• NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.
  • Logbook Pro for Apple iOS version 8.1 is now available on the App Store. Major update including signature endorsements and dark/light theme support. Click here to install now.

US Congress tries to block Flag-of-Convenience model for Norwegian Longhaul

sstearns2

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
596
Total Time
9000
If you outsource half your domestic flying and go the better part of 10-15 years without hiring bc you have all the new flying away- some pilots will have to make it a career bill.

Look in the mirror a little.

But if you're an RJ pilot- very few will benefit if you try and make it a career.
You'll be starting over at some point- put your stuff out

The big question of those of us at the regionals and looking to move to a major is scope. Will mainline continue to relax scope? I think YES is the clear answer. Mainline will offer their pilots a 10% raise and 2/3rds will vote to transfer another chunk of good mainline jobs down to the contract carriers. This will happen over and over again and 20 years from now mainline will just mean overseas, wide body, international. Just look at the trend for the last 20 years and project it forward.

30 years ago everyone would have thought it was crazy to think that a regional would fly jets. 20 years ago everyone would have thought it was crazy to think that a regional would be flying 70 seat jets on 1000 NM legs. 10 years ago everyone would have thought it was crazy to think that a regional would be flying an 85,000 lb airplane 1000 NM into Mexico. Today is sounds crazy that a regional would be flying a 110 seat airplane hub to hub.

The E-175s are arriving in mass at the regionals. Why would companies buy all these E-175s when they already operate CRJs of the same capacity? The only answer in my mind if that the plan is for the contract carriers to start flying E-190/195s and for mainline to continue to farm out their domestic/Canada/Mexico/Bahamas/Caribbean and beyond flying.

Scott
 

waveflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Posts
10,005
Total Time
12000
I hope you are wrong....yet...^^^^


Bill- you're part of the biggest offender- refute that^^
 

sstearns2

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
596
Total Time
9000
I hope you are wrong....yet...^^^^


^^

I hope I am wrong too. Management has created a system that, by the forces of human nature, will naturally move all of the pilots flying their passengers (and FA's, mechanics, ramp workers, gate agents, etc) from A scale, to B scale, to C scale over the long term. It is working just as intended and I see no reason to think it will not continue.

Scott
 

BILL LUMBERG

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Posts
2,074
Total Time
9 to 5
If you outsource half your domestic flying and go the better part of 10-15 years without hiring bc you have all the new flying away- some pilots will have to make it a career bill.

Look in the mirror a little.

But if you're an RJ pilot- very few will benefit if you try and make it a career.
You'll be starting over at some point- put your stuff out

Wavey,

I was the highest paid pilot in the industry 10 years ago.....we can't live in the past.

We are changing the tides in the other direction, whether you believe it or not, the RJ flying is decreasing and mainline flying is going up and we are hiring as fast as we can train them.

Again....past is past....ad nauseum repeating what is done and over with and currently getting fixed is not worth the ones and zeros your keyboard is puttin out. Life is gettin better for all of us....supply and demand will force the change.
 

BILL LUMBERG

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Posts
2,074
Total Time
9 to 5
Thanks Bill, for being civil. Believe me most of us have our stuff out there. Have a good one!

You bet.....

Trust me man, somebody will call soon. My airline is panicking publicly (Endeavour pilot screening and hiring plan) and will need lots of people practically yesterday.

Even though I work with a putz :) , I hope you got it in over here.
 
Last edited:

BILL LUMBERG

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Posts
2,074
Total Time
9 to 5
I hope you are wrong....yet...^^^^


Bill- you're part of the biggest offender- refute that^^

I think the lessons learned over the "lost decade" will change behaviors. Why? Not enough pilots.....hell, they can't fill RJ classes even with the crappy pay and work rules now...what would a 110 seat jet do for a regional if they still paid crappy? We do not have a glut of pilots ready to stab around to undercut each other.

The mainline airlines are learning too, they can control the product if they wear the home teams badges. I must admit, I have been on a few contract carriers planes lately and the professionalism and image the crews and planes put out, is impressive. Most of the time it's a better than the Jurassic jets I fly with the cave women we have working in back.
 

waveflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Posts
10,005
Total Time
12000
Very true
Scott, your turn-

We were willing to stay at the Wisconsins and republics of the world bc we were already invested in the career-
Pilots aren't flocking to aviation like they used to for good reason - that drove the past expansion-
Past does not predict future
What say you?
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
The big question of those of us at the regionals and looking to move to a major is scope. Will mainline continue to relax scope? I think YES is the clear answer. Mainline will offer their pilots a 10% raise and 2/3rds will vote to transfer another chunk of good mainline jobs down to the contract carriers. This will happen over and over again and 20 years from now mainline will just mean overseas, wide body, international. Just look at the trend for the last 20 years and project it forward.

