USAIR East Pilots not alone.

[becket]

You are correct, but if the binding arbitrator doesn't follow the rules, then what?

Then you collect a few million dollars, sue in Federal court and hope you can prove your accusation of "not following the rules". To characterize that as an uphill battle is epic understatement .

 

[Turtle21]

Hate to throw a wrench in the works here guys, but you need to have a time from on the page count.

Some ground rules please.

First rule is spelling doesn't count.

 

[TWA Dude]

You are correct, but if the binding arbitrator doesn't follow the rules, then what?

The arbitrator decides how the rules are to be followed. Barring any evidence of impropriety his ruling will stand. Disagreeing with him isn't grounds for a lawsuit.

 

[Grey Ghost]

Once again, FAPA blew it! Get over yourselves!!!

 

[Quiet Flight]

The problem is that all parties agree on........wait for it...........BINDING ARBITRATION. Then when they don't like the decision they take their ball and go home. If you don't want to abide by the BINDING ARBITRATION then don't agree to it.

Agreed.

And...let's not forget the ARBITRARY nature of this method!! Labor groups expect an arbitrator (from the root ARBITRARY) with no skin in the game to come up with a reasonable decision. It will NEVER happen. And as evidenced again and again, even if a "solution" is handed down from the arbitrator, it does not necessarily mean the parties will abide by it. No matter what they signed at the beginning of the negotiating process. It's the nature of the process and the litigious world we live in. Don't like something your union agreed to beforehand? File suit and drag out the integration for eternity. Not a big deal. There are few, if any, immediate repercussions.

And yes FAPA blew it. Again. I genuinely feel for my friends who are F/O's over there. All of their F/O's for that matter. :angryfire


This really sums it up.

Arbitrary:

• Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle: stopped at the first motel we passed, an arbitrary choice.
• Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference: The diet imposes overall calorie limits, but daily menus are arbitrary.
• Established by a court or judge rather than by a specific law or statute: an arbitrary penalty.
• Not limited by law; despotic: the arbitrary rule of a dictator.

 

[chqflyer]

Why is this in the majors section?

 

[doh]

Anyone have a link to the arbitrated award?

 

[Fubijaakr]

Why is this in the majors section?

Exactly. And why do F9 guys think they're "mainline"? Because they had Lynx feeding them?

 

[USMC319]

Fubijaakr or jack$$, or whatever your name is. Maybe Frontier is considered mainline because they fly narrow body mainline jets under their own brand and exceed the billion dollar revenue threshold to be considered a Major Airline under the DOT definition. But whatever hate you can spew out to sate your inferiority complex will work fine too.

 

[bri5150]

Fubijaakr or jack$$, or whatever your name is. Maybe Frontier is considered mainline because they fly narrow body mainline jets under their own brand and exceed the billion dollar revenue threshold to be considered a Major Airline under the DOT definition. But whatever hate you can spew out to sate your inferiority complex will work fine too.

I was thinking the same thing...if Frontier isn't mainline, then neither is VA, SWA, Airtran...

 

[terryhfly]

Hypothetically speaking here. If SWA and Airtran go to mediation and the Airtran pilots get basically a 3:1 ratio over SWA pilots how do think the SWA pilots will act? The three Airtran pilots above each SWA pilot were hired at Airtran over two years after each SWA pilot was hired at SWA. I am sure they would just say "Well it's binding arbitration so that sucks for us." Not that this will happen but what if it does?

 

[MCDU]

Hypothetically speaking here. If SWA and Airtran go to mediation and the Airtran pilots get basically a 3:1 ratio over SWA pilots how do think the SWA pilots will act? The three Airtran pilots above each SWA pilot were hired at Airtran over two years after each SWA pilot was hired at SWA. I am sure they would just say "Well it's binding arbitration so that sucks for us." Not that this will happen but what if it does?

Good point. SWA will not accept it and would fight it with all means.

M

 

[Lampshade]

Crybaby alert^

 

[LeeRoyJenkins]

Fubijaakr or jack$$, or whatever your name is. Maybe Frontier is considered mainline because they fly narrow body mainline jets under their own brand and exceed the billion dollar revenue threshold to be considered a Major Airline under the DOT definition. But whatever hate you can spew out to sate your inferiority complex will work fine too.

