USAPA Trial

[DiverDriver]

My point is that it was a business transaction, those pilots have no rights to be attached to any Airways seniority list because of it. I'm not bashing that pilot group, but the few that think they deserve some kind of 'flow" rights are in never, never land.

Did i happen to mention that i realized that?

And AWA and USAir merging wasn't a business transaction? I just find what people define as "saving" or "merging" are not hard definitions but really fuzzy logic.

And don't take my assertions seriously as in I'm seeking placement on your seniority list. The point I'm making in this whole East/West seniority list arguement is that anyone can argue anything. It seems everyone is just trying to be the one shouting loudest so they seem most right.

ALPA East was wrong for strict DOH only. AWA was wrong thinking Nic was right if MidAtlantic was left off the list. Their planes were on USAir cert. If West wants support/sympathy then they should right that wrong too.

IMO of course.

 

[Lampshade]

The MDA might have been on the cert but the pilots were on furlough from mainline. Furlough = zero seniority.

 

[FDJ2]

ALPA East was wrong for strict DOH only. AWA was wrong thinking Nic was right if MidAtlantic was left off the list. Their planes were on USAir cert. If West wants support/sympathy then they should right that wrong too.

IMO of course.

Rights and wrongs were settled by the agreed upon process with the agreed upon arbitrator making the call. Now it's time for folks to honor final and binding and move on.

 

[TWA Dude]

AWA was wrong thinking Nic was right if MidAtlantic was left off the list.

What we think is irrelevent. Nicolau knew all about the MDA pilots (furloughees) and he made his decision. That's what arbitrators do.

 

[DustyBottoms]

What we think is irrelevent. Nicolau knew all about the MDA pilots (furloughees) and he made his decision. That's what arbitrators do.

That's what I don't get! Two parties will NEVER agree on something that they are so emotional about. I don't understand what could be more fair than the process that took place to get the combined seniority list. There were three NEUTRAL people who heard each side's case, talked it over, and decided on a list! Why is it that the East pilots are still back at square one, trying to tell the West pilots what fair should be?

And for Crzipilot to say that majority vote ("democratic") is fair in this situtation, is simply wrong. If that was the case, then why even have a process; whether it be DOH, ratio's, arbitrators or whatever, in place??? If a majority vote was THE fair way to do a list, then the smaller of the two pilot groups should just resign themselves to being stapled to the bottom.

I think most of the East pilots will just never get it... that's what I'm resigned to.

 

[m80drvr]

And AWA and USAir merging wasn't a business transaction? I just find what people define as "saving" or "merging" are not hard definitions but really fuzzy logic.

And don't take my assertions seriously as in I'm seeking placement on your seniority list. The point I'm making in this whole East/West seniority list arguement is that anyone can argue anything. It seems everyone is just trying to be the one shouting loudest so they seem most right.

ALPA East was wrong for strict DOH only. AWA was wrong thinking Nic was right if MidAtlantic was left off the list. Their planes were on USAir cert. If West wants support/sympathy then they should right that wrong too.

IMO of course.

Sooooooo using your line of thinking explain this.

A furloughed 2 and 1/2 year Mainline pilot, hired in 1999, decides not to go to MidAtlantic because he has a better job elsewhere. MidAtlantic cannot find enough takers, cause the pay sucks so they offer the positions to the WO pilots in 2003 The WO pilots stay at midAlantic for 4 years. You now think it's fair that the WO pilot is slotted ABOVE a pilot that actually flew a mainlie airplane even though 1. the WO pilot NEVER applied to USAir, 2. the WO pilot was hired YEARS AFTER the furloughed Mainline pilot.

Wake up man you KNEW MidAtlantic was NOT mainline. Everyone know MDA was a WO carrier. You're just trying to grab more more seniority that you don't deserve. You fit in well as a member of the PO'd fo club. You should be proud.

 

[PHXFLYR]

That's what I don't get! Two parties will NEVER agree on something that they are so emotional about. I don't understand what could be more fair than the process that took place to get the combined seniority list. There were three NEUTRAL people who heard each side's case, talked it over, and decided on a list! Why is it that the East pilots are still back at square one, trying to tell the West pilots what fair should be?

And for Crzipilot to say that majority vote ("democratic") is fair in this situtation, is simply wrong. If that was the case, then why even have a process; whether it be DOH, ratio's, arbitrators or whatever, in place??? If a majority vote was THE fair way to do a list, then the smaller of the two pilot groups should just resign themselves to being stapled to the bottom.

I think most of the East pilots will just never get it... that's what I'm resigned to.

...and they never will.

PHXFLYR

 

[FR8mastr]

Sooooooo using your line of thinking explain this.

A furloughed 2 and 1/2 year Mainline pilot, hired in 1999, decides not to go to MidAtlantic because he has a better job elsewhere. MidAtlantic cannot find enough takers, cause the pay sucks so they offer the positions to the WO pilots in 2003 The WO pilots stay at midAlantic for 4 years. You now think it's fair that the WO pilot is slotted ABOVE a pilot that actually flew a mainlie airplane even though 1. the WO pilot NEVER applied to USAir, 2. the WO pilot was hired YEARS AFTER the furloughed Mainline pilot.

Wake up man you KNEW MidAtlantic was NOT mainline. Everyone know MDA was a WO carrier. You're just trying to grab more more seniority that you don't deserve. You fit in well as a member of the PO'd fo club. You should be proud.

