USAirways and the PBGC

[gmorgan]

I'm retired USAirways. While talking to an active US Airways pilot today he told me that something is going on with our terminated retirement plan. He seemed to think the PBGC was about to reinstate the plan because there was more money in the plan than they originally thought. This sounds like a crazy rumor......can any other USAirways guys add anything to this rumor?

 

[Crzipilot]

Hmmm...might again be someone jumping the gun. I too don't know any details other than fringe talk. But I guess they have uncovred more stuff as to the actual funding of the plan, etc etc.

Anyways it seems whatever it is, statute of limitations expires March 10th I think. So the have to file suit on whatever they have found by then or it's definately gone. Is it about to be reinstated??? don't think so, think it's just a lawsuit to attempt to get it done or something.

So there is something brewing, just don't know the specifics...

 

[Dan Roman]

Good luck, sorry you only have USAPA on your side. This is one example that ALPA's deeper resources would probably be to your advantage.

 

[Crzipilot]

Actually, You might be wrong there. seems some documents have been uncovered. IT"S THE SMOKING GUN>>...haha. no but the latest update on this is interesting, and possibly implicating alpo???

We have recovered 20,000 pages of documents from the PBGC and other sources regarding the events and circumstances of our pension termination in March 2003. We have uncovered many indiscretions that all point to collusion, inappropriate behavior and possible fraud against our pilots and the Defined Benefits Pension Plan. We are in the process of doing a full forensic accounting of the events that led up to our pension termination, and we will report the findings of this group early next month. If this investigation determines we indeed have legal cause, we will be filing a lawsuit on your behalf prior to the end of March. We want to make this clear to our pilots; this is an uphill battle and will take time, energy and future funding from our pilots to pursue. After the forensic evaluation is complete, decisions will be made and the appropriate action taken. To answer many of your questions, whether this investigation leads to criminal action against specified individuals will be determined by Federal Prosecutors. The initial complaint, if filed, will be against certain named defendants that records indicate not only intentionally financially decimated our pension prior to termination but outright stole those monies for their personal use. We are working with many involved parties, and as the webs of indiscretions are unwound, we continue to find more and more involvements that could lead to the eventual return of our pension monies. This will be a tough road, but rest assured what has been uncovered so far indicates that our pension was in fact fully funded to ERISA standards in the years 2001 and through December 2002. During the first 3 months of 2003, many improprieties occurred – the bottom line is that the give-back of our pension was never required by any creditors as a means of emerging from bankruptcy. Dave Siegel had arranged all DIP financing prior to entering bankruptcy, the largest being the ATSB loan that had no requirement of pension termination. The documentation we have makes it apparent that, due to the lack of due diligence (no audits or forensic accounting were completed on our pension monies) and improper oversight, our pension was in fact not only fraudulently misrepresented by US Airways but intentionally raided prior to being turned over to the PBGC. The Company ordered the bankruptcy auditors, KPMG, not to audit our pension, and the PBGC has no obligation to audit the funds once they are turned over. Our MEC at the time was sold on the fact that US Airways was not coming out of bankruptcy with our pensions. Quite simply, we believe that was the fraud.

 

[Crzipilot]

Wow, if the allegations are true, it could really really get ugly...

 

[Fast43]

Wow, if the allegations are true, it could really really get ugly...

Especially since that Company does not exist anymore. AAA is gone and those pilots now work for LCC. The name was kept for brand recognition, for unknown reasons.

Before anyone were to get real exited, it might be a good idea to see if there is any liability for any of this, if true, for LCC.

Does it make sense a loophole like that would be left open. If in fact it is a liability. This could put and end to US Airways before usapa gets to finish it off.

 

[BeCareful!]

Good luck, sorry you only have USAPA on your side. This is one example that ALPA's deeper resources would probably be to your advantage.

That's hilarious, because ALPA is responsible for the entire mess. Had they done due diligence, had they done their f&^k!ng JOB, there would still be a pension.

It seems you guys log on here and bash USAPA just to make yourselves feel better. It's in fact USAPA that is making a real effort to finally represent this group, something ALPA quite OBVIOULSY wasn't doing.

