US Airways MEC’s Position on Freedom Air

[got_jumpseat?]

From http://www.usairwayspilots.org/

Background on Mesa Group’s establishing Freedom Airlines:

Under Jonathan Ornstein’s control, Mesa Air Group operates wholly owned subsidiary carriers, which include Mesa Airlines, Air Midwest, and previously CCAir. The Mesa and Air Midwest pilots work under a single contract and a single pilot seniority list. In other words, Mesa and Air Midwest are a single pilot group.

The pilots of Mesa Airlines and Air Midwest, who work under the same contract, are in federally mediated Section 6 contract negotiations seeking reasonable improvements in their pay, retirement, and working conditions.

Faced with the threat of job terminations on May 15, 2002, and an announced July 1, 2002, shutdown of the carrier’s operation, the pilots of CCAir announced on April 29 that they voted to accept a management-proposed contract to ensure the continued operation of their company.

Although the proposal had been accepted by CCAir local union leaders and members, ALPA’s Constitution and By-laws requires that its president review and approve each collective bargaining agreement before it can become effective.

ALPA President Duane Woerth declined to approve the extremely concessionary proposal, which came in the context of an unbroken campaign of threats and intimidation by CCAir and Mesa Air Group to shut down the carrier if the pilots did not give up their existing agreement. President Woerth refused to approve the proposed agreement because it unjustifiably degraded pilot working conditions and offered no job security for CCAir pilots in return for the concessions. President Woerth also determined that the carrier’s management never demonstrated the need for the requested concessions and failed to show how the concessions would help save the carrier or the pilots’ jobs.

On July 17, ALPA filed suit in the U.S. District Court for the District of Arizona against Mesa Airlines, Mesa Air Group, and Jonathan Ornstein. In the suit, ALPA asked the Court to compel the Mesa defendants to bargain in good faith as outlined by the Railway Labor Act (RLA), and cease all efforts to undermine the organizational rights of Mesa Airlines pilots. It also requested that the Court enjoin the Mesa defendants from operating Freedom Airlines, a non-union start-up carrier, which they have threatened to use to divert work from the Mesa Airlines pilots.

Ornstein carried out his threat, and CCAir was shut down.

In September, ALPA’s Executive Board passed a resolution strengthening its commitment to opposing Mesa Air Group’s formation of Freedom Airlines as an alter-ego carrier. Mesa’s MEC Chairman, Captain Andy Hughes, said, "We believe that Mesa Air Group CEO Jonathan Ornstein will use Freedom Airlines to divert work from the dedicated Mesa pilots and give our jobs to Freedom Airlines pilots, who don’t have the benefits or protections of a union contract."

The formation of Freedom Airlines presents a threat to Mesa, especially as they are trying to negotiate improvements to their collective bargaining agreement.

Forming Freedom Airlines is also particularly onerous when most Mesa Air Group pilots flying for CCAir remain on furlough.

Jonathan Ornstein is transferring Mesa Airlines assets, jobs, and work opportunities to a non-union carrier to the detriment all Mesa Air Group employees, much in the way that Frank Lorenzo did under the umbrella of the Texas Air Corporation.

Freedom Airlines is a non-union airline. Freedom pilots will not have the protections and benefits of union representation or a union contract. Freedom pilots would be at-will employees subject to the whims of management’s decisions. Pilots would not have representation in disciplinary actions and would be subject to unilateral changes in their compensation, benefits, and working conditions.

The status of Freedom Airlines is subject to challenge in litigation brought by ALPA. The Association is alleging that Mesa Air Group’s use of Freedom Airlines to undermine the collective bargaining position of the Mesa pilots is a violation of the Railway Labor Act. In the ongoing lawsuit, ALPA is asking the federal court to enjoin Mesa Air Group from operating Freedom Airlines.

ALPA will also challenge Mesa Air Group’s ability to manage labor relations at Freedom Airlines separately from those of its other carriers. The National Mediation Board has already upheld the Association’s assertion that Mesa Airlines, Air Midwest, and CCAir are, in fact, a single carrier for collective bargaining purposes. If Freedom Airlines does begin operations, ALPA will seek a similar "single-carrier" ruling from the NMB as it applies to Freedom.

The US Airways MEC supports the Mesa MEC and their pilots’ efforts in their negotiations to accept the Jets for Jobs protocol in order to allow for Mesa’s ability to operate small jets under US Airways code, and supports the Mesa pilots and ALPA International’s stance against the formation of Freedom Airlines.

