USA TODAY: Southwest Beating Republic to Frontier

[atpcliff]

Hi!

From what I understand, the McCaskill-Bond legislation applies if two organization's employees are combined. It doesn't matter if it is a merger or a buyout, or any other term you have for combining two employee groups.

If one pilot/employee group feels that the integration is not fair, they can ask for a moderator, and the moderator will make the final decision (unless you are the USAir/AWA East pilot group, and then you sue after you don't agree with the moderator's decision, either).

cliff
NBO

 

[bvt1151]

LUV would send a horrific blow to United..... along with every company who fly's for them. Good or bad I have no idea anymore. When did Southwest become the good guy?

UAL actually wins in this deal. They get rid of one competitor out of DEN without spending a dime! Pricing will actually improve for them since you won't have F9 to muddy the waters with their bankruptcy sales.

1 competitor out of DEN is better than 2.

 

[Clyde Frog]

The Airtran guys most likely think this is cool. They would love to get bought by Southwest. Even the senior guys would love it.

Umm, no.

 

[buscap]

Umm, no.

I forgot the smiley.

 

[sshrae]

Hi!

From what I understand, the McCaskill-Bond legislation applies if two organization's employees are combined. It doesn't matter if it is a merger or a buyout, or any other term you have for combining two employee groups.

If one pilot/employee group feels that the integration is not fair, they can ask for a moderator, and the moderator will make the final decision (unless you are the USAir/AWA East pilot group, and then you sue after you don't agree with the moderator's decision, either).

cliff
NBO

Thanks Cliff, this was my original understanding but was not sure about the wording on merger vs. buyout. Ill have to find a copy of this bill, this could mean everything to the F9 pilots.

 

[Speedtape]

First of all SWA did not buy MORSE AIR. Its MORRIS AIR ( Founded by June Morris and David Neelman in 92). Get your facts straight. And Morris Air had 737-300's. My father was a pilot with Morris Air during the SWA buyout. And I'm sure Citrus guys would love a buyout from SWA.....My old man is now a very senior Capt. with SWA.

Morris Air/Morse Air--I stand corrected on spelling--result is the same!
Morris Air operated 737-300. Correct

If your Father was a Captain with Morris Air, like other Morris Air Pilots that were hired, he was hired as a new hire. However, Captains' pay rates were frozen at Morris Air Rates until the Southwest rates caught up. I am not sure how Morris Air F/O's rates were handled. Morris Air was started in 1992, and Southwest made their offer in 1993. However, the sale was not consumated until 1994.

If your Father's seniority date was 1993, or more likely 1994 at the sale completion, then he has been at Southwest for about 15 years. He may be senior, depending on his base, but based on their seniority list, claiming that he is "very senior" may be a stretch. But, how it's characterized matters only to you.

Facts now corrected--Not much change in substance.

 

[Speedtape]

You seem pretty sure of yourself. Do you know something GK doesn't know? I don't know what you mean by 2 non-union carriers, they both have unions. The law was not an ALPA law if that is what you mean. It is possible if GK decides to keep them permanently separate that there will be no integration but as far as I know he has not said anything like that publicly, maybe he only told you. He has said that he will phase out the airbus, that is obvious but that does not mean he will phase out the crews.

To answer your question, I don't know GK, and never claimed I did. I'll cut to the chase. The acquisition will not be a merger. Furthermore, the two companies will not be operated separately long term--it's not efficient. The purpose of the acquisition is to gain prime gate access on the A Terminal, and to gain a strong local market share. It results in reducing competition, gaining market share, and pricing control. Anyone with average intelligence can figure that one out without knowing GK.

We can finally agree--the airbus will be phased out. Based on previous history, and you, of all people should know, most of the Frontier pilots will be offered employment, and most likely under the same conditions that your Father was. They will be at the bottom of the Southwest list, and will probably be at the Frontier rates, until the Southwest rates for their Southwest hire date surpass the Frontier rates.

