USAPA Card Count

[zymotic]

How is the card total looking? The USAPA website says it removed the total. Does anyone know what it was before they removed it? How many cards do they need to have an official vote? Is there a deadline to get the cards or can they wait infefinitely?

 

[trainer8]

How is the card total looking? The USAPA website says it removed the total. Does anyone know what it was before they removed it? How many cards do they need to have an official vote? Is there a deadline to get the cards or can they wait infefinitely?

"Mums the word"

You'll hear soon.

 

[PCL_128]

They need 35% of the combined pilot group to sign cards in order for a vote to take place. For the actual vote itself, 50% +1 vote of the combined pilot group would be required to decertify ALPA and put this USAPA nonsense in place. The cards expire one year after signing.

 

[OnTheDole]

"Mums the word"

You'll hear soon.

sh_t or get off the pot already

 

[ironspud]

From another board...

Dear fellow US Airways pilots,

My name is Mxxx Txxxxx and I’m a Charlotte-based 757 First Officer; I am also the interim Vice-President for USAPA. You may recall that I and the other USAPA officers have been described in a Herndon communiqué as having agendas (we do – to gain better representation for US Airways pilots) and “self-appointed.” By their definition ALPA founder Dave Behncke was also “self-appointed,” so we’ll happily accept the slur from the Continental Captain.

I want you to know that USAPA has sufficient cards in hand to force an election. Nine out of ten active East pilots plus many LTD and LOA pilots have submitted their cards. Last month I encouraged my fellow USAPA leaders to commit to an NMB filing this month. While we clearly have the cards, information has found its way to us in the last week suggesting that the existing bargaining agent is delaying a move to place our MEC or one or more of our LECs into trusteeship until we file, as they don’t want to provoke an additional margin of submitted cards. We have also been advised to expect to see an artificially inflated pilot list provided by the Company to the NMB. With these factors in mind, I have asked my fellow officers to delay our filing until next week as I am very interested in seeing what may transpire from the Washington meetings. If you are still sitting on the fence, delay no longer – you are clearly being played by ALPA.

For the Charlotte pilots; please do not be harsh with Marshall, Lance or Lyle for their recent letters to you. I believe they have made personal determinations that trusteeship is not a good idea for them at this juncture and are doing what is required to avoid it. Their actions do not materially affect USAPA’s course.

We encourage our MEC members to hang together. Herndon must know that if one elected rep is “having a problem,” the entire MEC is “having a problem.” We do not want to see our elected reps divided, conquered and then hung separately.

We’ll file soon. In the meantime it will be interesting for all of us to watch events unfold at ALPA’s Washington “loyalty” meetings.

Take care,
MxxxTxxxxx
USAPA Interim VP

 

[Guppiedriver]

Dear fellow US Airways pilots,

My name is Mark Thorpe and I’m a Charlotte-based 757 First Officer; I am also the interim Vice-President for USAPA. You may recall that I and the other USAPA officers have been described in a Herndon communiqué as having agendas (we do – to gain better representation for US Airways pilots) and “self-appointed.” By their definition ALPA founder Dave Behncke was also “self-appointed,” so we’ll happily accept the slur from the Continental Captain.

I want you to know that USAPA has sufficient cards in hand to force an election. Nine out of ten active East pilots plus many LTD and LOA pilots have submitted their cards. Last month I encouraged my fellow USAPA leaders to commit to an NMB filing this month. While we clearly have the cards, information has found its way to us in the last week suggesting that the existing bargaining agent is delaying a move to place our MEC or one or more of our LECs into trusteeship until we file, as they don’t want to provoke an additional margin of submitted cards. We have also been advised to expect to see an artificially inflated pilot list provided by the Company to the NMB. With these factors in mind, I have asked my fellow officers to delay our filing until next week as I am very interested in seeing what may transpire from the Washington meetings. If you are still sitting on the fence, delay no longer – you are clearly being played by ALPA.

For the Charlotte pilots; please do not be harsh with Marshall, Lance or Lyle for their recent letters to you. I believe they have made personal determinations that trusteeship is not a good idea for them at this juncture and are doing what is required to avoid it. Their actions do not materially affect USAPA’s course.

We encourage our MEC members to hang together. Herndon must know that if one elected rep is “having a problem,” the entire MEC is “having a problem.” We do not want to see our elected reps divided, conquered and then hung separately.