Bottom line:

· Pilots accepting employment with Freedom Airlines while it is being established as an alter ego airline are harming not only Mesa pilots, but the entire piloting profession.

· Pilots accepting employment at Freedom Airlines are, in effect, joining Jonathan Ornstein in his quest to undermine the collective bargaining rights of fellow ALPA pilots at Mesa.

· The US Airways MEC and ALPA International have consistently made statements, and have taken the position, that the establishment of Freedom Airlines as non-union alter ego carrier is contrary to the best interest of Association and our members.

· Pilots accepting employment with Freedom Airlines as an alter ego entity are harming themselves.



LOA 83 --Accelerated Small Jets:

The fact that Freedom Airlines could have been a participant in the Jets for Jobs protocol as a non-union alter ego carrier was unacceptable to the US Airways MEC. The issue was addressed in the recent negotiations with US Airways management on Letter of Agreement 83, Accelerated Small Jets. Section 2A in LOA 83 states:

2. The terms and conditions for placement of the Small Jet code share aircraft that are authorized to be placed at other carriers and flown under the US Airways code by the provisions of Attachments B, B-1, and B-3 of the Restructuring Agreement shall be modified under the terms and conditions stated below:

A. Up to 20 "Medium SJs" and up to 30 "Large SJs" (CRJ-700 aircraft only) may be operated by Mesa Airlines or by any wholly owned subsidiary of Mesa Air Group or Mesa Airlines under terms agreed to between Mesa Air Group and the Association. Such aircraft shall be subject to the Jets for Jobs Protocol and must be placed into revenue operation no later than December 31, 2004.

This language states that ALPA and Mesa Group must agree to terms concerning the placement of small jet aircraft at Mesa Group under US Airways code. It denies unilateral code sharing authority to Mesa Group for Freedom Airlines as a non-union alter ego carrier. Freedom Airlines cannot carry US Airways’ code unless ALPA (Mesa MEC) agrees to terms to allow it.

MEC action:

The Mesa MEC and US Airways MEC have been working very closely to help both furloughed CCAir pilots and furloughed US Airways pilots. Mesa pilots have been seeking solutions with our Negotiating Committee to help our furloughed pilots get jobs opportunities under a Jets for Jobs agreement with Mesa. Likewise, the US Airways MEC has been working with Mesa MEC to help Mesa pilots in their difficult struggle against a hostile management. The goal for both MECs has been to secure jobs and help each other achieve acceptable working conditions for ALPA pilots.

The US Airways MEC is supporting the Mesa pilots’ position that it wants to have Freedom Airlines under the umbrella of ALPA-represented carriers at Mesa.

 

[got_jumpseat?]

U's MEC position on Freedom (PART II)

On December 18, the MEC unanimously passed the following resolution:

WHEREAS Mesa Air Group operates three wholly owned subsidiary carriers, Mesa Airlines, Air Midwest, and CCAir, and

WHEREAS the Mesa and Air Midwest pilots work under a single contract and a single pilot seniority list, and

WHEREAS Mesa Air Group is establishing Freedom Air as a non-union carrier operating 70- and 90-seat jets on a separate operating certificate while the Mesa Airlines pilots are in contract negotiations, seeking much-needed improvements in their compensation, retirement, and working conditions, and

WHEREAS Mesa management has stalled contract negotiations forcing ALPA to file a lawsuit asking the federal court to compel management to bargain in good faith as outlined by the Railway Labor Act, and

WHEREAS Mesa Air Group’s use of Freedom Airlines to undermine the collective bargaining position of the Mesa pilots is a violation of the Railway Labor Act, and

WHEREAS any pilot who accepts employment with Freedom Airlines is harming not only Mesa Air Group pilots, but also the entire piloting profession, and

WHEREAS ALPA’s position is that Freedom Airlines is an alter-ego, runaway shop carrier created by Mesa Air Group specifically to undermine the collective bargaining strength, working conditions, and career aspirations of Mesa Airlines, CCAir, and Air Midwest pilots, and

WHEREAS Mesa Air Group is using Freedom Air to intimidate and threaten Mesa Airlines pilots with the transfer of work opportunities as a means of dictating pilot pay and working conditions, and

WHEREAS both the Executive Council and the Executive Board of the Air Line Pilots Association, International, have passed resolutions opposing Mesa Air Group’s formation of Freedom Air as an alter-ego carrier, pledging to use all appropriate means, including financial, legal, communications, and other resources, to prevent Mesa Air Group from establishing Freedom Air as an alter-ego carrier, and