30 years ago everyone would have thought it was crazy to think that a regional would fly jets. 20 years ago everyone would have thought it was crazy to think that a regional would be flying 70 seat jets on 1000 NM legs. 10 years ago everyone would have thought it was crazy to think that a regional would be flying an 85,000 lb airplane 1000 NM into Mexico. Today is sounds crazy that a regional would be flying a 110 seat airplane hub to hub.

The E-175s are arriving in mass at the regionals. Why would companies buy all these E-175s when they already operate CRJs of the same capacity? The only answer in my mind if that the plan is for the contract carriers to start flying E-190/195s and for mainline to continue to farm out their domestic/Canada/Mexico/Bahamas/Caribbean and beyond flying.

Scott


Ummmmm no. The seat numbers for RJs haven't increased since BK. Instead, a couple Majors have acquired smaller mainline planes, like 717s(DL ) and A319s (AA), and have started to take back routes that were unfortunately handed over to the Regionals and are now coming back to the Majors. That's a good thing. I don't see Scope clauses (more seats per plane at the Regionals) decreasing at all during "boom times" either, no need to give concessions. The number of E175s and CR9s has increased somewhat, but 50 seaters are dropping like flies, and fewer 76 seaters are trying to cover for the larger number of 50 seaters departing.

The best advice for Regional pilots: fill out apps for the Majors or LCCs. Hopefully you get an interview and get hired into a better job with higher pay and benefits. Good luck.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Last edited:

Freebrd

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2003
Posts
2,665
Total Time
44,000
Even though I work with a putz :)

Yeah, sorry about that! Every Co has them. :)

I hope you got it in over here.

I do.

.

Better times ahead as you state Bill, hopefully for all!
 
Last edited:

waveflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Posts
10,005
Total Time
12000
Thanks to you and tens of thousands of other concerned Americans, NAI's underhanded business scheme to fly into the United States has been slowed down. Now the clock is ticking on the U.S. Department of Transportation to make a decision on NAI’s permit application, and putting pressure on DOT, the White House, and Congress has never been more important and timely.

Congress has recessed for the month of August—dispersing policymakers back to their states and congressional districts to hear directly from their constituents. Therefore, what better time than now to connect with your senators and representative and remind them how crucial it is to Deny NAI!

Tell your members of congress to contact DOT Secretary Foxx and tell him to Deny NAI. Click here to find your representative and click here to find your senators. Call their district offices and tell them to keep up the pressure on DOT to #DenyNAI.

Thank you!
 

BILL LUMBERG

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Posts
2,074
Total Time
9 to 5
Well done Wave....

DOT never has to respond to their full application to fly here. What they do have to respond to is a deadline of August 30 to the application waiver they applied for which basically requested that they go around the full process and get granted a certificate "just because".

It would be a win, but not the full war if they deny this. A full NO to the original application would make this dead in the water but again, no deadline is attached and IMHO they are slow rolling it to make them go away.
 

BILL LUMBERG

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Posts
2,074
Total Time
9 to 5
fvcking A bubba... good deal. Let's hope the lib senate doesn't pull some crap... the way our government is sold out to big business you never know until the end. But a good sign was the unaminous vote... shows good promise. We'll take this as a victory for now.

tailhookah

Pelosi just signed a second letter to DOT this urging them to deny NAI and senate leadership never sends letters to government agencies. Apparently it's rare for leadership to do,that according to Politico.

She may be lib, but she's pushing in our direction.
 

waveflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Posts
10,005
Total Time
12000
Norwegian CEO Declares He Needs No ?Plan B?
Aviation week
Norwegian Air Shuttle CEO Bjorn Kjos is confident that the airline?s newly established Irish subsidiary Norwegian Air International (NAI) will be granted a foreign air carrier permit by the U.S. Transportation Department (DOT) despite the sizeable objections against the application.

Kjos maintains there is ?no need for a Plan B. I?m positive we will receive a foreign air carrier permit from the U.S. authorities in the coming weeks.?

Dublin-based NAI obtained its air operator certificate (AOC) from the Irish Aviation Authority and the air carrier operating license (ACOL) from the Commission for Aviation Regulation on Feb. 14. ?NAI is an established EU carrier and there is no reason why it would not be granted a foreign air carrier permit from the U.S authorities under the EU-U.S. Open Skies agreement. We have the support from the Norwegian, Irish and EU authorities,? Kjos told Aviation Week on the sidelines of the ?Transport: Driving Europe?s Economy? conference organized by the European Commission?s Directorate-General for Mobility and Transport in Brussels last week.

