USA Today article on Regional Pilots

[Bringupthebird]

Randy Babbit's on the case
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124454581000197621.html#articleTabs%3Dcomments

Random downloads of CVR's? Splendid.

 

[livin'thesim]

Lowly, your second and third paragraphs are spot on.
I just have a hard time believeing those "students" entering those types of puppy mills are that naive.

I respect your opinion, I think you have some valid points I just can't agree with your first paragraph. Let's just leave it as agreeing to disagree. Take Care

Koko

Well, I suppose it depends. I am no defender of these puppy mills, but has anyone seen the advertisement for JetUniversity before they went under? It implies that from zero to RJ can take as little as 9 months. When an ad like that runs on TV, someone stupid is bound to believe it.

Having said that, anyone who embarks on such a plan of action, and spends that kind of cash has no excuse for not investigating the situation further. Kids being what they are, impatience and hubris will carry the decision to its conclusion.

Airline management absolutely dropped the ball on pilot qualifications and proficiency.

 

[BoilerUP]

The VAST MAJORITY are good pilots, and as long as they keep their head on straight and fly professionally, there's never an issue. But every once in a while, you get a bonehead, and I'd prefer to ask to ride up front in the jumpseat if someone looks like they're a little young and cavalier for my comfort level.

So, do you base your desire to "ride up front in the jumpseat" solely on the age of one/both crewmembers, or age AND a combination of other factors in the two minutes you exchange pleasantries with them while asking for a ride?

 

[Lear70]

So, do you base your desire to "ride up front in the jumpseat" solely on the age of one/both crewmembers, or age AND a combination of other factors in the two minutes you exchange pleasantries with them while asking for a ride?

Certainly not solely on age, although if I were to see the 19 year old I was flying with the month before I resigned in the left seat later this year in his 2nd month off OE, just off high mins, and another new-hire 19 year old in the right seat? Yeah, I'd likely ask to ride up front. If they said no and there was weather involved or I had my family with me? I'd probably and take the next flight (and did exactly that about 2 years ago with another crew pairing that made me uncomfortable).

And yes, PCL has done that many times. Stick a newly-upgraded Captain (sometimes not even off probation themselves) with a new-hire, very young F/O who thinks the Captain certainly knows everything he/she needs to safely operate the flight and wouldn't do anything stupid.

How do you think the 3701 accident in Jefferson City happened?

It's the nature of reserve, usually only the very junior in each seat end up together if they have to replace an entire crew. We were fighting for much higher "green on green" rules during that time period, and I remember many a pilot meeting where senior management was defending pairing new-hire Street Captains with ZERO jet time with new-hire F/O's with ZERO jet OR turboprop time and less than 500 hours total time. The discussion about "risk management" came about during these same discussions, and that was 3, 4, even 6 years ago.

Maybe it's pre-biased me to make a decision on this issue, but we are all creatures of our experiences and mine, in this regard, haven't often been positive...

 

[BoilerUP]

I understand where you're coming from on the risk management side, especially given your past experiences at 9E.

That said, if I were an RJ captain and I thought somebody wanted to ride in the jumpseat solely to supervise me because I'm young (25) and they don't trust my experience/judgement/airmanship, when they don't know my background or resume, I'd politely ask that jumpseater to find another airplane to catch a free ride on.

I'm not an RJ captain though, so the point is moot...just trying to better understand your rationalization.

 

[Abernathy]

I understand where you're coming from on the risk management side, especially given your past experiences at 9E.

That said, if I were an RJ captain and I thought somebody wanted to ride in the jumpseat solely to supervise me because I'm young (25) and they don't trust my experience/judgement/airmanship, when they don't know my background or resume, I'd politely ask that jumpseater to find another airplane to catch a free ride on.

If someone were concerned and wanted to sit in the cockpit after a string of regional crashes attributed to egregious pilot error, I'd tell them to make themselves comfortable and then I'd do my job. And hopefully, that would reassure them.

And, I woudn't blame them. In their shoes, I would feel just as uncomfortable.

 

[Lear70]

I understand where you're coming from on the risk management side, especially given your past experiences at 9E.

