US Wholly's sold out

[Dragonbravo]

AJ's rights

AJ, whatg about your "rights" to fly an RJ? You guys had plenty of opportunities to set up a flow thru agreement with the wholy-owned carriers. But you snubbed us at every turn. Now look where it has gotten you. I say, "You've made your bed, now sleep in it."

 

[AJWick]

hey dragon,

I've been at the regionals 8 yrs and I voted on flow thru with my previous carrier. I am all for it. I however only worked at usair for only two years. Sadly, no flow thru existed there. But hey thats the way it goes I guess. I didnt get a chance to vote on that.

As far as making my bed and sleeping in it. If the rj's dont come to usair, we will all be sleeping on the same bed! LOL

I am sorry for you as a w/o guy...I know LOA 81 is screwed up and far from perfect. I hope something good comes out of all this, but I know it will upset one group while satisfying another.

When I said " rights to fly an RJ", I simply meant shouldnt we all furloughees get the opportunity to fly them but not at the cost of furloughing someone at another carrier. Thats all. I just didnt think it would be fair to have guys furloughed anywhere mainline or express and then increase flying at other carriers with RJs doing the same route that we did on an F100 or Dash 8.

So dont take it personally.
Good Luck to you and all the furloughees out there.

 

[ATRCA]

AJWick,

Frankly I'm appalled that you think you have the right to fly an RJ at a company whos senority list you are not on.

You accepted the risk of leaving your past job for the bottom of the list at Airways. Sorry, but $hit happends. Your company has furloughed you and now you have the right to take someone elses job because ???

I know it sucks, and I would be in favor of furloughed Airways pilots being hired by WO's as long as those WO's were not furloughing their pilots to make room. Total BS.

The pilots of WO's are no less deserving of the jobs they have than the pilots of mainline. This is a horrible deal and will only make worse the whipsawing that has taken over our industry.

Good luck, I have a close freind who is furloughed from Airways, but he has accepted his fate and found employment that doesn't but someone else in the position he finds himself in now.

See yah.

 

[Tim47SIP]

ATRCA wrote
" Good luck, I have a close freind who is furloughed from Airways, but he has accepted his fate and found employment that doesn't but someone else in the position he finds himself in now. "

Could you please let me know what you are talkning about?? I can't figure out what you are tying to say. Thanks, Tim.

 

[cws]

I think he was trying to say that his friend took the risk of leaving his old flying job to work for US. Since then he got furloughed and doesn't expect to go back and bump somebody at the WO.

-I think

 

[Dragonbravo]

Flow Back

AJ,

Exactly, you did not sign a flow thru. Which means NO flow back. Sorry, that's the way it works. You made your bed, now sleep in it. If Dad had signed up for a flow thru, OR RJ's years ago, we would not be in this predicament. The furloughed mainline pilots would have their security and things would be better in the first place because of the increased traffic from the RJ's. So why is it that USAir can only have the RJ's? Everybody else has their express carriers fly them. And why hide behind a Alter Ego Carrier to get them?

 

[FlyComAirJets]

AJ,

Comair pilots are well aware of and grateful for the level of support provided by ALL of the USAirways pilots during last year's strike. There is one key point that you need to be aware of; just like every other airline that I know of, pilots do not hire pilots. Management does the hirin' and management does the firin'.

At Comair there are two factions at odds over the hiring process. On the one hand, you have the flight school contingent who want to hire primarily (or perhaps, exclusively) very low time pilots from the Academy. While not particularly "seasoned," if they get through the training process, they do very well especially in light of all the hiring being done in the late 90s by other carriers.

On the other hand, there is the chief pilots' office who used to do the hiring up until the early 90s. They tended to favor pilots with previous 121/135 experience and military helo pilots. A look at the seniority list for many years was a who's who of failed regional airlines and a fair representation of every chopper squadron in the military (or so it seemed). These people did very good jobs, too. Hey, I was one!

Recent events have markedly increased the quantity and quality of applicants and so the tug-of-war between the two departments has heated up. Presently there seems to be a mix of these two types of new hires. One other factor, I am afraid that Pay For Training might rear its ugly head (that is just my unfortunate guess -- I could be wrong and sure hope that I am).

If I WAS in charge of doing the hiring, Delta pilots would be at the very top of my list followed by furloughed pilots at all the other carriers but again it is not our call. They should keep their seniority numbers. I do not buy into the argument about them leaving in droves thereby leaving the company high and dry because anyone that has ever seen a recall schedule knows that it is painfully slow and drawn out process with plenty of notification so the company can plan on boceau new hires (and wouldn't that just thrill the Academy folks?).

