USA Today article on Regional Pilots

[rigger]

The media is barking up the wrong tree with this whole checkride issue. There are a lot of factors that figure into busted checkrides. I'm afraid that if we start putting a number on what's acceptable and what's not we're going to open a Pandora's box for future pilots.

In the military, I saw checkrides used as training tools, a way to move a person out of a position, and even just to prove a point. There were some IP courses that would bust guys two to five times before they would pass them. I knew someone that busted a crew commander ride because the aircraft wasn't properly catered.

The same can be said on the civilian side. There are some flight schools that would bust a guy with an in house examiner in order to milk some extra money out of the student. How about some of the university programs that bust students in the name of "maintaining high standards".

The same can be said for the airlines. We've all heard and seen the stories. I could go on all day with this. The point I'm trying to make is that if we pin a number on what's acceptable and what's not the emphasis will be placed on the number and not on experience or background. The initial CFI rating has a very high first time fail rate. Do we want young pilots avoiding the rating in order to avoid a potential bust? Do we want military pilots avoiding advanced training or some units because it could harm a future civilian career? Do we want civilian pilots seeking the easiest flight schools and Santa Claus examiners in order to avoid a pink slip? In order to preserve their careers pilots will seek the path of least resistance as opposed to the best training.

How bout we focus on quality and experience of the individual as opposed to a number!

Rant off

p.s.- No I haven't busted a bunch of rides.

Your last line says it all, all your ratings and all those hours and you have not busted a bunch of rides.....amazing.......no not really you are a professional and took/take your responsibility seriously. I have flown 20 years and never busted a ride (yes it could happen tomorrow) but it's not because I am great or better then anyone else it's because I bust my ass to do my job (in training and out) to the best I possibly can (as do most of us) and this ethic/professionalism shows in my checks!!! As it does in most of our industry, but folks that bust -3-4-5 rides......I don't want in my flightdeck when the S it hits the fan! that shows a total lack of professionalism!

As for kids not starting because they don't want to fail a ride GOOD I don't think that kind of uneasyness belongs in any cockpit. I want the best flying my family around (the guy or gal that says bring it on! not someone who runs away from the tough real world!!!!

 

[Lear70]

I have been a regional airline pilot for 10 years now. For the first time in my career, I have had two major airline pilots deadheading aboard my Dash 8 stop up front to "chat" or "see how it is going" in the past week. An FO for a legacy carrier stopped up front to chat because we had taken a maintenance delay and his son was onboard. The real reason for the chats was apparent after only a few words. They were worried. And I don't blame them at all.

The night that 3407 went down, we as a profession obviously did not have our best night. That event reinforced a common stereotype of us regional guys as inexperienced, unprofessional and out of our depth. We (as regional pilots) further perpetuate that image when we conduct ourselves in a manner which lacks the dignified and serious bearing our responsibilities demand. I am by no means suggesting that all, or even a majority, of regional pilots are less than professional. Furthermore I recognize that major airline pilots on occassion will act in a manner which is beneath the profession. My point is this: As regional guys and gals, we are under a microscope. We need to act and fly accordingly for our own good and for the good of those lives we are charged to protect.

I don't blame the pilots who have recently visited my flight deck for the reticence they have shown. Those of you who have concerns should do what they have done... Come on up and say hi. Hopefully the vast majority of us who ARE skilled professionals can allay your concerns and earn your respect as fellow pilots. I personally appreciated their honesty regarding their concerns and it was my pleasure to put them at ease.

Well-said.

I was a revenue passenger on a PCL flight today. Think I stopped by the flight deck and chatted? You betcha, but I've been doing the same thing ever since I started flying at PCL and knew what kind of pilots were coming through the mill.

The VAST MAJORITY are good pilots, and as long as they keep their head on straight and fly professionally, there's never an issue. But every once in a while, you get a bonehead, and I'd prefer to ask to ride up front in the jumpseat if someone looks like they're a little young and cavalier for my comfort level.

How bout we focus on quality and experience of the individual as opposed to a number!

Absolutely. Multiple failed checkrides is an automatic detractor of "quality". Hence the stigma against it.

You fail one ride, like an initial CFI which we all know is hell, or your initial upgrade training at a regional if you don't have much PIC time and you're nervous as a cat on a hot, tin roof, that's just the way life goes (no, I've never failed one, but knock on wood, I still have 28+ years in front of me and anyone can have a bad day).

You fail 2 rides, now you've got me wondering what's up. You fail 3 or more? Forget it, find a different career. That kind of "quality" doesn't pass my litmus test for "professional pilot", and I'm not alone, there's a REASON it's in almost every pilot contract I can think of.

