USAirways West Bidding Procedures

[ALGFLYR]

Answer: Yes and Yes (I believe you did ask 2 questions.) MDA's Preamble stated in the first paragraph that Mid-Atlantic was a wholly owned to be flown by the furloughed pilots of USAirways. Did you ever fly a plane that did not say Express on it? And do you think you should jump ahead of all other J4J's?

MDA's preamble was written while they were working on getting the 170's on the Potomac operating certificate. Had that certificate been used, MDA would have been a wholly owned airline and you would be correct. HOWEVER, we all know that did not happen. MDA could not use the Potomac certificate without many more months of delay ... So, they decided NOT to use it and NOT have MDA as a wholly owned airline. They instead put the 170's on the AAA operating certificate. When they did that, it became a mainline operation. J. Glass testified to that in the courtroom. The 170's were no different than Metrojet. Those 737 pilots were treated differently with different work rules, but it was a plane on the AAA certificate. Were Metrojet pilots mainline? Could you imagine what precedent would be set if AAA ALPA allowed aircraft to be operated on the AAA certificate by pilots not on the AAA seniority list??

Jump ahead of other J4J'ers? Are you serious? I don't know ANYONE that came from MDA that would think that. My name is on the AAA seniority list below all original APL pilots. They are senior to me and will be offered recall before me. As it should be, they are senior. I don't know where you came up with the idea that anyone is trying to jump seniority. That can't happen and won't happen, because it's simply not true...

 

[Itsallsogood]

So now you side with J. Glass? and believe what he says? You have not answered my question now. Express plane? The list has NOT been approved. It is your own belief and understanding that you are on a perceived and unrealistic list that the East attempted to pass off that was easily refuted, just like the deceased pilots on the list. However, we will see. How about my 10 years at PSA and 7 at AWA. Should I expect now 17 years senority and move up on the list? APL and CDL are fabrication lists invented by the EAST. Good luck.

 

[Carl S.]

If you only have flown with a plane that had "EXPRESS" on it, you my friend are not a mainline pilot.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

So now you side with J. Glass? and believe what he says? You have not answered my question now. Express plane? The list has NOT been approved. It is your own belief and understanding that you are on a perceived and unrealistic list that the East attempted to pass off that was easily refuted, just like the deceased pilots on the list. However, we will see. How about my 10 years at PSA and 7 at AWA. Should I expect now 17 years senority and move up on the list? APL and CDL are fabrication lists invented by the EAST. Good luck.

Do not know how it will play out in the long run. However the current list that I have shows the MDA guys on the mainline list. The question I have is why their date of hire shows their express DOH. They are below the furloughed guys but appear to have been able to keep their W/O date of hire for retirement etc..(yeah I know...what retirement!!!) If that is the case, you can bet that I will be expecting my original Wholly Owned DOH instead of my mainline DOH when they calculate my vacation and retirement bennies!!

 

[Itsallsogood]

Well hell lets put together a list with Mesa on it too. Lets put PSA, Piedmont, and all the future WO's on it too. Lets put all the AWA poolies on it while we are at it. After all they were actually hired. BIG deal. There is only going to be one list and sorry , if you were not hired by AAA or AWA you are not going to be on it. HOWEVER , having spent all that time at PSA......... I think it is idiodic that we do not have a flow through with PDT and PSA. I was there in 1994 when the U mainline told us, PSA, to pound sand. But, I do not think that a few that think they can bypass an interview and hiring ahead of all the other WO brothers and sisters should be considered part of a ML list.

 

[ALGFLYR]

So now you side with J. Glass? and believe what he says? You have not answered my question now. Express plane? The list has NOT been approved. It is your own belief and understanding that you are on a perceived and unrealistic list that the East attempted to pass off that was easily refuted, just like the deceased pilots on the list. However, we will see. How about my 10 years at PSA and 7 at AWA. Should I expect now 17 years senority and move up on the list? APL and CDL are fabrication lists invented by the EAST. Good luck.

Now I see where your anamosity comes from, sorry, should have guessed... Anyway, what are you talking about the approval of the list??? There is no doubt about my position on the AAA system seniority list. It's there, black and white. As to where I will fall on the integrated list, who knows. Somewhere very near the bottom, and I'm ok with that.

Your time at PSA to count??? Whatever. You left PSA. When you did that, you resigned from the company, how could you want credit for that time? I came here in our flow-thru. I never resigned from anywhere. The ability to carry over seniority and longevity was spelled out in the LOA. I just took advantage of an opportunity that was available to all WO pilots with enough seniority to hold MDA.

And what is a CDL, do we need one of those to fly planes now?

 

[Itsallsogood]

Again, your position on any list was a positioning and bargaining attempt by the EAST for padding of the East list. That's all. The list was never agreed too by the WEST. It will be left up to, if not givin away by the EAST, the arbi-traitor.

 

[ALGFLYR]

There is only going to be one list and sorry , if you were not hired by AAA or AWA you are not going to be on it. HOWEVER , having spent all that time at PSA......... I think it is idiodic that we do not have a flow through with PDT and PSA.

All the CEL pilots hired at MDA WILL be on the integrated list. They are AAA pilots on the AAA list. Period.

We had a flow-though, over 100 pilots came over, them PDT screwed it up for the rest...

 

[ALGFLYR]

Again, your position on any list was a positioning and bargaining attempt by the EAST for padding of the East list. That's all. The list was never agreed too by the WEST. It will be left up to, if not givin away by the EAST, the arbi-traitor.

I think you are confusing the issue a little. What you are talking about is them counting MDA positions as active slots. That will be decided by an arbitrator, i agree. However, even if we get no credit for those positions, we are still on the list and will be there when the integration occurs. There is nothing the West can say about who is on our list. They don't have to agree about anything.