Southwest pilots will speak to this issue at the appropriate time. I can assure you, if their position has not been formulated, it is being crafted now. If necessary, they will argue past practice be followed. In addition, a strong case for the career expectation argument can be made. Frontier pilots have a bleak career expectation without an acquisition. Southwest pilots are a part of the acquiring company, and we all know with some certainty, they have strong career expectations. Bottom line--it's a seniority issue as all acquisitions and/or mergers pose. MY money is on the Southwest pilots and past practice. Unfortunately for the Frontier pilots, they have NO leverage and an offer at the bottom of the SWA list is their best hope.

Just curious, are you a Frontier pilot and the son of a SWA pilot?

As far as GK, by law, he cannot make any such statements at this time. In addition, the bid has not been awarded by the Bankruptcy Judge. However, Southwest will not be out bid on this sale in the end. You can take that one to the bank!

 

[Speedtape]

Hi!

From what I understand, the McCaskill-Bond legislation applies if two organization's employees are combined. It doesn't matter if it is a merger or a buyout, or any other term you have for combining two employee groups.

If one pilot/employee group feels that the integration is not fair, they can ask for a moderator, and the moderator will make the final decision (unless you are the USAir/AWA East pilot group, and then you sue after you don't agree with the moderator's decision, either).

Re-Co-la

 

[Raoul Duke]

Didn't Southwest buy up ATA? What happened there...

how many ATA guys were offered positions at WN?

 

[$$$4nothin]

This might have been what BB wanted all along. SW buys F9, pays back the $150 million that is owed to RAH. USAIR is trying to get rid of 25 190's. How many 190's will BB be able to get for $150 million plus the $100 million he was going to use to buy F9. Things might actually work if BB can run the entire Midwest operation with no airplane payments. From what I have heard and read, the ACA operation would have worked if they didn't have huge lease payments and gas wasn't so expensive. Two things BB would have going for hime.

A fleet of paid for 190's and cheap labor flying the planes and the Midwest operation will most likely work. I understand there is a bit of competition in MKE and Kansis City, however with cost that low BB can do a lot of damage in a small niche market in the Midwest. The only real competition in those business markets would then be Airtran and RAH could easily compete with no plane payments and cheap azz labor. Just my $.02 of course.

 

[Speedtape]

This might have been what BB wanted all along. SW buys F9, pays back the $150 million that is owed to RAH. USAIR is trying to get rid of 25 190's. How many 190's will BB be able to get for $150 million plus the $100 million he was going to use to buy F9. Things might actually work if BB can run the entire Midwest operation with no airplane payments. From what I have heard and read, the ACA operation would have worked if they didn't have huge lease payments and gas wasn't so expensive. Two things BB would have going for hime.

A fleet of paid for 190's and cheap labor flying the planes and the Midwest operation will most likely work. I understand there is a bit of competition in MKE and Kansis City, however with cost that low BB can do a lot of damage in a small niche market in the Midwest. The only real competition in those business markets would then be Airtran and RAH could easily compete with no plane payments and cheap azz labor. Just my $.02 of course.

Hmmm--Is there something in the paperwork that would require SWA to pay back RAH? Otherwise, RAH will just be financing the sale as an unwilling financier. In addtion, the Bankruptcy Judge could weigh in and alter either the debt or extend the payback schedule.

OPM--Other People's Money--is a preference for Entrepreneurs.

 

[nerjdriver]

Dont forget Frontier Airlines has a codeshare agreement with Midwest Airlines now. i wonder how this will effect the agreement with midwest/republic?

Who cares. That can be voided and the whip of a pen in an acquisition.

The good news is republic is out money and now they have to compete with not only WN in MKE but now DEN. ahhhhhhhh music to my ears!

 

[MACH-TUCK]

Bump!!!!! Whats the latest?

 

[Captain Morgan]

Who cares. That can be voided and the whip of a pen in an acquisition.

The good news is republic is out money and now they have to compete with not only WN in MKE but now DEN. ahhhhhhhh music to my ears!

uke: I just don't know how you ever became a professional pilot. There is nothing professional that ever comes out of you, just hate and jealousy. Good luck with you career, you better get thick thick skin.

 

[inflightboi175]

Frontier Airlines employees and supporters say they plan to hold a rally at the Denver City & County Building Thursday to support preservation of the airline.

Denver-based Frontier could disappear as a separate entity if competitor Southwest Airlines buys it.

