US To Sell F-22s To Allies

[Weasel Keeper]

Is nothing sacred? :uzi:

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,88282,00.html

 

[Gorilla]

Typical. Remember, we also sold F-15's to Israel and Japan. There's so much exotic and classified hardware on the F-22, I don't know how they'd keep it quiet.

Sounds budgetary to me. Sell F-22's, make 'em cheaper, buy more for yourself.

 

[stonewall]

Typical. Remember, we also sold F-15's to Israel and Japan. There's so much exotic and classified hardware on the F-22, I don't know how they'd keep it quiet.

Sounds budgetary to me. Sell F-22's, make 'em cheaper, buy more for yourself.

Shack.

 

[XShipRider]

Typical. Remember, we also sold F-15's to Israel and Japan. There's so much exotic and classified hardware on the F-22, I don't know how they'd keep it quiet.

Sounds budgetary to me. Sell F-22's, make 'em cheaper, buy more for yourself.

And we sold front line Naval fighters to Iran once too. Although I often
wondered if they had an export version with much of the US and NATO
classified hardware removed.

 

[LJDRVR]

What a crock. A small handfull of three and four star generals greedily paving the way for their own retirement riches as Lockheed Martin employees or consultants. Meanwhile our grunts still don't have the resources they need to properly fight this war, which is even sadder when you consider their needs are not even pennies on the dollar compared to this F-22 debacle. And let's not even get started on the AF's decision to scuttle large portions of several MWS in favor of more F-22's. (The B-52 comes to mind.)

 

[Draginass]

Export versions of aircraft do not necessarily get the same avionics/capability as US mil versions.

 

[VaB]

And we sold front line Naval fighters to Iran once too. Although I often
wondered if they had an export version with much of the US and NATO
classified hardware removed.

Never sold the Intruders, though. Those were the only ones that were really important.

 

[SIG600]

Never sold the Intruders, though. Those were the only ones that were really important.

Hahaha.. snap.

And we sold Tomcats (woulda been Eagles if the Shah had picked em) to a friendly gov't, PRIOR to the Shah being over thrown. The 14's were also sabbotaged by the Grumman employee's there too, prior to them leaving the country.

 

[Gorilla]

Hahaha.. snap.

And we sold Tomcats (woulda been Eagles if the Shah had picked em) to a friendly gov't, PRIOR to the Shah being over thrown. The 14's were also sabbotaged by the Grumman employee's there too, prior to them leaving the country.

I'd heard that also. Is it true? There would have been nobody more capable of trashing a fighter on a subtle level than the manufacturer's avionics technicians. I've got a mental picture... "Hee hee, let's pull all the LRU-14's, the avionics bus data router units, and toss them into the latrine trench out back. Without the router units, none of the avionics talk to each other, and it'll still fly, but not be able to fight." Something like that! Good job Grumman boys!

 

[SIG600]

I'd heard that also. Is it true? There would have been nobody more capable of trashing a fighter on a subtle level than the manufacturer's avionics technicians. I've got a mental picture... "Hee hee, let's pull all the LRU-14's, the avionics bus data router units, and toss them into the latrine trench out back. Without the router units, none of the avionics talk to each other, and it'll still fly, but not be able to fight." Something like that! Good job Grumman boys!

I read Adm. Gilcrest's book "Tomcats!" a long time ago... read it in there.

 

[Prop2Jet]

Keep it away from the ChiComs.

 

[RJP]

Maybe we could trade some 'raptors' for a squadron of SU-37s.

By the way, which fighters have we NOT sold abroad? The Stinkbug and the HOG come to mind. (Though there used to be rumors that the Turks were getting some Hogs, but it never happened)

 

[XShipRider]

F-16

Maybe we could trade some 'raptors' for a squadron of SU-37s.

By the way, which fighters have we NOT sold abroad? The Stinkbug and the HOG come to mind. (Though there used to be rumors that the Turks were getting some Hogs, but it never happened)

If memory serves, the F-16 was not only sold abroad but produced under
license abroad. This was the US attempt to quash the Euro-fighter or
one of it's predecessors. Talk about technology transfer!

Proceedings magazine had quite a few articles regarding this subject, at
the time that is.

The F-22 deal seems to give our wonderful Chinese friends [sic] way too many
espionage opportunities. Not that we haven't given away the store already in
many respects.

 

[Gorilla]

There was a rumour floating around in the 1980's that an AIM-9L, an extremely capable, all-aspect heat seeker, was stolen from a NATO ally when 3 guys simply jumped a fence, grabbed a Lima, and tossed it back over the fence tail-first. They threw the missile in a pickup, and were never found. Shortly thereafter, Soviet IR missiles suddenly began to perform much better. Hmmmm....

 

[stonewall]

There was a rumour floating around in the 1980's that an AIM-9L, an extremely capable, all-aspect heat seeker, was stolen from a NATO ally when 3 guys simply jumped a fence, grabbed a Lima, and tossed it back over the fence tail-first. They threw the missile in a pickup, and were never found. Shortly thereafter, Soviet IR missiles suddenly began to perform much better. Hmmmm....

That's an odd rumor. The AIM-9M is about 4th or 5th on the list when it comes to heaters. They Python and Archer are much better, and always have been. The AIM-9X, however....whole new ball game.

 

[stonewall]

What a crock. A small handfull of three and four star generals greedily paving the way for their own retirement riches as Lockheed Martin employees or consultants. Meanwhile our grunts still don't have the resources they need to properly fight this war, which is even sadder when you consider their needs are not even pennies on the dollar compared to this F-22 debacle. And let's not even get started on the AF's decision to scuttle large portions of several MWS in favor of more F-22's. (The B-52 comes to mind.)

