USAir Fokkers

[FirstMate]

Can any of the US guys/gals explain the economics and reasoning behind USAir dumping the Fokker fleet and essentially replacing it with equipment having a similar capacity? (erj, crj, 170, etc...) Is it that the contract carriers operate THAT much cheaper, or was it a leasing issue? or both? I've always been a big fan of the Fokker a/c. Its sad not to see them around anymore.
-FM

 

[Inconceivable]

1--a lot cheaper contracting out
2--there was a nasty AD coming due in 2002/3 I believe
3--who assumes mgmt is farsighted enough to know what they need tomorrow?

 

[8vATE]

Can any of the US guys/gals explain the economics and reasoning behind USAir dumping the Fokker fleet and essentially replacing it with equipment having a similar capacity? (erj, crj, 170, etc...) Is it that the contract carriers operate THAT much cheaper, or was it a leasing issue? or both? -FM

One of MANY factors was the F-100s were orphans...
Fokker is no longer around ...
There were a only around 120 in the US...

So parts weren't cheap...

The aircraft were decent for what they were designed to do... short haul and be fuel efficient..

But there were ADs...
There were corrosion issues below the galleys/lavs...
USAirways bought the lightweight landing gear....
Which needed lots of overhauls...

ACMs were a lot of problems too...

Not sure how the reliability was...
Personally for me... it was pretty reliable...

But it wasn't a big seller...
And I don't see a lot of people snapping them up...

FWIW..

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

All good answers....BUT the one and only reason was payrates.

F-100's were on a mainline payscale, now that they are gone the 170's pay half of what the 100 did.

The 100 paid 139 hr for 2nd year Capt. and 69.50 hr for 2nd year F/O's

The 170 now pays 59 hr for Capt.

Just for a complete comparison, the F-28 Paid 92.42 hr for 2nd year Capt. (Gone by the 1998 contract but the payscale was still in the contract.)

 

[General Lee]

One of MANY factors was the F-100s were orphans...
Fokker is no longer around ...
There were a only around 120 in the US...

So parts weren't cheap...

The aircraft were decent for what they were designed to do... short haul and be fuel efficient..

But there were ADs...
There were corrosion issues below the galleys/lavs...
USAirways bought the lightweight landing gear....
Which needed lots of overhauls...

ACMs were a lot of problems too...

Not sure how the reliability was...
Personally for me... it was pretty reliable...

But it wasn't a big seller...
And I don't see a lot of people snapping them up...

FWIW..

What? Apparently you didn't see Germania in Europe snap up all of the F1O0s (now using them for Hapag-Loyd Express out of Cologne), and so did EUjet--flying them from Manston, England. You really don't get out much, do you? Oh well, you are never wrong, and I have a bad attitude---even though I AM RIGHT. Good night! (now you REALLY REALLY HATE DL pilots!!)(I jumpsat on one from ORD to MSP on AA once and thought it was great. I liked the speedbrake---FWIW)


Bye Bye--General Lee

PS--EUjet flies them from Manston to: Alicante, Amsterdam, Belfast, Budapest, Dublin, Edinburgh, Faro, Gerona, Ibiza, Malaga, Manchester, Murica, Newcastle, Nice, Palma Mallorca, Prague, and Shannon.

Hapag-Loyd- Express flies them from Cologne to: Bari, Coventry, Manchester, Marseille, Pisa, Rijeka, and Venice.

And, Deutche BA (an intra-Germany airline) just added F100s to their fleet as well.

 

[BeCareful!]

All good answers....BUT the one and only reason was payrates.

Wrong! But I'm sure managements everywhere are glad to see you spew your bean counter "knowledge" on the web.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Wrong! But I'm sure managements everywhere are glad to see you spew your bean counter "knowledge" on the web.

If the reasons above were their main concern, the 100 should have left the property long before the 737-200's did, instead it was the other way around. The 200 was old but reliable. It burned more gas sure, but it also still had factory support. They were flown seperate from the 300 fleet, but did not generate near the training events that the 100 did, differences training only, and that could have been eliminated with the stroke of a pen at the FSDO ala SWA.

Dont know why you would be concerned about old payrates being posted on the web. People, especially pilots, seem to have no problem buying into the fact that a 100 seater is an RJ and should pay dirt bag wages. Getting rid of all remaining traces of "non RJ" 100 seaters was a logical needed first step to reprogram the pilot mentality of this country.

The new generation of RJ is not an RJ at all, except in the pilot contracts and scope clauses. I hate to break it to everybody, but flying a 170 or 190, or 700 and 900 around for 50 and 60 an hour for the PIC and 20 or 30 bucks an hour for the right seat has been the goal all along of managment.