One last point, AJ, if you buy into the notion that somehow pilots hire pilots then aren't you in part responsible for the present mess of not hiring furloughed mainline pilots? Why didn't your MEC set up some type of preferred hiring program i.e. flow through or whatever, years ago? How long do the W.O.'s date back, hasn't it been a decade or so? Remember their PID intent -- USToo as in, we are USAir Pilots Too -- which mysteriously disappeared? Did you ever speak up or do ANYTHING except lament the current state of the industry?

 

[AJWick]

FLy comairjets

you make a good point. Yeah...i think pilots should hire pilots.
I am glad you are grateful for our support during your strike. I know you guys are and I have many friends over there.

Hey Drag...not sure what you were trying to say. But maybe its your lack of experience that all you can do is bash me as a furloughed mainline guy.

Lets see what mainline MEC's next move is. They have made a counter proposal. 315 plus jets to express. strings attached as always!

I need to make my bed and sleep in it. lol

 

[Dragonbravo]

Experience

Yeah from what I hear, out lack of experience is why we can't have jets. Somehow the arguement keeps coming up that the WO pilots can't handle jets. 315 RJ is good. But how many other carriers have strings attached to every delivery they take?

 

[skydiverdriver]

Can't handle jets? We put our Academy grads direct into the right seat of an rj, and they seem to do okay. Of course, they have an experienced captain, but I'm sure your guys are no different. Personally, I think flying a jet is easier. I think anyone who says an experienced turboprop pilot cannot handle a jet is not based in reality. Good luck to you guys.

 

[ahaly]

financing

Just a question that poped into my head.....

how is US Airways in a position to start up a new certificate (Midatlantic) and pick up all these RJ's when they are in a dysmal financial situation. Where are they going to get the financing to order these new jets, and how fast can they come onto the property? Have they even negotiated a contract/pay rates for these RJ's.....I cant wait to see what comes of that.

All in all....I dont like seeing what is happening at the expense of the W/O's

 

[Tim47SIP]

From that Billion dollar Gov loan they are trying to secure. If it dosn't materialize, then I suspect you wont see many RJ's at all except at the contract carriers. US will be forced into bankruptcy and it is a guessing call from there. Good luck to all of you US guys. You are going to need it.

 

[meanstreak]

What's this latest rumor I keep hearing on Mesa buying Allegheny?

 

[AJWick]

havent heard that rumour.

But thats why I am here. To listen to and spread rumours.

 

[bdejong]

Hey Tim

I agree with you. What I meant by having rights to fly the RJS is simply that I too should have the opportunity to fly but not at the expense of our wholly owned furloughees.

But all for one and one for all doesnt seem to be the case at ALPA.
Mainline or Regional.

I am still disappointed that Comair is giving preferential hiring to the usair express w/o furloughees. Why not all the alpa furloughees? Just curious? Did the comair guys forget that we alpa members helped with the strike fund and offered jumpseat priviledges during their time? Hey it may not have been much but it was some kind gesture we offered and I was hoping the favour would be returned.

Good Luck to us all.

AJ,
Management is not giving priority to the mainline furloughs because they don't want to give up their seniority number at mainline. The wholly owned guys are expected to resign their old position. The decision was not our mec's to make. I hope that clarifies the situation for you.
Brian De Jong

 

[surplus1]

I feel your pain. That sucks about Mid Atlantic and US selling the wholly owns downstream.

Not only does it suck, the negotiation of LOA-81 violates the ALPA Constitution and the Duty of Fair Representation. The affected ALG/PDT/PSA pilots should take legal action to enjoin ALPA from implementing its provisions and demand their legal rights.

However, I hope you understand that as a furloughed mainline guy, I should have some rights to fly an RJ. For is it fair to grow the regionals wholly owned or not, and have mainline guys on the streets? just the flip side of the coin. thats all.

First, I'm genuinely sorry that you are furloughed and hope your company will recover rapidly and recall you.

No, I don't understand that you shoud have some rights to fly an RJ unless your company buys that aircraft, places it at USAirways and recalls you.

If the situation were reversed, USAirways hiring and the wholly owned regionals furloughing, would you think they should have some rights to fly the USAirways new equipment? If not, why do you think you should have that right? Please, don't tell me its "your" flying for it is not. The flying belongs to USAG and as one of the 4 subsidiaries, you have no rights outside of USAirways, "your" subsidiary.