We’ll file soon. In the meantime it will be interesting for all of us to watch events unfold at ALPA’s Washington “loyalty” meetings.

Take care,
Mark Thorpe
USAPA Interim VP

 

[Green]

They need 35% of the combined pilot group to sign cards in order for a vote to take place. For the actual vote itself, 50% +1 vote of the combined pilot group would be required to decertify ALPA and put this USAPA nonsense in place. The cards expire one year after signing.

i think you are slightly wrong there. They need 50%+ 1 of the total pilots to sign a card in order to get the nmb to call a vote. Then it will just be a majority vote wins. So if 30% vote Alpa and 24% vote USAPA then alpa remains and there is a moretoreum on further votes for 2 years. I believe if it goes to a vote and less than 25% of the membership votes either way then we lose all union representation.

Bad move all around. I think it is driven by anger and bitterness rather than a sound business decision. Hopefully most pilots will consider their family's future before costing themselves thousands by voting in USAPA.

 

[PCL_128]

i think you are slightly wrong there. They need 50%+ 1 of the total pilots to sign a card in order to get the nmb to call a vote. Then it will just be a majority vote wins. So if 30% vote Alpa and 24% vote USAPA then alpa remains and there is a moretoreum on further votes for 2 years. I believe if it goes to a vote and less than 25% of the membership votes either way then we lose all union representation.

Bad move all around. I think it is driven by anger and bitterness rather than a sound business decision. Hopefully most pilots will consider their family's future before costing themselves thousands by voting in USAPA.

Thanks for the correction. The 35% figure I gave earlier is for normal representational elections for pilot groups that don't already have a legal bargaining representative under the RLA. For groups that already have representation and wish to change that representation, then 50% +1 cards are required to hold a vote. If a majority of the group votes in the election for some form of representation, then the representative with the most votes will be the representative. If less than a majority votes, then you lose all union representation. So, if 80% of the combined pilot group votes, and the vote splits 41% ALPA and 39% USAPA, then ALPA will remain the representative. The moratorium on an election only lasts one year, by the way.

 

[zymotic]

Nine out of ten active East pilots plus many LTD and LOA pilots have submitted their cards.

...as they don’t want to provoke an additional margin of submitted cards.

Perhaps I'm reading these statements wrong. If nine out of ten East pilots submitted cards how would anyone be worried about pushing the last ten percent over the edge? Nine out of ten is way more than needed, right?

 

[PCL_128]

They're lying. There isn't the slightest chance in hell that they've gotten 90% of the East pilots to submit cards. This group spreads more lies than the RJDC.

 

[zymotic]

Is the USAPA a union for US Airways pilots or East US Airways pilots? I've just finished reading the frequently asked questions section on their website. I didn't see any reference to the West pilots.

On the front page it reads: "An independent, carrier-specific union with only the interests of US Airways pilots in mind " and "Merger policy: as provided for in USAPA By-Laws seniority integration will occur by date-of-hire with reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectations."

If USAPA is able to push the new union through then it seems two possibilities exist. The East gets date of hire since they outnumber the West in votes or the East and West negotiate again and probably send it to an arbitrator. The first possiblity seems unfair and the second seems redundant since it has already been done.

 

[iflyhigh]

zymotic:

The West USAirways pilots, a vast majority, want nothing to do with USAPA. They are not out to represent all US Airways pilots. They are out to screw every west pilot they can.

In regards to date of hire policy set forth in the USAPA by laws. Unforunately for USAPA, an abritrator's award does not go away. The ruling for seniority integration has taken place, and this ruling follows you, no matter what union represents the group. The only way to get rid of the ruling is to go to court and have it thrown out. This could take years, as the west guys will fight it. I also believe management would fight it, as this delays a contract again. Never in history has an arbitrator award been tossed.

 

[weasel_lips]

zymotic:

The West USAirways pilots, a vast majority, want nothing to do with USAPA. They are not out to represent all US Airways pilots. They are out to screw every west pilot they can.

In regards to date of hire policy set forth in the USAPA by laws. Unforunately for USAPA, an abritrator's award does not go away. The ruling for seniority integration has taken place, and this ruling follows you, no matter what union represents the group. The only way to get rid of the ruling is to go to court and have it thrown out. This could take years, as the west guys will fight it. I also believe management would fight it, as this delays a contract again. Never in history has an arbitrator award been tossed.

http://www.arb-forum.com/faq.aspx?faq=896

Q: Can I appeal a binding arbitration decision?