Seigal said publicly that the "RJ is a union buster" And he was correct.
They cost more in CASM, pax do not like them for long haul, they cannot go anywhere that a 737 or 320 can't, and they take up the same slot that a 767 does......so we are left with the question, why RJ's? The only answer left is crew costs. As long as they can outsource DC-9 and 737 sized airplanes, they have the ability to pit all the pilot groups against eash other, an activity that they have become masters at.

 

[generaltso]

so we are left with the question, why RJ's? The only answer left is crew costs. As long as they can outsource DC-9 and 737 sized airplanes, they have the ability to pit all the pilot groups against eash other, an activity that they have become masters at.

I agree... I think 70 and 90 seat pay scales are pathetic at every regional. But at long as every regional IMPROVES their contract over their last one, we will continue to get pay rates to rise. Of course it doesn't help when Mesa, ops I mean Comair, votes to freeze their pay.

Also it doesn't help that places like CHQ and Skywest are flying the 70 seater for 50 seat rates (plus a little at CHQ for Captains, not FO's).

Coex improved their contract. A good thing. Hopefully ASA (will be tough now) and Pinnacle will do the same. REGIONAL PILOTS - when it comes time to improve YOUR contract, don't sell out. Raise the bar. As long as we continue improving, it will be a slow and steady climb (Until we are all overpaid and our companies go out of business and we all get furloughed)

 

[8vATE]

What? Apparently you didn't see Germania in Europe snap up all of the F1O0s (now using them for Hapag-Loyd Express out of Cologne), and so did EUjet--flying them from Manston, England. You really don't get out much, do you? Oh well, you are never wrong, and I have a bad attitude---even though I AM RIGHT. Good night! (now you REALLY REALLY HATE DL pilots!!)(I jumpsat on one from ORD to MSP on AA once and thought it was great. I liked the speedbrake---FWIW)


Bye Bye--General Lee

PS--EUjet flies them from Manston to: Alicante, Amsterdam, Belfast, Budapest, Dublin, Edinburgh, Faro, Gerona, Ibiza, Malaga, Manchester, Murica, Newcastle, Nice, Palma Mallorca, Prague, and Shannon.

Hapag-Loyd- Express flies them from Cologne to: Bari, Coventry, Manchester, Marseille, Pisa, Rijeka, and Venice.

And, Deutche BA (an intra-Germany airline) just added F100s to their fleet as well.

Oh wow..

I am so impressed...
yes... there are European operators..
And did you know Stork Av was marketing them as Executive Aircraft?

So when does anything the intra-European airlines do have to do with the US market...?

You just can't take someone telling you how they see it.

Mr. Douche General Lee..

You are a self-centered, arrogant Delta pilot....
Whose world is crumbling around the edges..
And you love to hear yourself talk...
And you love to tell everyone what you think about everything...

Any you certainly love to tell how great Delta is ...
And how the LCCs are to blame for your problems...

And all your experience is flying Brasilias? and then going to mother Delta...

There are reasons why most people don't have >3000 posts here..
They have a life...

You are some sort of compulsive, computer obsessed, info creep...

Happy Easter!!

 

[General Lee]

Oh wow..

I am so impressed...
yes... there are European operators..
And did you know Stork Av was marketing them as Executive Aircraft?

So when does anything the intra-European airlines do have to do with the US market...?

You just can't take someone telling you how they see it.

Mr. Douche General Lee..

You are a self-centered, arrogant Delta pilot....
Whose world is crumbling around the edges..
And you love to hear yourself talk...
And you love to tell everyone what you think about everything...

Any you certainly love to tell how great Delta is ...
And how the LCCs are to blame for your problems...

And all your experience is flying Brasilias? and then going to mother Delta...

There are reasons why most people don't have >3000 posts here..
They have a life...

You are some sort of compulsive, computer obsessed, info creep...

Happy Easter!!

AHAHAHHAHA. What? You were WRONG with your post. And then you cut down my experience, when you really don't even know most of the planes I flew or where I flew them. Did I slam the LCC's in this last post? No, I slammed your lack of knowledge on where the F100s went, because you said you didn't see people "snapping them up." (which is just wrong) You are very focused on what happens in the States, and that is because you only fly here. That is understandable.

I am a compulsive creep? Ouch. On Easter? Man, I really did hit a nerve. I am on this board often because I enjoy it. I have also been on here for YEARS. I check in on things a couple times a day, and I always enjoy your jealous-ridden posts. You were turned down at DL before USAir, right? I thought so. A self-centered "arrogant DL pilot." Hmmm. It just smells of jealousy.

Don't worry, I'll be around to find more of your mistakes. Happy Easter.


Bye Bye--General Lee