I was thinking the same thing...if Frontier isn't mainline, then neither is VA, SWA, Airtran...

You guys are getting your terms mixed up. Majors just mean that a brand exceeds $1 Billion in revenue. Mainline doesn't mean much of anything from that standpoint.

In fact SWA has no feed so using the term Mainline or even regional is pointless. There is no mainline SWA. It is only Southwest.

 

[becket]

Good point. SWA will not accept it and would fight it with all means.

HA! Only USCAPA is dumb enough to lead their minority group of blind followers down that path. Binding means BINDING. FIGHTING IT , (especially when you're the lowest compensated major airline pilot group in the last 4 decades) is a fools errand.

 

[cactusboy53]

These are the lawsuits pilots have to deal with when the gold standard DOH was abandoned by some pilot groups. All the DOH integrations work themselves out.Just wait til the SWA AAI goes down. Atlas and Polar are still separate. Abandoning DOH was opening up pandoras box.

M

Time for a little re-edumucation, Marty? In the past 15+ years there have been ZERO merged pilot seniority lists done. In fact, the ALPA Merger policy (in the form that it was in May 2005) was largely done by and for US Air. Oh, BTW.....according to an internet search the current Frontier airlines was founded in 1994. Republic / Chautauqua was founded in 1973. That tells me that if DOH had been used, the Republic pilots may have had an ever greater advantage (seniority-wise).

If you really want DOH that bad, you'll need to strap on that apron and start doing safety demos with the kids in the back of the airplane (or join some other labor that uses that premise for merging lists).

Final is final. Binding is binding. The only thing that litigation buys is delay. It costs money to do. It cost and diverts money away from an improved contract. Go pedal your gold standard to someone else. The Nicolau award is the completed product of an approved integration. PERIOD.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Maybe Frontier is considered mainline because they fly narrow body mainline jets under their own brand and exceed the billion dollar revenue threshold to be considered a Major Airline under the DOT definition.

Perhaps, but what I can't figure out is why 95% of your pilots can't even use your proper radio call sign. BTW its Frontier FLIGHT. You'd think "mainline" pilots would know that.

The call sign Frontier is owned by Frontier Flying Service in Fairbanks, AK.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Majors just mean that a brand exceeds $1 Billion in revenue. Mainline doesn't mean much of anything from that standpoint.

Thank you. That's exactly my point. The term "mainline" is meaningless. No one ever said F9 didn't qualify as a Major. But it seems F9 pilots like to use the term "mainline" to falsely inflate their position vis-a-vis RAH pilots.

In fact SWA has no feed so using the term Mainline or even regional is pointless. There is no mainline SWA. It is only Southwest.

Yep.

 

[bri5150]

Thank you. That's exactly my point. The term "mainline" is meaningless. No one ever said F9 didn't qualify as a Major. But it seems F9 pilots like to use the term "mainline" to falsely inflate their position vis-a-vis RAH pilots.



.

Do you work for Republic? How can you say they are the same? Frontier and Republic are not even close to the same type of airline. Republic flies smaller aircraft as a contract for other carriers. Frontier flies bigger aircraft as a stand alone carrier that has their own website, booking system, gates...Republic is what is traditionally called a regional, while Frontier is what is traditionally called a major, national, or LCC. I don't think there is anything "false" about their inflated position. By the way, this is an outsider perspective. I am not employed by either airline, but I do have a preconcieved opinion on how Republic treated the "mainline" carriers they purchased (Midwest and Frontier).

 

[Fubijaakr]

Do you work for Republic? How can you say they are the same? Frontier and Republic are not even close to the same type of airline. Republic flies smaller aircraft as a contract for other carriers. Frontier flies bigger aircraft as a stand alone carrier that has their own website, booking system, gates...Republic is what is traditionally called a regional, while Frontier is what is traditionally called a major, national, or LCC.

Who said they were the same? Not I.