A: Arbitration decisions can be contested in court. Grounds exist under the Federal Arbitration Act and applicable state acts to challenge arbitration decisions. While the terms of some arbitration agreements call for the appointment of a specialized appellate arbitration panel to review contested decisions (such as in the FORUM’s New Jersey No-Fault program), even these “second level” arbitration decisions can be reviewed by a court if necessary.

A binding arbitration decision becomes legally enforceable when it is confirmed by a court. If a party believes that either the arbitration agreement itself is unfair (or unconscionable) or the manner in which the arbitration agreement is presented or administered is unconscionable, the arbitration decision may be challenged in court at the confirmation/vacatur hearing. A court will strike any portion of an arbitration agreement it finds unconscionable, and may even void (or vacate) the arbitration decision altogether and release the parties from the agreement.

Binding arbitration maintains its efficiency and cost benefit by limiting the grounds upon which a party can challenge decisions. It aspires to provide closure to all parties involved in the dispute. Parties must comply with the arbitrator’s decision unless they initiate a court challenge, claiming that the agreement, or the presentation and/or administration of the agreement, is unconscionable.

 

[PCL_128]

Weasil, that site isn't dealing with RLA and labor union issues. It's mainly dealing with arbitration issues resulting from insurance claims, warranties, etc... Hate to break it to you, but no court is going to agree to hear a case dealing with an arbitration decision that was taken care of under a legal RLA certified collective bargaining representative. The arbitration is binding and final. There's no way out of it. Accept it and move on.

 

[doh]

Weasil, that site isn't dealing with RLA and labor union issues. It's mainly dealing with arbitration issues resulting from insurance claims, warranties, etc... Hate to break it to you, but no court is going to agree to hear a case dealing with an arbitration decision that was taken care of under a legal RLA certified collective bargaining representative. The arbitration is binding and final. There's no way out of it. Accept it and move on.

You're trying to reason with hurricaine season. Expect the storm to continue until the court rules. If the court rules against East, you can expect a "non-job action" job action until every last Eastie is retired or until the company closes it's doors. Storms like these do not abate, the disruptions become institutionalised until all your customers are gone. Good luck and get your resume out there!

 

[PHXFLYR]

No .We're not trying to "reason with hurricane season." We're trying to reason with a bunch of imbiciles! It's got nothing to do with Hurricanes.


Patiently waiting for you guys to return to planet earth,but refusing to hold my breath.

PHXFLYR

 

[Soulfly]

Meanwhile,

Every East Captain is giving up over $3,000 a month, and 2 more weeks of vacation a year and more days off a month.

I just realized a senior SWA FO makes more than a 20 year AAA Narrowbody captain. WOW!

Maybe, common sense will take over.

I don't know of hardly any AWA guys that want to go East.

Why? You can't sell your house here in Phoenix, period, end of discussion. Unless you give it away, which isn't going to happen. Financially impossible.

I am sure there a quite a few ex - PSA guys that would like to bid Phoenix and end that x- country commute. And they should be able to.

If USAPA succeeds, or even attempts to force a vote, this place is probably done. Not suprising though. History tends to repeat itself.

 

[ALGFLYR]

Meanwhile,

Every East Captain is giving up over $3,000 a month, and 2 more weeks of vacation a year and more days off a month.

I just realized a senior SWA FO makes more than a 20 year AAA Narrowbody captain. WOW!

Wow! If they are giving up THAT much, then there must be a serious flaw with the award. If they are giving up that much, their resolve must be STRONG!!!

 

[abefly]

Wow! If they are giving up THAT much, then there must be a serious flaw with the award. If they are giving up that much, their resolve must be STRONG!!!

What flaw in the award? Get over it...Its a done deal! It is time to move on....."How about I take half your money, take you outside, kick you in the nuts and we call it a day"...Vegas Vacation

 

[TWA Dude]

Wow! If they are giving up THAT much, then there must be a serious flaw with the award.

There's a definately a serious flaw somewhere but it ain't with Nicolau's decision.

If they are giving up that much, their resolve must be STRONG!!!

