USA Today article on Regional Pilots

[Bringupthebird]

Randy Babbit's on the case
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124454581000197621.html#articleTabs%3Dcomments

Random downloads of CVR's? Splendid.

 

[livin'thesim]

Lowly, your second and third paragraphs are spot on.
I just have a hard time believeing those "students" entering those types of puppy mills are that naive.

I respect your opinion, I think you have some valid points I just can't agree with your first paragraph. Let's just leave it as agreeing to disagree. Take Care

Koko

Well, I suppose it depends. I am no defender of these puppy mills, but has anyone seen the advertisement for JetUniversity before they went under? It implies that from zero to RJ can take as little as 9 months. When an ad like that runs on TV, someone stupid is bound to believe it.

Having said that, anyone who embarks on such a plan of action, and spends that kind of cash has no excuse for not investigating the situation further. Kids being what they are, impatience and hubris will carry the decision to its conclusion.

Airline management absolutely dropped the ball on pilot qualifications and proficiency.

 

[BoilerUP]

The VAST MAJORITY are good pilots, and as long as they keep their head on straight and fly professionally, there's never an issue. But every once in a while, you get a bonehead, and I'd prefer to ask to ride up front in the jumpseat if someone looks like they're a little young and cavalier for my comfort level.

So, do you base your desire to "ride up front in the jumpseat" solely on the age of one/both crewmembers, or age AND a combination of other factors in the two minutes you exchange pleasantries with them while asking for a ride?

 

[Lear70]

So, do you base your desire to "ride up front in the jumpseat" solely on the age of one/both crewmembers, or age AND a combination of other factors in the two minutes you exchange pleasantries with them while asking for a ride?

Certainly not solely on age, although if I were to see the 19 year old I was flying with the month before I resigned in the left seat later this year in his 2nd month off OE, just off high mins, and another new-hire 19 year old in the right seat? Yeah, I'd likely ask to ride up front. If they said no and there was weather involved or I had my family with me? I'd probably and take the next flight (and did exactly that about 2 years ago with another crew pairing that made me uncomfortable).

And yes, PCL has done that many times. Stick a newly-upgraded Captain (sometimes not even off probation themselves) with a new-hire, very young F/O who thinks the Captain certainly knows everything he/she needs to safely operate the flight and wouldn't do anything stupid.

How do you think the 3701 accident in Jefferson City happened?

It's the nature of reserve, usually only the very junior in each seat end up together if they have to replace an entire crew. We were fighting for much higher "green on green" rules during that time period, and I remember many a pilot meeting where senior management was defending pairing new-hire Street Captains with ZERO jet time with new-hire F/O's with ZERO jet OR turboprop time and less than 500 hours total time. The discussion about "risk management" came about during these same discussions, and that was 3, 4, even 6 years ago.

Maybe it's pre-biased me to make a decision on this issue, but we are all creatures of our experiences and mine, in this regard, haven't often been positive...

 

[BoilerUP]

I understand where you're coming from on the risk management side, especially given your past experiences at 9E.

That said, if I were an RJ captain and I thought somebody wanted to ride in the jumpseat solely to supervise me because I'm young (25) and they don't trust my experience/judgement/airmanship, when they don't know my background or resume, I'd politely ask that jumpseater to find another airplane to catch a free ride on.

I'm not an RJ captain though, so the point is moot...just trying to better understand your rationalization.

 

[Abernathy]

I understand where you're coming from on the risk management side, especially given your past experiences at 9E.

That said, if I were an RJ captain and I thought somebody wanted to ride in the jumpseat solely to supervise me because I'm young (25) and they don't trust my experience/judgement/airmanship, when they don't know my background or resume, I'd politely ask that jumpseater to find another airplane to catch a free ride on.

If someone were concerned and wanted to sit in the cockpit after a string of regional crashes attributed to egregious pilot error, I'd tell them to make themselves comfortable and then I'd do my job. And hopefully, that would reassure them.

And, I woudn't blame them. In their shoes, I would feel just as uncomfortable.

 

[Lear70]

I understand where you're coming from on the risk management side, especially given your past experiences at 9E.

That said, if I were an RJ captain and I thought somebody wanted to ride in the jumpseat solely to supervise me because I'm young (25) and they don't trust my experience/judgement/airmanship, when they don't know my background or resume, I'd politely ask that jumpseater to find another airplane to catch a free ride on.

I'm not an RJ captain though, so the point is moot...just trying to better understand your rationalization.

Not a problem, and with the stagnation in the industry, finding someone in the left seat with less than 3,000-4,000+ hours and 3+ years in the airplane is becoming increasingly rare, but it happens.