Norwegian?s new long-haul low-cost business model, with an Irish AOC/ACOL and the use of crew contracted via agencies at operating bases outside of Europe, has met with strong opposition from labor and pilots groups in U.S. and Europe. On the European side, the Association of European Airlines (AEA) and the European Cockpit Association have submitted comments protesting the application, while also Lufthansa and SAS filed a joint reply. The latter two airlines, both members of Star Alliance, urge the DOT ?either to deny NAI?s application outright, or defer action on it.?

A senior European Commission official reiterated the executive body would be ?very angry? if the U.S. DOT refuses NAI?s application and vows remedies would be discussed at the Joint Committee?s next meeting in June in Vienna. However, the official admits the DOT has several options, including delaying the decision for an undefined period of time.

This could crimp NAI?s plan to start operating flights from London Gatwick to several U.S. airports from July aboard Boeing 787s.

Norwegian now has four 787s on its Irish AOC?the fourth aircraft arrived last week and is currently in a paint shop in Ireland to affix the prolific designs on the tail fins?and a further three 787s will be delivered in April, May and June.

If the U.S. foreign air carrier permit for NAI does not materialize before the start of the U.S. services from London Gatwick, Norwegian will have to resort to expensive ACMI lease deals for short-term capacity or put the 787s on the Norwegian AOC of its long-haul affiliate Norwegian Long Haul (but this comes with different issues such as restrictions on employing pilots contracted in non-EU/European Economic Area countries).

Norway has acceded to the EU-U.S. Open Skies air services agreement and has the rights to serve EU-U.S routes.

But, notes Kjos, it?s not about traffic rights to the U.S.

?It?s all about building a streamlined network and efficient operations. For cost and efficiency reasons it is better to have all the aircraft on one AOC. As an EU airline it is easier to get traffic rights to countries that have accepted the EU carrier designation principle,? he says. ?Norway is not part of the EU and thus a Norwegian airline is disadvantaged in this sense.?

Under EU law, every EU member state is required to grant equal market access for routes to destinations outside the EU and to any EU carrier with an establishment on its territory.

The benefits of being an EU carrier will become very important from the moment its Boeing 737 MAX aircraft start arriving, Kjos says.

?We envisage operating the MAX on long-haul routes,? he says. ?The range of the MAX offers some very attractive network prospects. We intend to operate them from several European bases to Africa, India and the U.S.?

Norwegian in 2012 ordered 372 aircraft, including 100 Boeing 737 MAX and 100 options, 100 Airbus A320neo and 50 options, and 22 Boeing 737-800s.

The LCC has earmarked Barcelona, Rome and Paris as possible future bases for short and long-haul operations, with Kjos pointing out that Norwegian is ?a leisure carrier.? Also Madrid, where the airline this summer will open its fifth Spanish base with two Boeing 737-800s and launch six medium-haul routes, could evolve to become a long-haul base. Norwegian would prefer Paris Orly Airport over Charles de Gaulle, but Kjos recognizes that slots are difficult to get at Orly. The airline needs a relatively large number of slots since it wants to connect a short/medium-haul network to long-haul routes.
 

maru657

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Posts
509
Total Time
>15000
The regional pilots might actually get better treatment feeding NAI, and face it, they have absolutely no reason to support the wages and benefits of some double breasted college boy.
 

BILL LUMBERG

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Posts
2,074
Total Time
9 to 5
Yeah Maru....

Get educated before you Flamebait.

This effects every US certified pilot. Believe it or not, your job is on the line. Ask a US merchant sailor....if you can find one.
 

SWA Bubba

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Posts
2,300
Total Time
>10000
Yeah Maru....

Get educated before you Flamebait.

This effects every US certified pilot. Believe it or not, your job is on the line. Ask a US merchant sailor....if you can find one.

He is just baiting you, Bill. His job isn't on the line at all. He's not an airline pilot of any sort anymore--he's an old, washed-up used-to-be. And he has a hardon for actual college graduates, so that probably puts Delta at the top of his "screw-with" list, since you have that requirement. Plus, he's already shown his disdain for unionized pilots--he's proudly stated on FI his willingness to cross an airline picket line. So you can pretty much just ignore everything he says.

Bubba
 

maru657

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Posts
509
Total Time
>15000
Got that education during the 80's and it's been a race to the bottom since.
And Bubba you seem to want appreciation for your position. There's thousands of regional pilots out there that just don't feel your pain.
 