 

[Max Powers]

Maybe Regional guys have more check-ride failure because they fly at regionals? In other words Regionals don't give nearly the amount of sim sessions as your average Major. So being younger and only having flown at a regional your chances of a check-ride bust is higher. Think of the former military guy where costs in training was never a question and then he/she moves over to a Major who has a nice AQP program and lots of nice CBT and the likes with myriad amounts of sim sessions etc etc. Also flying a T-prop on steam gauges is much more demanding than flying a nice glass jet with a G/A button.

 

[jetjock6]

Maybe Regional guys have more check-ride failure because they fly at regionals? In other words Regionals don't give nearly the amount of sim sessions as your average Major. So being younger and only having flown at a regional your chances of a check-ride bust is higher. Think of the former military guy where costs in training was never a question and then he/she moves over to a Major who has a nice AQP program and lots of nice CBT and the likes with myriad amounts of sim sessions etc etc. Also flying a T-prop on steam gauges is much more demanding than flying a nice glass jet with a G/A button.

Another very good point. In the regionals it was all about saving money. At best they would give guys an extra sim or two. After that they were gone.

On a foot note to that, when I was at brand X regional. There was a big push from big brother to hire minorities. Big brand X even went as far as putting them through college and paying for a type before sending them into the real world. They sent them to the regional with around 300 hours of training and no practical experience of any kind. I think 8 to 10 got to the airline and I know of only one that made it to the line fully qualified. All got a lot of extra training that was not alloted to other pilots. I heard that one got as much as 100 hrs. of OE before being sent packing. My real problem with this, outside of putting inexperienced pilots flying passengers, is in the fact that the ones that didn't make it might have been good pilots someday if they had been given the opportunity to acquire some experience and confidence before being tossed into a EICAS jet in a fast paced regional environment. As it was they were just a pawn in a political game.

 

[koko nw]

Maybe Regional guys have more check-ride failure because they fly at regionals? In other words Regionals don't give nearly the amount of sim sessions as your average Major. So being younger and only having flown at a regional your chances of a check-ride bust is higher. Think of the former military guy where costs in training was never a question and then he/she moves over to a Major who has a nice AQP program and lots of nice CBT and the likes with myriad amounts of sim sessions etc etc. Also flying a T-prop on steam gauges is much more demanding than flying a nice glass jet with a G/A button.

Your right but most folks who move on to the joy's of a G/A button have already paid there dues flying those steam gauges. Did they bust a bunch of checkrides?

Come on 90 days?!!! with just 200 hundred hours to begin with? I feel sorry for the Captain's flying with these folks.

The folks enrolling in these puppy mills are just as guilty. These folks want the "EASY" button and there willing to sacrifice there training and in the end the safety of those folks who there entrusted with their lives. Shame on them.

 

[michael707767]

Think of the former military guy where costs in training was never a question and then he/she moves over to a Major who has a nice AQP program and lots of nice CBT and the likes with myriad amounts of sim sessions etc etc.

You obviously know nothing about military training. Do you really think cost is not a factor and therefore pilots get an unlimited amount of training?

Military pilot training is very regimented. A set number of flights in each phase, followed by check rides. The pace is very quick, and you either keep up or get eliminated. No more training because daddy has enough money to buy you more hours.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

The folks enrolling in these puppy mills are just as guilty. These folks want the "EASY" button and there willing to sacrifice there training and in the end the safety of those folks who there entrusted with their lives. Shame on them.

With all due respect, I think you are wrong here.

Students enrolling in pilot puppy mills are just believing what they are told. Their impressions of what it takes to be successful in the industry are formed by people who want their money. Even these "creative salesmen" aren't at fault, really. They are simply filling a demand created by the airlines' thirst for young pilots who will accept Ritz crackers for pay.

The true blame lies with the airlines themselves. They know beyond a shadow of a doubt how detrimental to safety having low experience pilots on the flight deck can be. They know that the people they hire have not had a truly serious vetting of their capacity to succeed in a fast paced airline environment when the stuff is hitting the fan. Airline management has been relying on luck and technology to keep the airplanes out of the dirt, all the while singing the mantra of "a single level of safety."

The paradigm finally, and inevitabley, failed with Colgan 3407. In my mind, regional airline management and culture killed those 50 people. The negligence shown by airline management is indeed criminal.

 

[CitationLover]

Just heard from our POI, only 300 commercial licenses issued in 2008. The problem of an abundance of eager new pilots is going away. With the supply of pilots drying up things will eventually go our way.