WHEREAS some furloughed US Airways pilots have accepted employment with Freedom Air, thus engaging in actions detrimental to the Association, and

WHEREAS the US Airways MEC has obtained significant benefits for our furloughed pilots including access to the jumpseat, health insurance paid by an assessment of the pilot group, access to the US Airways website, access to the US Airways furlough administrator, and access to ALPA provided job search programs such as Airinc and others,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the US Airways MEC directs its officers and Negotiating Committee to inform US Airways management that the US Airways MEC, especially in light of its significant financial contribution to the survival of US Airways, objects to any potential or contemplated code sharing arrangement with Freedom Air unless the entity is represented by ALPA, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the US Airways MEC supports the actions of the Executive Council and Executive Board in opposing the formation of Freedom Air as a non-union entity, and directs that all furloughed US Airways pilots be notified of the Executive Board, Executive Council and MEC’s opposition to Freedom Air via the most expeditious and cost effective means, such as email, code-a-phone or regular mailing, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that any pilot on the US Airways seniority list that accepts employment with Freedom Air will lose all US Airways MEC sponsored ALPA privileges including but not limited to jumpseat, health insurance, web access, furlough administrator access, and ALPA provided job search programs, and

BE IT FINALLY RESOLVED that, if applicable, the US Airways MEC will file Article VIII charges against any US Airways seniority list pilot accepting or remaining in employment with Freedom Air after February 1, 2003 for engaging in action detrimental to the Association.

The MEC’s statements opposing the establishment of Freedom Airlines as an alter ego carrier have been clear and consistent ever since it learned (October 2002) that US Airways management was entering into a commercial code share agreement with Mesa Group.

Accordingly, the AAA message board may not be used to misrepresent MEC positions and promote furloughed pilots accepting employment at Freedom Airlines while it is being operated as a non-union alter ego carrier to the detriment of fellow ALPA pilots, both furloughed and active.

AAA message board participation must be conducted in a manner that is in compliance with ALPA Intranet Policy and consistent with being an ALPA member in good standing.

Your MEC representatives hope this information clarifies the issues concerning Freedom Airlines, as well as the very important ongoing efforts to obtain acceptable Jets for Jobs vacancies for US Airways furloughed pilots at Mesa Group.

Thank you for your understanding and support during these difficult times.

 

[tarp]

From ACA's Chief Pilot's message:

"ACA received an official request from Freedom Airlines to incorporate a reciprocal jumpseat agreement. That request has been denied."

 

[got_jumpseat?]

God bless that man. I think the handwriting is lit up with floodlights on the wall for the greedom pilots.

From ACA's Chief Pilot's message:

"ACA received an official request from Freedom Airlines to incorporate a reciprocal jumpseat agreement. That request has been denied."

 

[surplus1]

Now that Freedom's pilots have "unanimously accepted" (about as farsical as the "unanimous" election of Sadam Hussein) the ALPA/UMEC Jets for Jobs protocol, we'll have a chance to see how many more furloughed U pilots accept the Freedom jobs.

As the non-union Republic Airways alter ego created by Chautauqua management to bypass the "NO" vote of CHQ pilots (re J4J) comes on line, we will also see how many of the furloughed U pilots accept the 100% of jobs offered over there which, by the way, ALPA and the UMEC both appear to support.

It is amazing to watch how you appear to be totally unaware of the hypocrisy in the statements of the ALPA and the UMEC with respect to this issue. When are you going to acknowledge the reality that Freedom and Republic are both the creation of the ALPA/UMEC just as is the Jets for Jobs mess?

The Fox is in your hen house and already eating the chickens, i.e., YOU. In spite of that you still believe the BS eminating from the UMEC? Little wonder you get screwed all the time. You've apparently swallowed the rhetoric of the predators hook, line and sinker. Now you're singing the praises of the fishermen as they reel you in. Incredible.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[got_jumpseat?]

Those are some serious accusations. Do you have one shred of evidence for your theories? If true, you need to blow the whistle a little louder. Lets see some evidence. I am willing to wait and see what happens in January 6-10 after MESA visits the NMB in DC. I told you before J4J is the brainchild of Andy Hughes. I asked him myself a few weeks ago and he confirmed. It was actually a YV CLT pilot's idea and Andy Hughes got it on the table.

Now that Freedom's pilots have "unanimously accepted" (about as farsical as the "unanimous" election of Sadam Hussein) the ALPA/UMEC Jets for Jobs protocol, we'll have a chance to see how many more furloughed U pilots accept the Freedom jobs.