That said, if I were an RJ captain and I thought somebody wanted to ride in the jumpseat solely to supervise me because I'm young (25) and they don't trust my experience/judgement/airmanship, when they don't know my background or resume, I'd politely ask that jumpseater to find another airplane to catch a free ride on.

I'm not an RJ captain though, so the point is moot...just trying to better understand your rationalization.

Not a problem, and with the stagnation in the industry, finding someone in the left seat with less than 3,000-4,000+ hours and 3+ years in the airplane is becoming increasingly rare, but it happens.

Incidentally, I don't just go up and say, "tell me your qualifications, do you have a resume on you?" - LOL... It's an overall impression of professionalism combined with age and my comfort level with the crew. If they came across as flippant, immature, and I knew they were green and they declined my request in the way you mentioned above (by suggesting I find another airplane to take a free ride on), I'd take them up on their offer. Lots of ways to get from Point A to Point B.

Also, I don't ride for free these days nearly as much as I used to. Yesterday I was on a revenue ticket but still have j/s privileges which is a nice mix...

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Don't take it personally guys and gals!

Like it or not, our record as regionals sucks as of late. As I said in an earlier post, I WELCOME any crew (or passengers for that matter) to come on up and have a chat. I think that my professional bearing and knowlege should put any concerns to rest. My goal is to give you a safe and comfortable ride and it will be hard for you to feel comfortable if you are fretting about the crew up front. Ask anything you want... I understand.

No sir, this captain absolutely does NOT take the inquisitiveness personally. I see it as an opportunity to make a new buddy, to learn what else is going on in the industry and maybe find a better watering hole on the overnight.

Like it or not, we regional folks have a lot to prove. Respect isn't given freely... It must be earned over and over again. I personally don't mind earning the respect I get everytime I sit in the left seat. Got questions or concerns? Welcome aboard and come on up, I say.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Oh yeah... To say nothing of the fact that other airline employees are bonus members of my crew in an emergency. I see it has having that many more resources to draw from in case things go south.

It is a CRM thing, I suppose.

 

[Lear70]

Don't take it personally guys and gals!

Like it or not, our record as regionals sucks as of late. As I said in an earlier post, I WELCOME any crew (or passengers for that matter) to come on up and have a chat. I think that my professional bearing and knowlege should put any concerns to rest. My goal is to give you a safe and comfortable ride and it will be hard for you to feel comfortable if you are fretting about the crew up front. Ask anything you want... I understand.

No sir, this captain absolutely does NOT take the inquisitiveness personally. I see it as an opportunity to make a new buddy, to learn what else is going on in the industry and maybe find a better watering hole on the overnight.

Like it or not, we regional folks have a lot to prove. Respect isn't given freely... It must be earned over and over again. I personally don't mind earning the respect I get everytime I sit in the left seat. Got questions or concerns? Welcome aboard and come on up, I say.

Great attitude!

Every once in a blue moon when I have to "hitchhike" home and it's not quite time to pick my son up, I'm happy to come pick up the regional crew that gave me a ride but got stuck at some hotel that's nearby NOTHING and take them downtown; always nice to make new friends. :beer:

Oh yeah... To say nothing of the fact that other airline employees are bonus members of my crew in an emergency. I see it has having that many more resources to draw from in case things go south.

It is a CRM thing, I suppose.

Imagine that...

 

[Max Powers]

You obviously know nothing about military training. Do you really think cost is not a factor and therefore pilots get an unlimited amount of training?

Military pilot training is very regimented. A set number of flights in each phase, followed by check rides. The pace is very quick, and you either keep up or get eliminated. No more training because daddy has enough money to buy you more hours.

Well your wrong about me knowing nothing about UPT. You are correct in much of your assessment but, Part 61 training is very slow, expensive and NOT regimented. That is part of the problem. Civy guys can't afford to fly straight for 1.5 years with lots of sim time that UPT guys get.

Not all civy guys are bank rolled by rich daddys. Many take several years slowly gaining experience and that means quality is sacraficed in training. Doesn't mean they will suck as a pilot once they gain further experience.

I have flown with both military and civilian and know a many fighter guys some of which couldn't come close to the skill of b-1900 former great lakes guy. And vice versa.

Anyway it is a very complex problem and the key is GOOD TRAINING once that person is hired.