Rough67

5 t's
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Posts
248
Total Time
9500
No the now..

http://www.alpa.org/Portals/Alpa/PressRoom/PressReleases/2014/9-2-14_14.76.htm


Release #14.76
September 2, 2014

ALPA Pilots Commend DOT Rejection of NAI Scheme
Safeguards Fair Competition for U.S. Airlines

WASHINGTON??Today?s announcement that the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) has dismissed Norwegian Air International (NAI) a temporary foreign air carrier operating authorization marks significant progress in the drive by the Air Line Pilots Association, Int?l (ALPA) to help ensure a level playing field for U.S. airlines.

?The U.S. Department of Transportation took an important stand for fair competition today by denying Norwegian Air International?s request for temporary authorization to fly to and from the United States,? said Capt. Lee Moak, ALPA?s president.

NAI has applied for both a foreign air carrier permit and an exemption, which a carrier may apply for to cover the time during which its permit application is pending. The DOT announced today that it had denied NAI?s exemption request.

?While today?s decision is extremely significant, the DOT?s work is not yet complete in making certain that NAI is not permitted to exploit international aviation policy and law to gain an unfair economic advantage over U.S. airlines,? Capt. Moak continued. ?The DOT must take the next step and deny NAI?s application for a foreign air carrier permit to serve U.S. markets.?

NAI has established itself as an Irish airline in order to avoid Norway?s employment laws and to be able to ?rent? its pilots through a Singapore employment company. The pilots, who the company says are based in Thailand, work under individual employment contracts that contain compensation and benefits substantially below that of the Norway-based pilots who fly for NAI?s parent company. NAI has applied to the U.S. DOT for a foreign air carrier permit that would allow it to compete directly with U.S. airlines on long-haul international routes.

NAI?s business plan has prompted an outpouring of bipartisan concern from more than 100 members of Congress. In a letter to the U.S. Secretary of Transportation, 40 U.S. Senators expressed concern and more than 100 members of the U.S. House of Representatives have also stated concern or outright opposition to NAI?s plan.

ALPA has been joined by a broad coalition of U.S. and European airlines, labor organizations, and trade associations in adamantly opposing the NAI application. North American and European labor groups have also expressed opposition, including the AFL-CIO Transportation Trades Department, the International Association of Machinists & Aerospace Workers, the Transport Workers Union, the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA, the European Cockpit Association, the International Transport Workers? Federation, and PARAT. The Association for European Airlines stated that serious questions regarding the NAI application needed to be answered.

In addition, the Air Crew Working Group of the Sectoral Dialogue Committee, which is recognized by the European Commission as the joint labor-management body that addresses labor issues in the airline sector in the EU, has submitted comments to the DOT opposing NAI. The former U.S. Ambassador to the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) has also called for its rejection.

?Today?s decision puts the Norwegian Air International scheme on hold, but it doesn?t end the threat it poses to fair competition and U.S. aviation jobs,? said Capt. Moak. ?The DOT must heed the call made from so many in Congress from both sides of the aisle, labor groups on both sides of the Atlantic, and the European Commission?s own labor-management organization and deny NAI?s application for a U.S. foreign air carrier permit.?

Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world?s largest pilot union, representing more than 51,000 pilots at 31 airlines in the United States and Canada. Visit the ALPA website at www.alpa.org or follow us on Twitter @WeAreALPA.
 

BILL LUMBERG

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Posts
2,074
Total Time
9 to 5
Fights not over yet.....We won a battle....Not the war.

This application by NAI was for temporary rights to fly while the full application process played out. Once the DOT kills that, then it's time to spike the football.
 

maru657

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Posts
509
Total Time
>15000
Where was alpa two decades ago when they easily rolled over on scope. That immediately benefitted the select few at the vaunted majors. It is impressive to see moak making impassioned speeches on the hill, and the rest of alpa lobbying like their lives are on the line. Where was alpa on the issue of scope when it came up?
Well, looks like you've broken the code. Except scope was really destroyed in the 60's with ALPA's connivance. You had to figure that since so many pilots had in failing the IQ test convinced themselves they were republicans. This was easy since the majors had grown so large they were able effect public policy. Unfortunately, this left a large pool of pilots with less than desireable career choices. What was amazing was that ALPA, along with some of the posters on this board promise all good jobs if you'll just submit an application. That ain't happening, but they still want regional pilots to support ALPA's efforts to make life better for the chosen few at brand X. I think NAI might be a good job for Regional pilots
 
Top