One of your mature, professional pilots asked on here for evidence that USAPA was a union. From what EVERYONE else in the industry sees, (everyone else but the former America Who? Airlines pilots on FI.com,) USAPA has made huge progress and is up and running. The APA certainly sees our efficacy in dealing with 1549, and every other independant pilot union is working with us. The mythical hatred of USAPA is truely an FI.com thing, fueled by the lottery ticket called Nicolau. All USAPA is really doing is trying to unravel many years of ALPA's stupidity and negligance, and this latest finding with the pension is just another example. The corrupt and inept handling of our seniority is just one more.

 

[captairbusbb]

That's hilarious, because ALPA is responsible for the entire mess. Had they done due diligence, had they done their f&^k!ng JOB, there would still be a pension.

It seems you guys log on here and bash USAPA just to make yourselves feel better. It's in fact USAPA that is making a real effort to finally represent this group, something ALPA quite OBVIOULSY wasn't doing.

One of your mature, professional pilots asked on here for evidence that USAPA was a union. From what EVERYONE else in the industry sees, (everyone else but the former America Who? Airlines pilots on FI.com,) USAPA has made huge progress and is up and running. The APA certainly sees our efficacy in dealing with 1549, and every other independant pilot union is working with us. The mythical hatred of USAPA is truely an FI.com thing, fueled by the lottery ticket called Nicolau. All USAPA is really doing is trying to unravel many years of ALPA's stupidity and negligance, and this latest finding with the pension is just another example. The corrupt and inept handling of our seniority is just one more.

Hey BeCareful.........

BeCareful......The DFR lawsuit with damages is likely to bankrupt your beloved USAPA.

You can blame ALPA for all of USAir's past woes, but your elected officials (and self appointed USAPA dictators), are and were people at your airline. You can change the name, but you cant change the stupidiy of your leaders.

Captairbusbb

 

[Lampshade]

Cool another deadend lawsuit (number 4) for a union compelled to make lawyers rich off a bunch of victims.

 

[Crzipilot]

Ya, I guess if I hung my lampshad career on an airline that didn't have a pension, hence I wouldn't miss what I wouldn't have. I would really careless about such a pension.

But I guess maybe if I was forward thinking, and said, Hmmm....if collusion and fraud is found, AND the pension had to be reinstated. Hmmm....Possibly in the Future the AW pilots would inherit or be covered by a pension.

Naaaaa they wouldn't want that, personal 401k would work much better...

 

[Raoul Duke]

LCC will have absolutely no liability for any actions that occurred prior to the acceptance of the reorganization plan by the bankruptcy court. This will just line the pockets of USAPA's attorneys with dues $

 

[BeCareful!]

Hey BeCareful.........

BeCareful......The DFR lawsuit with damages is likely to bankrupt your beloved USAPA.

You can blame ALPA for all of USAir's past woes, but your elected officials (and self appointed USAPA dictators), are and were people at your airline. You can change the name, but you cant change the stupidiy of your leaders.

Captairbusbb

Who's blaming ALPA for "all of USAir's past woes"? Oh, wait, I recognize this.....this is typical rhetoric spewed on the Internet.

I blame ALPA for what they did, and, importantly, what they didn't do. Plain and simple. Now, the mess needs cleaning. If USAPA goes bankrupt in that process, as you hope and claim, then so be it. It's still the right thing to do.

FWIW, the people running USAPA are not the old ALPA fags that gave everything away and then some. BUT, and here's a warning for all, many of those losers and guys who think like them are trying like hell to take over USAPA. If they succeed, we'll be back to the old concession stand open 24/7 to management, only this time they will be giving away stuff for both groups!

Ask Doug Mowery about his stance on a 99 hour pay cap, and while you're at it ask him why he brought us LOA93. Then ask yourself if you want this guy running the show.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Good luck, sorry you only have USAPA on your side. This is one example that ALPA's deeper resources would probably be to your advantage.

Yeah...right...

Quote..."Take a deal...any deal"--former US Airways MEC member to the negotiating committee.

What a proud moment in ALPA history

Sign on baby stroller..."Let my daddy vote".

This on the stroller of the child of an ALPA member picketing their MEC. Why? they didn't want the MEC to do their due diligence....they just wanted to vote.

And, true to form...the "Give Away Gang" (GAG) gave it away.

 

[wscrj]

Both of these examples show poor decision making at the LOCAL carrier level, not at the NATIONAL level. 95% of "ALPA" is done by the people around you on your seniority list, not the knuckleheads in Herndon. Many of the problems and ALL of the solutions for your ALPA reside on your seniority list.