I don't think there is anything "false" about their inflated position. By the way, this is an outsider perspective. I am not employed by either airline, but I do have a preconcieved opinion on how Republic treated the "mainline" carriers they purchased (Midwest and Frontier).

You might be surprised about my opinion. That said, RAH was the acquiring carrier in both instances and the infer that F9 pilots are "mainline" and are therefore somehow superior to RAH pilots is ludicrous.

The SLI is done and the fences are in place. Time to let it go.

 

[Lear70]

I ran into a RAH FO yesterday on the crew bus. He was not happy with the award either. F9 fo's can upgrade into RAH RJ's but the RAH FO's can't touch the Bus for 7 years. Upgrade times just increased.

The whole point is that no one seems to have received a real "windfall". How is it unfair?

That said I think this Nanette has a snowball's chance in h*ll of succeeding.

 

[terryhfly]

None of this will matter once Hawaiian completes their buyout of the Frontier certificate and takes only the airbuses. This will happen! I demand it!!!!!!!

 

[bri5150]

Who said they were the same? Not I.

You said Frontier pilots used the word mainline to "falsely inflate their position vis-a-vis RAH pilots". You obviously must not think that a "mainline" carrier has a higher "position" than a regional? Edit: I had a longer paragraph written, but this will make it easier. Is the average Republic pilot happy that they will be able to fly the Airbus without having to interview somewhere? Is the average Frontier pilot happy he can fly an RJ without having to interview somewhere? Boom, Frontier is in a higher position.

 

[Lear70]

Nannette??? Nonsense is what was supposed to be there. Stupid iPhone.

www.d*amnyouautocorrect.com

 

[waveflyer]

It is interesting how many mainline carriers have thought it "ok" to screw my generation and younger with the increasing acceptance of outsourcing- only fair that an outsourcing company buys a 'mainline' carrier and integrates- it's what you get when you hold a brother down, even if a younger one- it's going to hit your own pocket too, whether it's guys accepting jblu and now VA rates, putting pressure on your own wages- or this^^
I only wish that delta or united would get bought by skywest and staple the mainline- te only thing I wish more is that all pilots at both carriers would walk off the job tomorrow and not come back until a plan was in place to cancel all outsourcing contracts and have all branded flying on one list - too bad about frontier bc they were one of the least offenders-
Wish all good luck and hope the real lesson is the damage outsourcing has done to the industry

 

[Fubijaakr]

Is the average Republic pilot happy that they will be able to fly the Airbus without having to interview somewhere? Is the average Frontier pilot happy he can fly an RJ without having to interview somewhere? Boom, Frontier is in a higher position.

By this logic, its a "higher" position to fly a HAL 767 for $170 an hour than a SWA 737 for $196 an hour.

The only place where size matters in the airline industy is in the paycheck, my friend.

 

[bri5150]

By this logic, its a "higher" position to fly a HAL 767 for $170 an hour than a SWA 737 for $196 an hour.

The only place where size matters in the airline industy is in the paycheck, my friend.

Okay, Frontier pilots make more than Republic, right?

 

[C Festerpuss]

Yall gots is wrong!. the onlyist thing that matters is how big yer beer belly is an how big yer gun an truck is, all the rest is jest a buch o yappin.

http://www.masalatime.com/world/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/29-1561498916.jpg


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_qoo5bH44yls/SP-KZn4eGCI/AAAAAAAABlw/CGAqxc5u1zQ/s400/beer+belly+01.jpg


http://www.demotivationalposters.or...-redneck-demotivational-poster-1210298856.jpg


Yall come on down to CLT, bring yer trucks an guns and ifin ya aint gots a beer belly well then its bout time you worked on it a bit.

 

[eaglesview]

By this logic, its a "higher" position to fly a HAL 767 for $170 an hour than a SWA 737 for $196 an hour.

The only place where size matters in the airline industy is in the paycheck, my friend.

Unlike your silly analogy, the pilots involved here work for the same company.

 

[dougdrvr]

Nannette??? Nonsense is what was supposed to be there. Stupid iPhone.

www.d*amnyouautocorrect.com

I'm SO glad you explained that. I was afraid that there was an expression of derision toward RAH that I had not heard of.