Southwest said July 30 it intends to submit a $113.6 million bid to buy Frontier Airlines, which is trying to emerge from Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.

The deal would combine the No. 2 and 3 carriers at Denver International Airport. Southwest officials said their intention is to eventually absorb Frontier into their airline.

Under a separate deal proposed by Republic Airways, Frontier would retain its identity as a separate airline, Republic officials have said.

More bidders for Frontier could emerge by the Aug. 10 deadline set by the U.S. Bankruptcy Court. An auction deciding the airline's fate will follow.

The “Save the Animals” rally — so-called because of the animals on the tails of Frontier jets — is slated for noon Thursday, according to a posting at savefrontier.org, a website established by airline supporters.

“We will not stand by and do nothing and watch our company disappear without a fight,” the post says. “Frontier provides a huge service to the people of and the visitors to Colorado. If we go, it’s their problem, too.”

 

[Speedtape]

Frontier Airlines employees and supporters say they plan to hold a rally at the Denver City & County Building Thursday to support preservation of the airline.

Denver-based Frontier could disappear as a separate entity if competitor Southwest Airlines buys it.

Southwest said July 30 it intends to submit a $113.6 million bid to buy Frontier Airlines, which is trying to emerge from Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.

The deal would combine the No. 2 and 3 carriers at Denver International Airport. Southwest officials said their intention is to eventually absorb Frontier into their airline.

Under a separate deal proposed by Republic Airways, Frontier would retain its identity as a separate airline, Republic officials have said.

More bidders for Frontier could emerge by the Aug. 10 deadline set by the U.S. Bankruptcy Court. An auction deciding the airline's fate will follow.

The “Save the Animals” rally — so-called because of the animals on the tails of Frontier jets — is slated for noon Thursday, according to a posting at savefrontier.org, a website established by airline supporters.

“We will not stand by and do nothing and watch our company disappear without a fight,” the post says. “Frontier provides a huge service to the people of and the visitors to Colorado. If we go, it’s their problem, too.”

I know of NO community that has ever complained that Southwest served their community. If fact, there are many communities that are begging Southwest for service. As far as animals on the tail, Frontier does not have a monopoly on that. In fact, Southwest had a beautiful animal painted on the fuselage, Bar Refaeli. Better than any animal I've seen on an Airbus.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Part of me wonders if Republic's bid for Frontier was just a bluff, a shill bid.

Set a floor for the price, anticipating that SWA would want to acquire Frontier if they go up for auction, BB gets his loans repaid plus interest and RP walks away with the cash and no further obligation.

 

[Speedtape]

Part of me wonders if Republic's bid for Frontier was just a bluff, a shill bid.

Set a floor for the price, anticipating that SWA would want to acquire Frontier if they go up for auction, BB gets his loans repaid plus interest and RP walks away with the cash and no further obligation.

What did he bid, $10M? That would have been a steal! I guess we will see how serious he is. Just to keep it interesting, I hope he antys-up because within some margin, Southwest will surely counter. What were the terms of the loan?

 

[inflightboi175]

She puts her money with analyst Gary Chase of Barclays Capital. Hegeman quotes one of Chase's research notes on the subjects. It says*****"our analysis suggests that Southwest is losing a significant amount of money in Denver while Frontier has been profitable year to date. Frontier has made substantial cost progress during its bankruptcy proceedings and currently enjoys a significant revenue advantage to Southwest in Denver markets.”*****

But Chase isn’t the only Wall Street analyst taking that view this week. TheStreet.com quotes Avondale Partners analyst Bob McAdoo as saying Southwest has "overscheduled Denver, resulting in weak margins and high breakeven load factors." He estimates Southwest lost $38 million in the Mile High City in the first quarter of this year, adding that his data suggests*****about $7.2 million of that came on just the carrier’s nonstop routes to San Francisco and Denver. “If you look at the 15 worst markets in the entire Southwest system, six of them are in Denver," McAdoo says.
*****
Joining the argument is Bill Swelbar, a research engineer at the MIT International Center for Air Transportation. In Swelblog aviation blog, Swelbar*****makes what*****is perhaps one of the most-comprehensive cases supporting the idea that Southwest may be on the defensive in Denver.