Your group had the opportunity to prevent the creation of the wholly owned subsidiaries. You didn't. Your group had the opportunity to prevent the subcontracting of USAir Group flying outside of the wholly owned subsidiaries. You didn't.

Your group had (and actually still has) the opportunity to solve the current problem, provide additional jets to USAir Group, recall your furloughed pilots, prevent the furloughing of ALG/PDT/PSA pilots, prevent the creation of a 5th subsidiary of USAG, and stop further subcontracting. You didn't even try.

Instead, you took care of yourselves to the detriment of your brothers. Together, ALPA and the USAir MEC have created an albatross around your own necks and are threatening to destroy the careers of three groups of ALPA pilots (all USAG subsidiaries) in order to satisfy yourselves. Additionally, you are asking other pilot groups, external to USAirGroup, but represented by ALPA, to abrogate their seniority and their contracts and forcibly place your pilots on their list at higher pay rates, in Captain positions, all in exchange for jets they have no guarantee of geting but are guaranteed to NOT get if they do not abdicate to your predatory proposal. Incredibly, the union to which we all belong equally, supports you in this effort.

In its history ALPA has done many things that we all wish had been done better, but this one takes the cake.

It is not nearly over in that your parent company USAG is now demanding another 160 RJs and $595 millions in concessions from you. I can't wait to see what you'll do next.

There are far better ways to solve the problems. The union (ALPA) your MEC and the MECs of the other wholly owned subsidiaries (yes other, for you are a USAG wholly owned subsidiary yourself) have more leverage now, with your Company in very serious jeopardy, that perhaps you have ever had. You could correct the errors of the past, prevent new errors and solve the problem without hurting any USAG pilots or the Company that employs all of you. I regret haveing to say this, but the USAirMEC leadership is sorely lacking as is the leadership of ALPA. LOA-81 is a disaster for every union pilot and a bonanza for management. I'm amazed and angry but regretably, not surprised.

I had read on a different thread that comair is giving preferential treatment to the w/o furloughed guys for hiring.
I replied on that thread stating thats great but is it fair? Heck, shouldnt all alpa furloughed guys get the same treatment? Especially the furloughed DL guys? maybe they are. Afterall we helped comair pilots during their strike with the strike fund and jumpseat rights.

Comair is hiring and I am quite sure you would get the same preference as any other furloughed ALPA pilot. You would also have to meet the same requirements, which include the resignation of your seniority number. Comair does not (up to now) hire pilots that hold dual seniority numbers from any source. That also applys to DL guys. [I think ASA takes DL pilots with retention of DL numbers but not sure.]

I and other Comair pilots are appreciative of the strike benefits provided by fellow ALPA pilots. However, that is an obligation of every ALPA pilot, it is not a favor. When other ALPA carriers were on strike, Comair pilots paid assesments just as you did when we were on strike. We also offered our jumpseats to striking pilots. Unlike some other ALPA carriers, during the NWA strike we not only opened our JS to NWA pilots, but also to the pilots of Mesaba and Express1 who, though not on strike, were put out of work by the NWA strike. Many mainline carriers did not offer their JS to Mesaba and Express1, but only to NWA. Honoring one's obligations during a strike by an ALPA carrier does not entitle one to special treatment. It is expected of all of us. Apparently that's a novel idea in some quarters.

We are also appreciative of those that donated to our family fund and I wish to note the fact that the pilots of American Airlines gave our family fund, by themselves, almost as much as was received from all ALPA carriers combined. We are very grateful to the AA pilots and the disparity did not go unnoticed.

To my knowledge, when we were on strike and Delta was threatening to dissolve our company, not a single mainline MEC proffered as much as a promise of and effort to provide our people with preferential interviews. Why is it that you seem to expect more from us than you are willing to give to us?

My friend, I have nothing against you personally, I sincerely regret your furlough just as I regret the furlough of other pilots everywhere, but it is time we call a spade, a spade!

If we airline pilots do not come together and stop the things that are pitting us against each other, it will not bode well for any of us in the future. Management isn't really winning, we have simply given up the fight. Surely we can't expect them to refuse a surrender. Can we?

Surplus1
CMR

 

[FR8mastr]

surplus, Excellent post!!!

 

[fatburger]

PSA reached an agreement for J4J yesterday with management.

 

[surplus1]

Does that mean the wholly owned have decided to sell themselves down the river?

 

[skydiverdriver]

I think United tried to help our guys during the strike.