The "GAG" were not ALPA, they were/are US Airways pilots.

Yeah...right...

Quote..."Take a deal...any deal"--former US Airways MEC member to the negotiating committee.

What a proud moment in ALPA history

Sign on baby stroller..."Let my daddy vote".

This on the stroller of the child of an ALPA member picketing their MEC. Why? they didn't want the MEC to do their due diligence....they just wanted to vote.

And, true to form...the "Give Away Gang" (GAG) gave it away.

 

[Lear70]

LCC will have absolutely no liability for any actions that occurred prior to the acceptance of the reorganization plan by the bankruptcy court. This will just line the pockets of USAPA's attorneys with dues $

Methinks people are missing the importance of a few things:

1. If Seagull knew about the ERISA funding level, and it can be proven he, or employees acting on his instructions, deliberately pulled money out of the fund before handing it over to the PBGC, he is PERSONALLY liable.

2. If Seagull or others are found to have deliberately done so, it's a criminal charge in a time when major CEO's are under HUGE scrutiny for "improper behavior" of finances toward the rank-and-file employees. Not a good time to get hauled up on charges for major corporate leaders.

3. TORT law may specifically allow for the UAir employees to go back and sue the federal government for failure to accomplish due dilligence in determining the ERISA funding level for the UAir pension plan. They can't sue the judge personally (protected by Tort Law), but there might be wiggle room in general liability of process of the bankruptcy court. In other words, that $1.4 Billion *MIGHT* come from the U.S. government, IF the bankruptcy judge simply took the word of the executives in the hearings rather than having every financial transaction in and out of the pension fund over the past 2-3 years analyzed PRIOR to deciding it was insolvent and handing it over to the PBGC and it's the PROCESS written by the bankruptcy COURT that caused the funds to be missed.

It certainly wouldn't carry through the bankruptcy process into the AW/LCC purchase agreement. AW won't carry any liability moving forward for a debt discharged by the bankruptcy judge. The only hopes for the UAir pilots affected is that the U.S. government is found negligent through process and has to make the fund whole.

Oh boy, imagine the next thread topic: USAirways retiree stimulus package.

 

[Crzipilot]

So then....Uhmmm...what is national there for, besides a shiny magazine. I would obviously be wrong, But my understanding of having a "Mother Ship" is to make sure the children running the asylum don't make a jail break. I.E. Why is every contract and LOA signed by the PRESIDENT OF ALPA. he's gotta approve it right??? So uhmmmm....ya ....

whatever, ALPA has failed in their charter. Plain and simple. Yes the union is of it's members. BUT when those in charge have taken over and neutered the ability of the members to recall and such, what is one to do. Get rid of the union.

why oh why did ALPA spend more money on trying to keep the USAir pilots in the fold, then they did trying to save our pension?????

Oh that's right. The usair pilots did it all......

 

[Bringupthebird]

If they succeed, we'll be back to the old concession stand open 24/7 to management, only this time they will be giving away stuff for both groups!

Psst, they (USAPA) already are. They're eviscerating the AWA contract one giveaway at a time. Their hope is that once they gut the contract (Bradford's warped sense of "parity") the company will just have to give them something in return. They just HAVE to!

While you like to believe that APA supports USAPA, can you cite where they (APA) have agreed to participate in binding arbitration, then circumvented that agreement when the results didn't suit them?

Unless I'm misinterpreting the eyerolls I get from pilots from other airlines when USAPA is mentioned, I think there's much less support for the Integrity-Challellenged F/O Club than you think.

And lastly, please, guys, see the "We're getting our pension back" campaign for what it is: A DISTRACTION, designed to take the focus off USAPA's inability to negotiate a contract because management doesn't take these fools seriously. I wish it was something of substance, but it isn't.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Oh that's right. The usair pilots did it all......

Well, given the track record of USAPA so far and since USAPA is a clone of the AAA MEC (post Nicolau), a pattern of ineptness does begin to appear.

 

[BeCareful!]

Well, given the track record of USAPA so far and since USAPA is a clone of the AAA MEC (post Nicolau), a pattern of ineptness does begin to appear.

Ha....that just might be the most ignorant post I've seen this year! Clone...riiight.

 

[Bringupthebird]

AAA MEC promised permanent separate operations and USAPA has obliged (in the abscence of actually being able to accomplish something productive).