Think so? Guess what, United and the Star Alliance are trying an experiment to combat this. They've already done it at my airline: Midwest.

If they can outsource our jobs to lower paid regional pilots, they can then turn around and outsource those jobs to foreign pilots.

 

[koko nw]

With all due respect, I think you are wrong here.

Students enrolling in pilot puppy mills are just believing what they are told. Their impressions of what it takes to be successful in the industry are formed by people who want their money. Even these "creative salesmen" aren't at fault, really. They are simply filling a demand created by the airlines' thirst for young pilots who will accept Ritz crackers for pay.

The true blame lies with the airlines themselves. They know beyond a shadow of a doubt how detrimental to safety having low experience pilots on the flight deck can be. They know that the people they hire have not had a truly serious vetting of their capacity to succeed in a fast paced airline environment when the stuff is hitting the fan. Airline management has been relying on luck and technology to keep the airplanes out of the dirt, all the while singing the mantra of "a single level of safety."

The paradigm finally, and inevitabley, failed with Colgan 3407. In my mind, regional airline management and culture killed those 50 people. The negligence shown by airline management is indeed criminal.

Lowly, your second and third paragraphs are spot on.
I just have a hard time believeing those "students" entering those types of puppy mills are that naive.

I respect your opinion, I think you have some valid points I just can't agree with your first paragraph. Let's just leave it as agreeing to disagree. Take Care

Koko

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

I respect your opinion, I think you have some valid points I just can't agree with your first paragraph. Let's just leave it as agreeing to disagree. Take Care

Koko

There is always room for respectful differences of opinion. Happy trails!

 

[Bringupthebird]

Randy Babbit's on the case
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124454581000197621.html#articleTabs%3Dcomments

Random downloads of CVR's? Splendid.

 

[livin'thesim]

Lowly, your second and third paragraphs are spot on.
I just have a hard time believeing those "students" entering those types of puppy mills are that naive.

I respect your opinion, I think you have some valid points I just can't agree with your first paragraph. Let's just leave it as agreeing to disagree. Take Care

Koko

Well, I suppose it depends. I am no defender of these puppy mills, but has anyone seen the advertisement for JetUniversity before they went under? It implies that from zero to RJ can take as little as 9 months. When an ad like that runs on TV, someone stupid is bound to believe it.

Having said that, anyone who embarks on such a plan of action, and spends that kind of cash has no excuse for not investigating the situation further. Kids being what they are, impatience and hubris will carry the decision to its conclusion.

Airline management absolutely dropped the ball on pilot qualifications and proficiency.

 

[BoilerUP]

The VAST MAJORITY are good pilots, and as long as they keep their head on straight and fly professionally, there's never an issue. But every once in a while, you get a bonehead, and I'd prefer to ask to ride up front in the jumpseat if someone looks like they're a little young and cavalier for my comfort level.

So, do you base your desire to "ride up front in the jumpseat" solely on the age of one/both crewmembers, or age AND a combination of other factors in the two minutes you exchange pleasantries with them while asking for a ride?

 

[Lear70]

So, do you base your desire to "ride up front in the jumpseat" solely on the age of one/both crewmembers, or age AND a combination of other factors in the two minutes you exchange pleasantries with them while asking for a ride?

Certainly not solely on age, although if I were to see the 19 year old I was flying with the month before I resigned in the left seat later this year in his 2nd month off OE, just off high mins, and another new-hire 19 year old in the right seat? Yeah, I'd likely ask to ride up front. If they said no and there was weather involved or I had my family with me? I'd probably and take the next flight (and did exactly that about 2 years ago with another crew pairing that made me uncomfortable).

And yes, PCL has done that many times. Stick a newly-upgraded Captain (sometimes not even off probation themselves) with a new-hire, very young F/O who thinks the Captain certainly knows everything he/she needs to safely operate the flight and wouldn't do anything stupid.

How do you think the 3701 accident in Jefferson City happened?

It's the nature of reserve, usually only the very junior in each seat end up together if they have to replace an entire crew. We were fighting for much higher "green on green" rules during that time period, and I remember many a pilot meeting where senior management was defending pairing new-hire Street Captains with ZERO jet time with new-hire F/O's with ZERO jet OR turboprop time and less than 500 hours total time. The discussion about "risk management" came about during these same discussions, and that was 3, 4, even 6 years ago.

Maybe it's pre-biased me to make a decision on this issue, but we are all creatures of our experiences and mine, in this regard, haven't often been positive...

