USA TODAY: Southwest Beating Republic to Frontier

[inbound]

LUV would send a horrific blow to United..... along with every company who fly's for them. Good or bad I have no idea anymore. When did Southwest become the good guy?

 

[sshrae]

Bedford also will have a bunch of cash when SWA repays the loans made to Frontier by Republic. Bedford has set this up as a win win situation for himself. He wins if Republic has the best bid, or he wins when the winner has to cut him a check which he can use to invest in Midwest.

He doesn't want a check, he wants his own LCC. Not just Midwest but a large LCC that puts RAH in a more competitive position.

 

[Indy319FA]

He doesn't want a check, he wants his own LCC. Not just Midwest but a large LCC that puts RAH in a more competitive position.

Agreed. The point I was making is either way, he gets something and does not lose the cash invested in Frontier.

 

[sshrae]

Agreed. The point I was making is either way, he gets something and does not lose the cash invested in Frontier.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think BB is done with the auction, I'm just not sure that he will be able to match what swa can pay.

 

[pb1900]

If southwest aquires Frontier they will slowly phase out the airbuses and add 737's. They will then give preferintial hiring to the frontier pilots. If republic buys frontier they will intergrate the seniority lists possibly and expand frontier. So which is better? Southwest is simply buying out competition while republic is trying to expand frontier.

 

[Indy319FA]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think BB is done with the auction, I'm just not sure that he will be able to match what swa can pay.

I agree. In his town hall last month, he seemed much more interested in discussing Midwest than Frontier so all this could have been an effort to protect the investment in Frontier and draw other bidders out. Either way the investment in Frontier is protected. We'll find out how much he wants Frontier on the 11th.

 

[banditdriver]

I was told that the southwest offer was 8 mil more than the RAH....

Sorry no undercutting here Im pretty sure they are serious about a FU to RAH.

 

[curtaindriver]

Southwest will not be outbid, because they have the most to gain, and the most to lose. There will be no seniority integration. Frontier flies an incompatible aircraft to the Southwest fleet. The only things they bring to the table are gates and market share. There are no laws that apply to integration in this matter between 2 non union carriers. Frontier pilots will get a chance to interview, and if successful, will be newhires at the bottom. Not all Morse Air pilots were hired, and the ones that were went to the bottom as new hires--Morse Air flew 737's but they were 200's, which Southwest did not want because they were retiring the ones that they had.

It's Morris Air, dude

CD

 

[DoinTime]

If they do integrate, its my understanding that the law states there has to be relative seniority integration. After the American TWA debacle that law was passed.

The McCaskill-Bond legislation only applies if there is merger of the carriers. I don't think you would see a merger of Frontier and SWA. SWA would just grow their operation and shut down Frontier over time. This allows them to hand pick the new people from Frontier that they want to keep so that they can preserve their "culture" they speak so much of. The non-desirables will be left behind like in every other SWA acquisition.

 

[sshrae]

The McCaskill-Bond legislation only applies if there is merger of the carriers. I don't think you would see a merger of Frontier and SWA. SWA would just grow their operation and shut down Frontier over time. This allows them to hand pick the new people from Frontier that they want to keep so that they can preserve their "culture" they speak so much of. The non-desirables will be left behind like in every other SWA acquisition.

The McCaskill bond, that is the name I was looking for. Thanks for the clarification. I agree, this would make the most sense for SWA. I was not aware that the bond differentiated between being bought and merged. I can tell you there are more than a few F9 people who would not fit in with SWA.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

From what I understand, the McCaskill-Bond legislation applies if two organization's employees are combined. It doesn't matter if it is a merger or a buyout, or any other term you have for combining two employee groups.

If one pilot/employee group feels that the integration is not fair, they can ask for a moderator, and the moderator will make the final decision (unless you are the USAir/AWA East pilot group, and then you sue after you don't agree with the moderator's decision, either).

cliff
NBO

 

[bvt1151]

LUV would send a horrific blow to United..... along with every company who fly's for them. Good or bad I have no idea anymore. When did Southwest become the good guy?

UAL actually wins in this deal. They get rid of one competitor out of DEN without spending a dime! Pricing will actually improve for them since you won't have F9 to muddy the waters with their bankruptcy sales.

1 competitor out of DEN is better than 2.

 

[Clyde Frog]

The Airtran guys most likely think this is cool. They would love to get bought by Southwest. Even the senior guys would love it.

Umm, no.

 

[buscap]

Umm, no.

I forgot the smiley.

 

[sshrae]

Hi!

From what I understand, the McCaskill-Bond legislation applies if two organization's employees are combined. It doesn't matter if it is a merger or a buyout, or any other term you have for combining two employee groups.