You really believe this is the reason we might sell Raptors to Japan? Those guys are going to get consulting jobs regardless. Further, they won't be the ones to make the call. You do realize the BUFF is 50 years old? It's effective, but how long do you want to keep it around?

Maybe we should just scrap the F-22 and keep the -16s and -15s until they're 75 years old. Then we'll think of something later on.

 

[Gorilla]

That's an odd rumor. The AIM-9M is about 4th or 5th on the list when it comes to heaters. They Python and Archer are much better, and always have been. The AIM-9X, however....whole new ball game.

You sure Magnum? Remember, this was the early '80's, right after the Lima came out. The Atoll was then the heater of choice for most of the Warsaw pact, and lacked all-aspect capability because their seeker technology was dung.

Prior to the Lima, for us it was often the Papa, and we know that envelope is crap, so the Lima was a huge step up for us, despite its look-down tendency to glom onto hot desert rocks, camel farts, stuff like that, instead of enemy aircraft.

 

[kcowgergmm]

well im not the smartest but that doesnt sound like a good idea to me. I think we should sell them f-14 tomcats since they are being retired.

 

[XShipRider]

Never sold the Intruders, though. Those were the only ones that were really important.

Or the EA version of same. Same goes for the S-3. It makes you think
there must have been some cutting edge electronics on those birds.

 

[SIG600]

Or the EA version of same. Same goes for the S-3. It makes you think
there must have been some cutting edge electronics on those birds.

You can always take the stereo out before you sell the car...

 

[epic!]

what ever happened the Army's RAH-66 Comanche? havent heard anything about it in quite a long time

 

[epic!]

nevermind, just read it got cancelled. sucks, that thing seemed pretty cool

 

[lowtimedriver]

Still can't believe that Northorp got hosed on the F-20 and then on the YF-23. If the USAF went with the 23, it would have been operational by now and would have saved the government billions. I still can't believe that the F-22 isn't fully operational. The 22 is a pile.

 

[XShipRider]

Still can't believe that Northorp got hosed on the F-20 and then on the YF-23. If the USAF went with the 23, it would have been operational by now and would have saved the government billions. I still can't believe that the F-22 isn't fully operational. The 22 is a pile.

I may be wrong since I'm recalling from items I read oh so many years ago.
Both my brain cells were drowning in gin at the time so the details may be
somewhat askew. But, both cells firing now, the F-20 Tigershark had a
better "cold start to wheels up" time than the F-16. It lost because the
F-20 used a modified F-5 airframe, something the USAF didn't want. It also
had an improved single engine versus the F-5's dual engine config' and the
avionics had been upgraded.

I'm sure politics played a major factor in the demise of Northrop. Reagan's
cabinet okayed selling, licensing and building the more advanced F-16 to
NATO countries and other allies.

The USAF wasn't interested in the old, recycled technology of the F-20. Other
countries didn't want the F-20 because the USAF wasn't buying it. This pretty
much sealed the fate of the whole program.

And one other tidbit, the F-20 was designed and produced without government
funding. So Northrop took a bath when the USAF went with the Falcon.

You have to figure careers were being made guiding the F-16 development
program to fruition.

 

[Gorilla]

America has shown over and over that it would rather spend money than blood when it comes to hardware. Technology is expensive. The F20 was cheap, easy to maintain, and could be bought in large numbers. It also would get its ass kicked by a more advanced fighter.

I mentioned this once before, but the common statement that "It's the man, not the machine" is simply false. When we (very experienced air to air instructors) deployed in T-38's to support the Luke F-16 RTU, noob students in the viper kicked our asses... it was a bloodbath. Richard Bong, if he had flown a Sopwith camel instead of a P-38 in WW2 against the Japanese Zeros would have died, quickly.

The F-22 has teething problems, but it is an awesome platform. 2 V 8 against Weapon's School F-15's was a slaughter. All the Eagles died, over and over.

If our hardware acquisition people want to promote quantity over quality, then do so, but don't pretend that the F-20, or any other low tech fighter, is the equivalent of a more modern machine like a 15, 16, or 22.

 

[SIG600]

The F-22 has teething problems, but it is an awesome platform. 2 V 8 against Weapon's School F-15's was a slaughter. All the Eagles died, over and over.

After reading some of the classified details of Cope India (as mentioned in other threads) I'm convinced the Air Force needs to fight tooth and nail for full funding of this thing. I think Magnum said it best... we don't want a fair fight.

 

[414Flyer]

I can say I have been head to head against an Indian Air Force SU-30MKI . I think they were just screwing with me, I saw a flight of 3 at my 11 high, they turned in on me, descended, with one going under me, then the other 2 off my right wing.

India has done a lot to modernize over the last 10 year. Not just hardware, but learning tactics and being flexible in the air, which is something they did not have before when under Soviet tactics. Now with their Su-30MKI, they have a plane that can outlast, outfly and outgun most other planes in the world.

As for the Intruder and Tomcat, USN would probably be better off if they had the Tomcat 21 upgrade, and had acquired the A-6F. F/A-18E tried to do everything, and ends up with a degree of mediocity in it all.

 

[SIG600]

As for the Intruder and Tomcat, USN would probably be better off if they had the Tomcat 21 upgrade, and had acquired the A-6F. F/A-18E tried to do everything, and ends up with a degree of mediocity in it all.

That can be said about a lot of planes, not just the Superhornet. You can be good at a lot of things, or great at one thing. And the Navy didn't kill the Tomcat, the SECDEF at the time did. I don't think however a new generation 'Cat is the answer either.