 

[major payne]

you dont have to did to deep to find a major crash with experienced pilots either

 

[Wesb737fo]

you dont have to did to deep to find a major crash with experienced pilots either

That's a true statement. It's probably in bad taste to start keeping score here. But statistically speaking, do you want pilots with more experience or less experience in the cockpit? It's fairly simple. The commuters used to be a place to get 121 experience on smaller equipment. Now it's a place where bigger airlines can farm out 50-100 seat flying at very low cost.

 

[Mike man]

...bandwagon...

Where? How do I get on blindly?

 

[Mike man]

...do you want pilots with more experience or less experience in the cockpit?

Where does one gain enough experience to satisfy you? And how much is enough? 1000 hours, 3000, 5000? In my opinion 5000 hours as a minimum isn't going to change much or 10,000 hours, 5000 or 10,000 hours in a 152 isn't going to change anything. You can still have multiple failures in a 141 program with examining authority and not disclose it.

 

[Wesb737fo]

Where does one gain enough experience to satisfy you? And how much is enough? 1000 hours, 3000, 5000? In my opinion 5000 hours as a minimum isn't going to change much or 10,000 hours, 5000 or 10,000 hours in a 152 isn't going to change anything. You can still have multiple failures in a 141 program with examining authority and not disclose it.

I think you are reading too much into my response. It has nothing to do with me being satisfied with a certain amount of flight experience at the regional level. It has more to do with the relaxation of scope clauses that puts relatively inexperienced pilots in ever larger and more complex jets and turbo-props such as the Q400. Those aircraft should be flown by their respective carriers and not farmed out to the lowest bidder.

That benefits everyone in the long run, but , you see, unfortunately, I too was part of the problem over a decade ago when I was hired (with 500 hours) in the right seat of a US AIR express outfit up north with little experience in icing conditions. The difference being that I started in a 19 seat Beech 1900 and not 90 seat CRJ or Q400. Eventually I wound up in a 50 seat CRJ-200 for $56/hr, which at the time was a source of frustration for mainline pilots. Now we are up to 100 seats for "REGIONAL JETS" (insert laugh).

Bottom line, my concern is with protecting the jobs of senior more experienced pilots with stronger scope language in our contracts. Apparently that didn't even help MidEx.

Wes

 

[Dornier 335]

What I've been saying for a while... where there's smoke, there's fire.

1 case of multiple checkride failures in all the Major Airline accidents the last 10 years.

Regionals: in every single accident at least one of the crewmembers had multiple checkride failures except for one, and in that case, the F/O was terminated after it was discovered he lied on his job application in the first place.

They especially bashed Pinnacle, citing the Jefferson City crashes' Captain - 7 checkride failures before he was hired basically as a street Captain on the CRJ, plus the multiple other crashes in the last 5 years. One common thread: almost all of them had a low-time crew and/or GIA pilots.

You get what you pay for, and the system is going to be short of experienced talent in the right seat as long as the only people who will take the jobs are extremely low-time, low-experience, or sub-standard (multiple checkride failure) pilots.

Now the big question is: what are they going to do about it and will it have any kind of trickle-up effect on the majors? Will there be a push to incorporate the regionals back into the majors? Will there be a push to incorporate some type of higher standards for all Part 121 pilots?

Or will it all get swept under the rug next month?

not sure if it was mentioned before, but the Pinnacle street Captain was an ex Waterskier. Trans States used to have the biggest _______s in the training department (and some of them are still there!). If your regional airline has disgruntled old farts that need to take their frustration out on you, then the history of failed checkrides cannot really be used as a reference. My former airline used to have a real nutcase that oddly enough passed every checkride. On line he would do the most incredibly dumb/dangerous things until he got finally got busted.

Checkrides are not the only way in measuring a skill IMHO.

 

[Bjammin]

Don't take it personally guys and gals!

Like it or not, our record as regionals sucks as of late. As I said in an earlier post, I WELCOME any crew (or passengers for that matter) to come on up and have a chat. I think that my professional bearing and knowlege should put any concerns to rest. My goal is to give you a safe and comfortable ride and it will be hard for you to feel comfortable if you are fretting about the crew up front. Ask anything you want... I understand.