First off there were no Wo pilots at MDA until 2004, all were furloughed by may 2006. Not exactly 4 years, no?
MDA was NEVER a WO, they tried the FAA said no way, no matter how much you try to spin it, the fact remains!
I have no problem if your opinion is you believe everything the East claims is BS, as I know that makes your position more believable in your eyes. But you can not fabricate crap to try an justify your position, just man up and admit you want those guys removed so there is no chance they could ever effect your position. Just like your old MEC's position that the WO should be removed, not just placed at the bottom of the list.
Claims of integrity and pure as the driven snow rightousness just dont hold up when you start making crap up.
Most people dont buy it when one side claims they are 100% correct and the other is 100% wrong, as that is never the case.

 

[FDJ2]

Most people dont buy it when one side claims they are 100% correct and the other is 100% wrong, as that is never the case.

Most people also know what final and binding means.

 

[DiverDriver]

Wake up man you KNEW MidAtlantic was NOT mainline. Everyone know MDA was a WO carrier. You're just trying to grab more more seniority that you don't deserve. You fit in well as a member of the PO'd fo club. You should be proud.

I don't work at USAir, MDA, or AWA. I just commented on the arguements made. Thanks for ASSuming something.

As for the MDA being a wholy owned and not mainline do PSA and PDT have seperate operating certificates or are they on USAir cert too?

 

[TWA Dude]

It's simple: MDA was on the the USAir ops cert but was operated as a seperate entity with no ability to crossbid to mainline. Whether this was right or wrong is not for AWA pilots to say. But MDA was not mainline.

 

[FR8mastr]

It's simple: MDA was on the the USAir ops cert but was operated as a seperate entity with no ability to crossbid to mainline. Whether this was right or wrong is not for AWA pilots to say. But MDA was not mainline.

A west pilot cant bid for a 330 position as of this moment, so I guess they are not real Airways pilots.

Contractual language does not always define who you actually work for.

West pilot
cant cross bid east widebodys
Yet somehow this pilot works for US Air, gets paid by US Air, uses US Air call sign, operates under the US Air certificate, is on the US Air seniority roster, (position obviously up for argument) but on the list.

 

[Metrojet]

That's what I don't get! Two parties will NEVER agree on something that they are so emotional about. I don't understand what could be more fair than the process that took place to get the combined seniority list. There were three NEUTRAL people who heard each side's case, talked it over, and decided on a list! Why is it that the East pilots are still back at square one, trying to tell the West pilots what fair should be?

And for Crzipilot to say that majority vote ("democratic") is fair in this situation, is simply wrong. If that was the case, then why even have a process; whether it be DOH, ratio's, arbitrators or whatever, in place??? If a majority vote was THE fair way to do a list, then the smaller of the two pilot groups should just resign themselves to being stapled to the bottom.

I think most of the East pilots will just never get it... that's what I'm resigned to.

Yes - there was three neutral people (if you call three ALPA pilots from various airlines each with possibly their own agenda) who heard each side's case - but if you re-read the award - it was not unanimous - one person dissented.

Metrojet

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Yawwwwnnnnn....somebody wake me when we find out what civilians think of rich airline pilots whining, crying, complaining about each other.

 

[TWA Dude]

A west pilot cant bid for a 330 position as of this moment, so I guess they are not real Airways pilots.

Funny you should say that. My W2, paystub and direct-deposit info still reads "America West". So you're right, despite my badge and the paint job on my airplanes I'm actually not a US Airways pilot. I'll try to hide my disappointment.

But back to what I wrote, I'll type it again slowly. MDA was seperate from mainline because that's how management operated it. How you feel about it is irrelevent. Arbitrator Nicolau fully understood the situation when he ruled on it.

 

[Carl S.]

MDA aircraft had a big "EXPRESS" written on the side! No mainline active employee has ever flown an aircraft with "EXPRESS" on the side. Could you bid the airbus while employed at the elite"Embraer Division"? Spin it all you want, you were not an active mainline pilot while at MDA.

 

[DustyBottoms]

Yes - there was three neutral people (if you call three ALPA pilots from various airlines each with possibly their own agenda) who heard each side's case - but if you re-read the award - it was not unanimous - one person dissented.

Metrojet

Correct me if I'm wrong, I have good memory, it's just short, but weren't there only two ALPA neutrals, and one neutral arbitrator? And the only dissent was that one of the pilot neutrals thought that the furloughed east guys should be included in the ratioed list.

So, even if the list went according to the oddball, it would still look nothing like a DOH list.

Typical answer though: "the arbitrators were biased". Apparently everyone who disagrees with the East is either biased or high on something.

 

[Bringupthebird]

A west pilot cant bid for a 330 position as of this moment, so I guess they are not real Airways pilots.

Hallelujah!!

 

[m80drvr]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I have good memory, it's just short, but weren't there only two ALPA neutrals, and one neutral arbitrator? And the only dissent was that one of the pilot neutrals thought that the furloughed east guys should be included in the ratioed list.

So, even if the list went according to the oddball, it would still look nothing like a DOH list.

Typical answer though: "the arbitrators were biased". Apparently everyone who disagrees with the East is either biased or high on something.

I WILL correct you.....because you ARE wrong about the opinion of the neutrals. The neutrals agreed with the NIC decision overall.

One of the neutrals did have a problem with the pilots that had been recalled AFTER the merger/buyout was announced, after the PID date I believe. He thought that those and ONLY those pilots should have been considered active. Nic and the other neutral realized that the ONLY reason those pilots were recalled was due to the merger/buyout. Otherwise they would still be on the street OR USAir would be out of business. The opinion of the neutral did NOT include ALL furloughed pilots.

You are correct in that it was NIC and two neutrals.

 

[Axel]

...
Most people dont buy it when one side claims they are 100% correct and the other is 100% wrong, as that is never the case.

The only clear sound to ever come out of this sea of noise, right there.