Might doesn't make right. USAPA may eventually forge enough cards to get an election but winning that election is far from a forgone conclusion.

 

[BeCareful!]

Wow! If they are giving up THAT much, then there must be a serious flaw with the award. If they are giving up that much, their resolve must be STRONG!!!

Exactly. I love how west posters keep harping on the situation as if to imply that the east guys are just plain stupid.

By embracing the concept of a vote, east pilots are finally behaving like union brothers. All of the childish disrespect you read from west pilots mimics the politics of fear so prevalent in the media these days.

Seniority is a huge issue, and I'm certainly glad there's an attempt being made to respect it. Probably a lost cause, but very much worth a try.

If you guys are so sure that houses will never sell in PHX again and that none of you want to come fly left seat in the east, then why are you not fast-tracking things by offering a fence?

Furthermore, how about this: promotions by seniority, with fences, but furloughs go by date of hire. You guys have a problem with that?

Cool....call your reps and let's get on with it. See, this way, east 1988 hires won't have to be furloughed four times while west 2005 hires never see one.

 

[TWA Dude]

If you guys are so sure that houses will never sell in PHX again and that none of you want to come fly left seat in the east, then why are you not fast-tracking things by offering a fence?

Offer a fence in return for what? You know, a negotiation usually means a give-and-take. What do you have to offer us? Right now you're effectively holding a gun to our head and demanding a concession -- and you wonder why we don't just give in to your reasonable offer? Pull the trigger! Go ahead, I dare ya.

Furthermore, how about this: promotions by seniority, with fences, but furloughs go by date of hire. You guys have a problem with that?

Yes, we definitely do have a problem with that. Nicolau's decision ensured that future furloughs would be shared by both sides. Now you propose that we be your furlough-fodder? Gee, I wonder why that ain't going over so well.

 

[Itsallsogood]

Wow! If they are giving up THAT much, then there must be a serious flaw with the award. If they are giving up that much, their resolve must be STRONG!!!

Actually put it to a vote. Give the East pilots a chance to vote on desent TA. (Doug needs to put up too.) Then you will see what they give up. Just a few whinning furloughees, that should be happy to have returned to this mess, and the AAA LEC, MEC reps, keep this crying game going.

 

[FR8mastr]

Nicolau's decision ensured that future furloughs would be shared by both sides.

That will have to be one heck of a furlough in order for the west to "share" it.

 

[Guppiedriver]

That will have to be one heck of a furlough in order for the west to "share" it.

Less than 10%, which is the size of an average furlough.

 

[ALGFLYR]

What flaw in the award? Get over it...Its a done deal! It is time to move on....."How about I take half your money, take you outside, kick you in the nuts and we call it a day"...Vegas Vacation

Done deal????

Hahahahahaha!!!!!

 

[Guppiedriver]

Offer a fence in return for what? You know, a negotiation usually means a give-and-take. What do you have to offer us? Right now you're effectively holding a gun to your head and demanding a concession -- and you wonder why we don't just give in to your reasonable offer? Pull the trigger! Go ahead, I dare ya.Yes, we definitely do have a problem with that. Nicolau's decision ensured that future furloughs would be shared by both sides. Now you propose that we be your furlough-fodder? Gee, I wonder why that ain't going over so well.

I knew what you meant TWA, but I fixed it for you anyway. BTW, well said!

 

[TWA Dude]

That will have to be one heck of a furlough in order for the west to "share" it.

Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. Nicolau dovetailed all the active pilots on the list.

 

[FR8mastr]

Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. Nicolau dovetailed all the active pilots on the list.

Easy, since then the furloughed guys have all been called back, so now the west has a 500 or so buffer. (I dont know the exact number of the 1700 furloughed that came back)
add 20 or so poolies, and now new hires to the mix and you get a nice buffer for furlough fodder.

 

[Fast43]

Easy, since then the furloughed guys have all been called back, so now the west has a 500 or so buffer. (I dont know the exact number of the 1700 furloughed that came back)
add 20 or so poolies, and now new hires to the mix and you get a nice buffer for furlough fodder.

These guys didn't have a job when the list was done and were placed accordingly. If a guy doesn't want to be "furlough fodder".............don't come back.

Oh wait how silly of me!! Without the merger "IF" he was recalled to AAA, it would have been to the bottom. So just exactly how did Nic adversely affect what was going to happen to a furloughed guy.