He offers a detailed interpretation on how he thinks Southwest’s cost-structure stacks up in relation to its rivals, and about the role he sees that playing in Southwest’s bid for Frontier. (Swelblog: Pondering Southwest’s Potential Play on Frontier) One of Swelbar's key points is that "if Republic is successful in gaining control of Frontier, it would produce, overnight, a new and potentially threatening competitor to Southwest's domestic dominance. … Frontier would provide Republic a tremendous opportunity to transform not only itself but the U.S. domestic market. For Southwest, the Frontier play is not so much transformative as it is defensive" for three primary reasons, according to Swelbar.

One of those reasons, Swelbar writes, is that he thinks Southwest's move is – in part –***** to "(thwart) future competition by ensuring that Republic (currently a regional carrier flying for bigger partners) remains a capacity provider to the nations’ legacy carriers – at least in the near term."

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/blog.aspx

 

[firstthird]

that's how you do it. Now, I think it is an over reaction to the mainly positive stories last week and that the truth is somewhere in between. SWA is doing okay but DEN is not one of our better markets, much like PHL, it was predicated on someone going away or getting smaller, which hasn't really happened.

 

[silverado]

Is it simply who bids the most wins? I thought the judge and/or the board of Frontier had a say in this.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

SWA can't take some of the Frontier pilots (or the Lynx pilots), if they buy Frontier they have to take them all. SWA did NOT buy ATA. The Lynx thing I'm still a little confused. Could SWA buy Frontier Airlines ONLY, and not Frontier Holdings? Frontier Holdings owns both Frontier Airlines and Lynx, according to another poster, so, theoretically, could SWA buy Frontier AIRLINES only and leave Lynx alone???

Also, and this has been posted a lot, SWA's plan is to keep Frontier separate, until their planes are replaced. As SWA gets a new 737, they will phase out a Frontier Airbus. This will mean that SWA will require the same number of pilots with and without Frontier.

cliff
NBO

 

[DOVPILOT]

'

Southwest is simply buying out their competition in Denver. The following numbers reflect current traffic pct. of total Denver traffic:

Southwest 13.7% plus Frontier 21.2% for a total of 34.9%.

United carried 34.2%.

Should Southwest succeed, they will immediately control Denver traffic

Your theory only holds true if every pax from F9 comes to you, which I doubt.

 

[Speedtape]

Your theory only holds true if every pax from F9 comes to you, which I doubt.

Where do you think they are going to go?

 

[nerjdriver]

I hope RAH is sucessful. After giving it thought this would allow for a much quicker death to the RAH cancer. If they fail they may be able to stay in business....which is unacceptable.

 

[inflightboi175]

And when skywest or any other regional airline get the crj1000 they will be a cancer and scab as well

 

[Speedtape]

And when skywest or any other regional airline get the crj1000 they will be a cancer and scab as well

Or, Maybe, you could call it competition!

 

[Clyde Frog]

Or, Maybe, you could call it competition!

yeah, competition that drives down our wages, benefits and general quality of life. That's what I'd call it.

 

[Texx]

Hi!

SWA can't take some of the Frontier pilots (or the Lynx pilots), if they buy Frontier they have to take them all. SWA did NOT buy ATA. The Lynx thing I'm still a little confused. Could SWA buy Frontier Airlines ONLY, and not Frontier Holdings? Frontier Holdings owns both Frontier Airlines and Lynx, according to another poster, so, theoretically, could SWA buy Frontier AIRLINES only and leave Lynx alone???

Also, and this has been posted a lot, SWA's plan is to keep Frontier separate, until their planes are replaced. As SWA gets a new 737, they will phase out a Frontier Airbus. This will mean that SWA will require the same number of pilots with and without Frontier.

cliff
NBO

I would bet that JA from SKYW INC has already made a deal with SWA to take the Q400s off their hands.

As for the rest, look at Midway and that will be a sign on whats to come for the employees at Frontier.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Midway can NOT happen today, if SWA (or Republic) BUYS Frontier.

If they, and Republic, do NOT buy Frontier, then who knows???

cliff
NBO