Incidentally, I don't just go up and say, "tell me your qualifications, do you have a resume on you?" - LOL... It's an overall impression of professionalism combined with age and my comfort level with the crew. If they came across as flippant, immature, and I knew they were green and they declined my request in the way you mentioned above (by suggesting I find another airplane to take a free ride on), I'd take them up on their offer. Lots of ways to get from Point A to Point B.

Also, I don't ride for free these days nearly as much as I used to. Yesterday I was on a revenue ticket but still have j/s privileges which is a nice mix...

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Don't take it personally guys and gals!

Like it or not, our record as regionals sucks as of late. As I said in an earlier post, I WELCOME any crew (or passengers for that matter) to come on up and have a chat. I think that my professional bearing and knowlege should put any concerns to rest. My goal is to give you a safe and comfortable ride and it will be hard for you to feel comfortable if you are fretting about the crew up front. Ask anything you want... I understand.

No sir, this captain absolutely does NOT take the inquisitiveness personally. I see it as an opportunity to make a new buddy, to learn what else is going on in the industry and maybe find a better watering hole on the overnight.

Like it or not, we regional folks have a lot to prove. Respect isn't given freely... It must be earned over and over again. I personally don't mind earning the respect I get everytime I sit in the left seat. Got questions or concerns? Welcome aboard and come on up, I say.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Oh yeah... To say nothing of the fact that other airline employees are bonus members of my crew in an emergency. I see it has having that many more resources to draw from in case things go south.

It is a CRM thing, I suppose.

 

[Lear70]

Don't take it personally guys and gals!

Like it or not, our record as regionals sucks as of late. As I said in an earlier post, I WELCOME any crew (or passengers for that matter) to come on up and have a chat. I think that my professional bearing and knowlege should put any concerns to rest. My goal is to give you a safe and comfortable ride and it will be hard for you to feel comfortable if you are fretting about the crew up front. Ask anything you want... I understand.

No sir, this captain absolutely does NOT take the inquisitiveness personally. I see it as an opportunity to make a new buddy, to learn what else is going on in the industry and maybe find a better watering hole on the overnight.

Like it or not, we regional folks have a lot to prove. Respect isn't given freely... It must be earned over and over again. I personally don't mind earning the respect I get everytime I sit in the left seat. Got questions or concerns? Welcome aboard and come on up, I say.

Great attitude!

Every once in a blue moon when I have to "hitchhike" home and it's not quite time to pick my son up, I'm happy to come pick up the regional crew that gave me a ride but got stuck at some hotel that's nearby NOTHING and take them downtown; always nice to make new friends. :beer:

Oh yeah... To say nothing of the fact that other airline employees are bonus members of my crew in an emergency. I see it has having that many more resources to draw from in case things go south.

It is a CRM thing, I suppose.

Imagine that...

 

[Max Powers]

You obviously know nothing about military training. Do you really think cost is not a factor and therefore pilots get an unlimited amount of training?

Military pilot training is very regimented. A set number of flights in each phase, followed by check rides. The pace is very quick, and you either keep up or get eliminated. No more training because daddy has enough money to buy you more hours.

Well your wrong about me knowing nothing about UPT. You are correct in much of your assessment but, Part 61 training is very slow, expensive and NOT regimented. That is part of the problem. Civy guys can't afford to fly straight for 1.5 years with lots of sim time that UPT guys get.

Not all civy guys are bank rolled by rich daddys. Many take several years slowly gaining experience and that means quality is sacraficed in training. Doesn't mean they will suck as a pilot once they gain further experience.

I have flown with both military and civilian and know a many fighter guys some of which couldn't come close to the skill of b-1900 former great lakes guy. And vice versa.

Anyway it is a very complex problem and the key is GOOD TRAINING once that person is hired.

 

[major payne]

you dont have to did to deep to find a major crash with experienced pilots either

 

[Wesb737fo]

you dont have to did to deep to find a major crash with experienced pilots either

That's a true statement. It's probably in bad taste to start keeping score here. But statistically speaking, do you want pilots with more experience or less experience in the cockpit? It's fairly simple. The commuters used to be a place to get 121 experience on smaller equipment. Now it's a place where bigger airlines can farm out 50-100 seat flying at very low cost.

 

[Mike man]

...bandwagon...

Where? How do I get on blindly?

 

[Mike man]

...do you want pilots with more experience or less experience in the cockpit?

Where does one gain enough experience to satisfy you? And how much is enough? 1000 hours, 3000, 5000? In my opinion 5000 hours as a minimum isn't going to change much or 10,000 hours, 5000 or 10,000 hours in a 152 isn't going to change anything. You can still have multiple failures in a 141 program with examining authority and not disclose it.