USA Today on CAL 737 crash in Denver

[PropPiedmont]

That is not in the NTSB update. It says he tried the tiller once it was clear the airplane was leaving the runway, seems reasonable to me.

Is aileron into the wind proper in the 737? Or does is pop the spoilers on the upwind wing like the Airbus?

Yes you will have some roll spoiler deflection if the control wheel is rolled more than 10 degrees. You don't need to add much for a crosswind takeoff, but at 27kts of crosswind you better have some aileron in there. Drag from the roll spoiler is negligible.

 

[b707guy]

A left crosswind. Which technique do you use, A or B?

A. The wind is trying to roll the aircraft to the left so you need to hold right aileron as you takeoff.
B. You need to hold aileron into the wind so you should be holding left aileron as you takeoff.

As everyone else has answered, the correct answer is B. But I don't get where answer A is even an option. It'd be a very poor "technique" at best. At least in standard modern airliner configuration with a tail at the rear of the aircraft and with aft swept positive dihedral wings, a crosswind will attempt to roll the aircraft away from the wind, not into it. A right roll in your example case at DEN. If you tried to takeoff with right control wheel input in a strong left crosswind, you're asking to scrape something on the right side of the airplane on the runway (engine, wingtip, whatever's going to hit first...). The right rudder will overcome the aircraft's natural weathervane tendency and keep the nose pointed straight down the runway. The left aileron input will keep the wings level or banked ever so slightly into the wind (much more critical on some planes than on others...)

What kind of airplane were you flying (I'm guessing it wasn't built by Fender ), what were the conditions when you flew with the 737 captain, and what technique did he or she use that was incorrect? What were the results?

 

[Singlecoil]

Of course the answer is B.

It was a 737 we were flying. He was taking off with a quartering tailwind and holding the yoke the wrong way. Twice on the takeoff roll I said the winds were out of the east and he said, "I know." As he rotated, the airplane began to bank the wrong way, which he quickly corrected as I was reaching for the yoke.
We didn't discuss the situation, but it got me thinking that he must be confused about what to do with a quartering tailwind.
When taxiing, you hold the yoke the other way, you dive away from a tailwind (in light aircraft), but on takeoff you hold the aileron into the wind. I just wonder if more people are confusing the two or not.

 

[UALRATT]

Exerpt from the NTSB Preliminary report: "Physical inspection of the engines and information from the FDR has not indicated any evidence of pre-impact malfunctions with either engine. The FDR data shows that number one engine power was reduced before that of the number two engine during the accident sequence, and examination of the engine indicates that this reduction is consistent with snow and earth ingestion as the airplane departed the runway. The FDR data also shows that both engines were commanded into reverse thrust following rejection of the takeoff by the flight crew, which occurred after the aircraft had already left the runway."

Interesting observation from the NTSB report. Just wondering what occurred after the aircraft had already left the runway. Reverse thrust or the rejection of takeoff? As a side question, how far off the centerline would you allow a drift to continue before rejecting the takeoff. This accident reminds me off USAir in LGA back in 1989 and the lessons learnt from that experience... http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR90-03.pdf

 

[Mike man]

Just wondering what occurred after the aircraft had already left the runway. Reverse thrust or the rejection of takeoff?

No need to wonder the NTSB Preliminary Report spells it out for you...

...The FDR data also shows that both engines were commanded into (3) reverse thrust following (2) rejection of the takeoff by the flight crew, which occurred after the (1) aircraft had already left the runway.

Let me help...
FIRST: aircraft left the runway
SECOND: rejection of the takeoff by the flight crew
THIRD: both engines were commanded into reverse thrust

 

[PreContact]

Where exactly are the "thrust levers" in a 737? Mine has throttles. The french use thrust levers (pronounced thrust leever).

PIPE

They're called thrust levers on the 757/767 as well.

 

[SuperFLUF]

I don't fly the 73 so maybe someone who does can chime in but on the bus the tiller will become inop once the aircraft reaches a certain speed. Back when I flew the EMB-145, same thing, I forget at which speed. Doesn't the Boeings have this feature?

The 737 tiller is mechanically connected to the nosewheel steering and works until the gear is retracted.

....I personally would like to hear what CO's FOM say's about tiller usage. Mine says don't touch it above 20 knots....

CO's advice is similar.

Boeing's 737 AFM states that use of the tiller is not recommended above 30kts. It warns that use of the tiller above 20 kts could result in loss of directional control due to over controlling the nose wheel.
It states that maximum nose wheel steering effectiveness is available above taxi speeds by using the rudder pedal steering.

Over the years, in all of the tiller equipped airplanes I've flown, I have observed Captains guarding and using the tiller during takeoff and landing at speeds far exceeding taxi speed.
This is something I have not seen emphasized by any training program I've been through. I only learned about the over controlling issue after reading an NTSB verdict on a 747 that went off the side of a runway during a reject. (JFK winter time in the mid '90's?) In fact I even had an instructor who did some of my E120 training admonish me over and over to "guard the tiller" during take off and landing. This was after I read that 747 accidient report and I tried to argue the point but it was no use. So the result was "cooperate to graduate".

We don't know yet what caused 1404 to leave the runway, but in any case, maybe this will bring some attention to the dangerous consequences of using the tiller at speeds it was not designed to be used at?

 

[JimmyKool]

I think it was USAir 5050 in LGA. Capt used the tiller on T/O. Not the main cause but contributed.

 

[ultrarunner]

I think it was USAir 5050 in LGA. Capt used the tiller on T/O. Not the main cause but contributed.

Yeah, I think the 'tiller usage' in the above mentioned crash was in response to the rudder trim fully deflected to one side.

Ultra--

 

[Sy-bill]

They're called thrust levers on the 757/767 as well.

So why do they them "Auto Throttles"