If one pilot/employee group feels that the integration is not fair, they can ask for a moderator, and the moderator will make the final decision (unless you are the USAir/AWA East pilot group, and then you sue after you don't agree with the moderator's decision, either).

cliff
NBO

Thanks Cliff, this was my original understanding but was not sure about the wording on merger vs. buyout. Ill have to find a copy of this bill, this could mean everything to the F9 pilots.

 

[Speedtape]

First of all SWA did not buy MORSE AIR. Its MORRIS AIR ( Founded by June Morris and David Neelman in 92). Get your facts straight. And Morris Air had 737-300's. My father was a pilot with Morris Air during the SWA buyout. And I'm sure Citrus guys would love a buyout from SWA.....My old man is now a very senior Capt. with SWA.

Morris Air/Morse Air--I stand corrected on spelling--result is the same!
Morris Air operated 737-300. Correct

If your Father was a Captain with Morris Air, like other Morris Air Pilots that were hired, he was hired as a new hire. However, Captains' pay rates were frozen at Morris Air Rates until the Southwest rates caught up. I am not sure how Morris Air F/O's rates were handled. Morris Air was started in 1992, and Southwest made their offer in 1993. However, the sale was not consumated until 1994.

If your Father's seniority date was 1993, or more likely 1994 at the sale completion, then he has been at Southwest for about 15 years. He may be senior, depending on his base, but based on their seniority list, claiming that he is "very senior" may be a stretch. But, how it's characterized matters only to you.

Facts now corrected--Not much change in substance.

 

[Speedtape]

You seem pretty sure of yourself. Do you know something GK doesn't know? I don't know what you mean by 2 non-union carriers, they both have unions. The law was not an ALPA law if that is what you mean. It is possible if GK decides to keep them permanently separate that there will be no integration but as far as I know he has not said anything like that publicly, maybe he only told you. He has said that he will phase out the airbus, that is obvious but that does not mean he will phase out the crews.

To answer your question, I don't know GK, and never claimed I did. I'll cut to the chase. The acquisition will not be a merger. Furthermore, the two companies will not be operated separately long term--it's not efficient. The purpose of the acquisition is to gain prime gate access on the A Terminal, and to gain a strong local market share. It results in reducing competition, gaining market share, and pricing control. Anyone with average intelligence can figure that one out without knowing GK.

We can finally agree--the airbus will be phased out. Based on previous history, and you, of all people should know, most of the Frontier pilots will be offered employment, and most likely under the same conditions that your Father was. They will be at the bottom of the Southwest list, and will probably be at the Frontier rates, until the Southwest rates for their Southwest hire date surpass the Frontier rates.

Southwest pilots will speak to this issue at the appropriate time. I can assure you, if their position has not been formulated, it is being crafted now. If necessary, they will argue past practice be followed. In addition, a strong case for the career expectation argument can be made. Frontier pilots have a bleak career expectation without an acquisition. Southwest pilots are a part of the acquiring company, and we all know with some certainty, they have strong career expectations. Bottom line--it's a seniority issue as all acquisitions and/or mergers pose. MY money is on the Southwest pilots and past practice. Unfortunately for the Frontier pilots, they have NO leverage and an offer at the bottom of the SWA list is their best hope.

Just curious, are you a Frontier pilot and the son of a SWA pilot?

As far as GK, by law, he cannot make any such statements at this time. In addition, the bid has not been awarded by the Bankruptcy Judge. However, Southwest will not be out bid on this sale in the end. You can take that one to the bank!

 

[Speedtape]

Hi!

From what I understand, the McCaskill-Bond legislation applies if two organization's employees are combined. It doesn't matter if it is a merger or a buyout, or any other term you have for combining two employee groups.

If one pilot/employee group feels that the integration is not fair, they can ask for a moderator, and the moderator will make the final decision (unless you are the USAir/AWA East pilot group, and then you sue after you don't agree with the moderator's decision, either).

Re-Co-la

 

[Raoul Duke]

Didn't Southwest buy up ATA? What happened there...

how many ATA guys were offered positions at WN?

 

[$$$4nothin]

This might have been what BB wanted all along. SW buys F9, pays back the $150 million that is owed to RAH. USAIR is trying to get rid of 25 190's. How many 190's will BB be able to get for $150 million plus the $100 million he was going to use to buy F9. Things might actually work if BB can run the entire Midwest operation with no airplane payments. From what I have heard and read, the ACA operation would have worked if they didn't have huge lease payments and gas wasn't so expensive. Two things BB would have going for hime.

A fleet of paid for 190's and cheap labor flying the planes and the Midwest operation will most likely work. I understand there is a bit of competition in MKE and Kansis City, however with cost that low BB can do a lot of damage in a small niche market in the Midwest. The only real competition in those business markets would then be Airtran and RAH could easily compete with no plane payments and cheap azz labor. Just my $.02 of course.