 

[BoilerUP]

I understand where you're coming from on the risk management side, especially given your past experiences at 9E.

That said, if I were an RJ captain and I thought somebody wanted to ride in the jumpseat solely to supervise me because I'm young (25) and they don't trust my experience/judgement/airmanship, when they don't know my background or resume, I'd politely ask that jumpseater to find another airplane to catch a free ride on.

I'm not an RJ captain though, so the point is moot...just trying to better understand your rationalization.

 

[Abernathy]

I understand where you're coming from on the risk management side, especially given your past experiences at 9E.

That said, if I were an RJ captain and I thought somebody wanted to ride in the jumpseat solely to supervise me because I'm young (25) and they don't trust my experience/judgement/airmanship, when they don't know my background or resume, I'd politely ask that jumpseater to find another airplane to catch a free ride on.

If someone were concerned and wanted to sit in the cockpit after a string of regional crashes attributed to egregious pilot error, I'd tell them to make themselves comfortable and then I'd do my job. And hopefully, that would reassure them.

And, I woudn't blame them. In their shoes, I would feel just as uncomfortable.

 

[Lear70]

I understand where you're coming from on the risk management side, especially given your past experiences at 9E.

That said, if I were an RJ captain and I thought somebody wanted to ride in the jumpseat solely to supervise me because I'm young (25) and they don't trust my experience/judgement/airmanship, when they don't know my background or resume, I'd politely ask that jumpseater to find another airplane to catch a free ride on.

I'm not an RJ captain though, so the point is moot...just trying to better understand your rationalization.

Not a problem, and with the stagnation in the industry, finding someone in the left seat with less than 3,000-4,000+ hours and 3+ years in the airplane is becoming increasingly rare, but it happens.

Incidentally, I don't just go up and say, "tell me your qualifications, do you have a resume on you?" - LOL... It's an overall impression of professionalism combined with age and my comfort level with the crew. If they came across as flippant, immature, and I knew they were green and they declined my request in the way you mentioned above (by suggesting I find another airplane to take a free ride on), I'd take them up on their offer. Lots of ways to get from Point A to Point B.

Also, I don't ride for free these days nearly as much as I used to. Yesterday I was on a revenue ticket but still have j/s privileges which is a nice mix...

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Don't take it personally guys and gals!

Like it or not, our record as regionals sucks as of late. As I said in an earlier post, I WELCOME any crew (or passengers for that matter) to come on up and have a chat. I think that my professional bearing and knowlege should put any concerns to rest. My goal is to give you a safe and comfortable ride and it will be hard for you to feel comfortable if you are fretting about the crew up front. Ask anything you want... I understand.

No sir, this captain absolutely does NOT take the inquisitiveness personally. I see it as an opportunity to make a new buddy, to learn what else is going on in the industry and maybe find a better watering hole on the overnight.

Like it or not, we regional folks have a lot to prove. Respect isn't given freely... It must be earned over and over again. I personally don't mind earning the respect I get everytime I sit in the left seat. Got questions or concerns? Welcome aboard and come on up, I say.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Oh yeah... To say nothing of the fact that other airline employees are bonus members of my crew in an emergency. I see it has having that many more resources to draw from in case things go south.

It is a CRM thing, I suppose.

 

[Lear70]

Don't take it personally guys and gals!

Like it or not, our record as regionals sucks as of late. As I said in an earlier post, I WELCOME any crew (or passengers for that matter) to come on up and have a chat. I think that my professional bearing and knowlege should put any concerns to rest. My goal is to give you a safe and comfortable ride and it will be hard for you to feel comfortable if you are fretting about the crew up front. Ask anything you want... I understand.

No sir, this captain absolutely does NOT take the inquisitiveness personally. I see it as an opportunity to make a new buddy, to learn what else is going on in the industry and maybe find a better watering hole on the overnight.

Like it or not, we regional folks have a lot to prove. Respect isn't given freely... It must be earned over and over again. I personally don't mind earning the respect I get everytime I sit in the left seat. Got questions or concerns? Welcome aboard and come on up, I say.

Great attitude!

Every once in a blue moon when I have to "hitchhike" home and it's not quite time to pick my son up, I'm happy to come pick up the regional crew that gave me a ride but got stuck at some hotel that's nearby NOTHING and take them downtown; always nice to make new friends. :beer:

Oh yeah... To say nothing of the fact that other airline employees are bonus members of my crew in an emergency. I see it has having that many more resources to draw from in case things go south.

It is a CRM thing, I suppose.

Imagine that...