As the non-union Republic Airways alter ego created by Chautauqua management to bypass the "NO" vote of CHQ pilots (re J4J) comes on line, we will also see how many of the furloughed U pilots accept the 100% of jobs offered over there which, by the way, ALPA and the UMEC both appear to support.

It is amazing to watch how you appear to be totally unaware of the hypocrisy in the statements of the ALPA and the UMEC with respect to this issue. When are you going to acknowledge the reality that Freedom and Republic are both the creation of the ALPA/UMEC just as is the Jets for Jobs mess?

The Fox is in your hen house and already eating the chickens, i.e., YOU. In spite of that you still believe the BS eminating from the UMEC? Little wonder you get screwed all the time. You've apparently swallowed the rhetoric of the predators hook, line and sinker. Now you're singing the praises of the fishermen as they reel you in. Incredible.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Got Jumpseat,
This is copied off another thread - what do you think of this? I agree with you that J4Js is a creation of the Mesa pilots. I would not brag about that however. What do you think of this new alter-ego carrier at Chautaqua? Is it not the same as Freedom?

InclusiveScope

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Chautauqua] Company Update for December 20, 2002:

"...Our Holding Company has also reached a tentative agreement with US Airways to operate up to another 23 regional jets; also assuming numerous conditions are met, including approval by the ALPA association at US Airways. Since Chautauqua cannot comply with the Jets for Jobs requirements, additional furloughed pilots from Airways would be covered under the other regional jet service agreement between the Holding Company and US Airways...."

U- ALPA code-a-phone:

"Item 2. The Company has informed ALPA that Republic Airlines, which will start operations in July 2003, will be a Participating Affiliate Carrier in the Jets for Jobs protocol. Beginning in July the carrier is expecting to receive two aircraft per month, with 100 percent of the vacancies being made available to US Airways pilots up to the first nine aircraft. We will provide more information on these vacancies once it becomes available."

Wexford Holdings owns the operating certificates for both Republic and Chautauqua. Republic Airlines will be an alter-ego started by Wexford specifically to get around the CHQ pilots' refusal to ratify j4j. I sincerely hope that U-ALPA recognizes this for what it is.


__________________

 

[surplus1]

Those are some serious accusations. Do you have one shred of evidence for your theories? If true, you need to blow the whistle a little louder. Lets see some evidence. I am willing to wait and see what happens in January 6-10 after MESA visits the NMB in DC. I told you before J4J is the brainchild of Andy Hughes. I asked him myself a few weeks ago and he confirmed. It was actually a YV CLT pilot's idea and Andy Hughes got it on the table.

What part of what I said do you consider to be a "serious accusation"? Is it the part about the hypocrisy of the ALPA/UMEC statements or the part about the new Republic? If it is either of those both are self evident. Read again the info posted by Inclusive Scope. That's the evidence about Republic. A nonunion alter ego at Chautauqua is no different from a nonunion alter ego at Mesa Air Group. Any alter ego, union or nonunion, is injurious to the interests of the original pilot group. If you need "evidence" of that I can only express regret.

If, as you say, Andy Hughes is the architect of Jets for Jobs, then that's evidence enough that you are indeed swallowing the BS hook line and sinker or worse, you created it. If Hughes wants that then he has surely lost his marbles. I expect that from a lot of people in ALPA but he wasn't one of them. According to you, I was obviously wrong. If that's true, then he has done you and every other regional pilot an immesurable disservice. Feel free to tell him I said so.

A protocol that coerces union pilots to abrogate their seniority and other provisions of their contracts to give all or any portion of their jobs to pilots from another airline is absurd in the extreme. A union that supports such and effort abrogates its Duty of Fair Representation to those pilots upon whom this is being forced.

That is my opinion and I don't care who doesn't like it.

I wish you luck with the NMB. God knows you need it.

 

[jetdriven]

i dont know if alpa can condemn republic as the CHQ pilots are teamsters.

 

[100-1/2]

CHQ Contract?

I understand recently from and FO friend at CHQ that they have been unsuccessful at negotiating contract for some time now and are looking to a mediator in Jan 2003. As stated here and elsewhere, CHQ is represented by teamsters and ALPA can neither endorse nor condemn CHQ j4j actions. It would stand to reason by judicial response in AZ, a precedence has been set that would not prevent the CHQ and USAir deal in 2003 regardless of union representation. Therefore, one could reason CHQ pilots already flying USAX Rjs stand to lose collective bargaining strength and face unfavorable conceliatory agreements on top of an already dismal pay scale going into this mediation.

