of the pilots that honored the picket lines. Moving the 539 scabs behind the 570 pilots that honored the strike set the standard for the cost associated with renegotiating seniority. $200million divided by 539 pilots comes out to approximately $371,058 per pilot. With approximately 1800 America West pilots, we’ll need about $668 Million to re-order the seniority list. While this may seem like an unrealistic amount of money, please realize that you won’t have to pay for ANY of it.

Doug Parker has shown time and time again that this merger was simply about finances. Well, two can play at that game. You may recall his cost-neutral stance when his negotiators were last at the barganing table. Our plan is simple: give Doug what he wants, and we get what we want. A cost neutral contract will easily save the company $668 million. All that we ask for in return is to order the seniority list on a date of hire basis, with reasonable adjustments made for time of service. True, this will cause SOME reordering of our own seniority list, but I think we can all agree that those of us that loose a little will benefit from the fact that most of us will gain 1800 numbers of furlough protection.

To close out this post, and to further demostrate to you how different USAPA is from ALPA I want to share with you several court summaries that we received from one of our pilot volunteers. I think they demostrate that we really pay attention to input from our pilot group, that we are not so set in our ways that we can’t change direction, and that we truly are a transparent union. Some of the language is not at polished as we strive for in our communications, but I wanted you to see the unfiltered emotion which drives our great movement. When reading these summaries ask yourself this question: “Would ALPA allow information that is critical of itself to be widely distributed?” I think we all know the answer to that question, and that is why we were able to submit over 3000 cards to the NMB. Remember: USAPA is about giving US Airways pilots the right to make a choice!

This is precisely why USAPA is nothing but a SCAB organization. They want to "buy" their fantasy seniority list for 700 million dollars. That's intentionally working for sub-union wages. That in turn, MAKES ALL USAPA SUPPORTERS/VOTERS SCABS