No sir, this captain absolutely does NOT take the inquisitiveness personally. I see it as an opportunity to make a new buddy, to learn what else is going on in the industry and maybe find a better watering hole on the overnight.

Like it or not, we regional folks have a lot to prove. Respect isn't given freely... It must be earned over and over again. I personally don't mind earning the respect I get everytime I sit in the left seat. Got questions or concerns? Welcome aboard and come on up, I say.

Give me a copy of your schedule so I can make sure I fly my family on your aircraft. Awesome attitude!

 

[SLOTH]

I think that anyone who puts a value on how many check-rides someone has passed or not is deluding themselves into thinking that it is the best way to weed out the good from the bad pilots. Just like when we fly, it's all about trend monitoring and making the appropriate corrections. Only when someone has failed multiple check-rides because of the same problem in all of those, can you say that that person has no business in the world of airlines or aviation for that matter. Also, just because someone fails a check-ride doesn't mean that they didn't bust their ass hard enough to prepare or perform. Even when someone has passed all of their check-rides with flying colors, doesn't mean that they are the cats meow in the pilot seat. There's something such as attitude and command-ability, which is much harder to test for in a couple of hours.

 

[maru657]

This was never a case of just the pilots. It goes all the way back to de-regulation and then in order to prove that it wasn't an astonishingly bad idea, allowing airlines to cut back on training required in order to save money. After all the Delta crashes, incidents and re-inventing windwshear in the 80's was mere'ly symptomatic of the effects of bad law making. These bad descisions were repeated by one airline after another. Recently it seems that FedEx cannot land an MD11 without crashing. Furthermore airline flight ops management compounded these errors by imposing education and physical standards that had nothing to do with actual skill or experience and real experience was denigrated when the various airlines stated that they wanted to mold all new hires into a standard format and prior experience might defeat that process. When all of your pilots are over 6' tall and look like poster boys in double brested blazers, shouldn't you ask what the most important requirments are for employment with that airline?

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Give me a copy of your schedule so I can make sure I fly my family on your aircraft. Awesome attitude!

Thanks for the compliment. If your family ever has a burning desire to go to LGA and experience some of the oldest Dash 8's in the biz, welcome aboard!

All of this training talk has had me thinking a bit... Someone here mentioned Trans States. As a former Waterskier myself, I can attest to the poor quality and mean spirit of their training staff (at least in the late '90s). I failed my initial new hire ATR checkout there... The instructor "faked" putting the gear down to when I called for it. When I caught it, he put them down. Now the landing checks got completed at DA +950 feet instead of the FOM mandated DA +1000 feet. I elected to continue, being single engine and all and I figured we were close enough to profile to make it safe. He busted me. Legit? Sure, I was off profile. Realistic? No. Mean spirited? Yes, especially the part where he told me he was glad I busted so he could go home early. I went out the next day, did one SE ILS and off to the line I went. Not really a positive learning experience, I must say. This is just my personal anecdote. I am sure other regional guy have similar horror stories.

At any rate, I got through it. I never had failed a ride before that point, and have never failed one in the nearly 10 years since. So obviously, one checkride bust cannot be indicative of future performance.

That begs the question: How would one measure the skill of a pilot over a career spent flying in such a way as to make analysis accurate and fair to all involved? How could this be done transparently, encouraging learning while protecting the flying public?

All of the checkrides we take outside of the airlines (and at airlines without AQP) are pass/fail. In analyzing the records, we see only the final grade, but necessarily the reason for that grade. At many airlines now we have AQP. AQP (when correctly administered) is a marvel of data collection. Each task is graded on a number scale and is data collected for two reasons: First, to measure the performance of the pilot over time and second, to identify areas of corporate weakness so that future training events can be focused on problem areas.

My thought is this: Change the way we keep records across the industry. If you see a record of failures, you can then go back and determine the reason for those failures. If the applicant has a history of failing the same sorts of tasks then you probably don't want to employ that individual. Every checkride should be treated as a data collection tool that can then be studied to determine pilot proficiency and industry effectiveness at managing the threats posed by that particular task.

Basically... Without a robust system of data collection, any attempt to use checkride history as a guide to hiring is doomed to be a weak half measure.