 

[Crzipilot]

Does the freeze date start during the first day of Ground School or after completion of IOE?

Sonny,

As it has worked in the past, the freeze starts the effective date of the award. So if your award is Nov bid period, that's when the 12 months starts, though don't quote me on it. (just looked at example in contract, but I could be wrong)

 

[TWA Dude]

I've been quiet on the MDA issue thus far but I just have a few thoughts without slamming anybody.

MDA was on the AAA certificate but was a different creature than Metro Jet. One could not be displaced from nor bid off MDA back to, uh, mainline. It was an autonomous division but not mainline in the conventional sense.

Having said that, the former WO guys hired by MDA appear to be on the AAA seniority list for good. No problem. They are junior to the rest of the furloughed AAA guys and their integration vis a vis the AWA guys will be set in arbitration. (The AAA guys did try to pull a fast one by changing the status of some MDA guys from furloughed to active when AWA demanded a "certified" seniority list. That too will be arbitrated.)

Regardless, it was a tragedy what happened to MDA. We'd all be better off if that flying had stayed in house.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

(The AAA guys did try to pull a fast one by changing the status of some MDA guys from furloughed to active when AWA demanded a "certified" seniority list. That too will be arbitrated.)

I thought that was only the original AAA guys that accepted the MDA positions. All the Captains at MDA were original furloughed mainline guys. I was not aware that they had tried that with the f/o's that came from the w/o's.

The bad thing about it is that it seems that the MDA f/o's that came from the express division have access to better information than we mainline furloughees have. In my case I do not have access to the ALPA Mec boards anymore, and getting info out of the furlough coordinator is like pulling teeth. The last contact I had from the company or ALPA was the survey on who would come back and who would not...prior to that letter I had not heard anything in a year or so.

 

[TWA Dude]

I was not aware that they had tried that with the f/o's that came from the w/o's.

Actually, I don't know if the w/o FO's were included. To my knowledge the "certified" AAA list hasn't been made available to us rank-and-file AWA guys. Regardless, the merger committees know about it.

 

[Carl S.]

MDA F/O's not from AAA and from W/O's are padding the AAA list and will be eliminated during Medation/Arbitration. They are not real AAA pilots and have never flown an aircraft without "EXPRESS" on the side of it. I think it was a good try to pad the list with dead people and W/O pilots and would do it myself if I was on that side of the company to get a better intergration slot, but they will be sold out to protect the senior wide body flying at the first chance AAA needs to deal a card.

 

[Itsallsogood]

ALGFLYR. A flow through? with 1500 pilots on furlough? You had a flow thorough? You got to flow up ? Un-friggin -believible. You may be one person that could use a HUD. because you are walking around with your head in a fog. And I still see you have not answered any of my questions yet.

 

[Green]

Yes all the MDA fo's that flowed up from Piedmont, allegheny, or PSA are now considered "mainline" furloughees. They are on the AAA seniority list with a US Airways date of hire. All are currently listed as furloughed but nontheless they were lucky to leapfrog all the other wholly owned pilots and get a spot on the mainline seniortiy list. These are probably the only pilots EVER to get hired at a legacy airline without ever having to interview.

Some say they will get dumped off the list after the integration. I doubt it. They flew airplanes on the Us Airways operating certificate for over a year using the Us Airways call sign and were represented by the AAA MEC. Mid Atlantic was basically an airline within an airline. They were not an entirely seperate company.

 

[Doug Parker]

Yes all the MDA fo's that flowed up from Piedmont, allegheny, or PSA are now considered "mainline" furloughees. They are on the AAA seniority list with a US Airways date of hire. All are currently listed as furloughed but nontheless they were lucky to leapfrog all the other wholly owned pilots and get a spot on the mainline seniortiy list. These are probably the only pilots EVER to get hired at a legacy airline without ever having to interview.

All that really matters is that it says "Furloughed" by their name..................



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[fletch]

I was under the impression that CEL pilots would have the right to flow back to their respective WO carrier should the need arise. So why haven't they?
Did the pilots at PDT, that decided not to go to MDA, tell em to pound sand?
I ask, because CEL pilots are going to PSA as captians, rather than returning to PDT

 

[ALGFLYR]

ALGFLYR. A flow through? with 1500 pilots on furlough? You had a flow thorough? You got to flow up ? Un-friggin -believible. You may be one person that could use a HUD. because you are walking around with your head in a fog. And I still see you have not answered any of my questions yet. http://forums.flightinfo.com/images/icons/icon23.gif

Yes there was a flow-thru. There were 1500 pilots on furlough, and they we ALL offered positions on the 170 BEFORE any CEL pilot came over. I wonder if our 190's will have a HUD (like Jetblue), since I evidently need one. What questions? Express on the side of the plane? For US Air, I flew the DHC-8 for 8 yrs and the 170 for 2yrs. Both did say express on them but the 170 was flown on the ML Certificate, by pilots on the ML seniority list (myself included). Was there another question I missed?

 

[ALGFLYR]

I was under the impression that CEL pilots would have the right to flow back to their respective WO carrier should the need arise. So why haven't they?
Did the pilots at PDT, that decided not to go to MDA, tell em to pound sand?
I ask, because CEL pilots are going to PSA as captians, rather than returning to PDT

LOA 91 said a CEL pilot at MDA that gets furloughed can flow back to the WO they came from. 100% of the CEL pilots that went to MDA came from PDT. WE tried to flowback but that was blocked by PDT. All furloughed AAA pilots (MDA furloughees included) have the ability to participate in J4J, which is why some are opting to go to PSA under that program...