Maybe, someone intimate with the CHQ situation can shed some light on this or give us the pulse of the workforce over there.

Just when it looked like the dust was going to settle down a little, management sticks a fork in the toaster. I love the president 'G.dubya' but signing that executive authority bill on work stoppage in critical industry, he really gave slight-handed management all of the bargaining power.

100-1/2

 

[got_jumpseat?]

What U WO do you work for? I never got to fly out east for YV but from what I have been told by my buddies I am thinking you have got to be an ALG or Piedmont pilot. When Mesa is assigned flying or wins flying through contract by being the lowest possible bidder that may be slightly embarrasing but sleeping at night is not a problem. The flying was won by a fair shake, nothing more.
That being said...

I am not questioning that Chautauqua is starting republic. Only your conclusion that this proves a UMEC/ALPA conspiracy to abrogate Mesa or any other airlines seniority lists. I have listened to your opinion and let you make your case for how this is true but I must disagree.

I have patience if nothing else and I am willing to wait out this battle and have given my MEC my support to win the freedom flying back to Mesa. I am for the most part 100% convinced there will be no J4J deal at Mesa or freedom until we get our scope. Now I don't mean to sound insensitive or cruel but that's all I really want out of this deal. SCOPE. If your flying is cut back or disappears via a fair deal you can't go around calling Mesa pilots scabs. You lost the flying fair and square. Mesa has lost so much flying since I have been here and you dont see us calling Lakes and Whiskey or Sky West pilots or even Big Sky or Rio Grande pilots scabs. They won the flying, they can have it. If that happens again to you then suck it up and have your CEO go hit up somebody else for a codeshare. I can only imagine if YV never lost the DEN flying in 1997 how big we would be today.

As far as I am concerned freedom pilots ARE scabs right now!! Maybe not legally but in my eyes YES, especially the ones junior to me and new hires. They are taking my flying. I saw PHX just go from almost 90 hard lines to less than 70 since freedom started. Next bids will be out in a couple days and I am frightened to see what its down to now. Once they have my flying they will go after your flying and there is a difference from winning it fairly and taking it by force or abrogation or whatever you want to call it. Freedom or republic what's the difference? I think we agree about that.

Lastly if I am wrong and freedom (and maybe republic) get away with airway robbery then you can rant and rave about abrogated seniority and ALPA conspiracies all you want at that point I have a feeling I may depart peranently from the US aviation industry at that point and find some S. Pacific Island nation to fly boxes and tourists in a 30,000 cycle ex-mesa Beech 1900 or even an old piston and forget about all this BS. But I think you're wrong. If you're right ALPA would lose all credibility and probably be sued into non-existence. I just dont see that happening.

What part of what I said do you consider to be a "serious accusation"? Is it the part about the hypocrisy of the ALPA/UMEC statements or the part about the new Republic? If it is either of those both are self evident. Read again the info posted by Inclusive Scope. That's the evidence about Republic. A nonunion alter ego at Chautauqua is no different from a nonunion alter ego at Mesa Air Group. Any alter ego, union or nonunion, is injurious to the interests of the original pilot group. If you need "evidence" of that I can only express regret.

If, as you say, Andy Hughes is the architect of Jets for Jobs, then that's evidence enough that you are indeed swallowing the BS hook line and sinker or worse, you created it. If Hughes wants that then he has surely lost his marbles. I expect that from a lot of people in ALPA but he wasn't one of them. According to you, I was obviously wrong. If that's true, then he has done you and every other regional pilot an immesurable disservice. Feel free to tell him I said so.

A protocol that coerces union pilots to abrogate their seniority and other provisions of their contracts to give all or any portion of their jobs to pilots from another airline is absurd in the extreme. A union that supports such and effort abrogates its Duty of Fair Representation to those pilots upon whom this is being forced.

That is my opinion and I don't care who doesn't like it.

I wish you luck with the NMB. God knows you need it.

Thanks for your support??? I really dont want to hear the words "we have been released to strike" but staying and waiting for the inevitable does not seem any more attractive. I saw that movie already and didn't like the ending much.

Next rounds... January 6th through 11th in DC. If it isnt on CNN headline news I hope to post the good news here then. SEEYA!

 

[becket]

Some of you need a little reminder about the Furloughed US Airways pilots. These are the pilots who have lost their jobs only to be directly replaced by Mesa, Chautauqua, et. al. Why do you guys have this attitude that the furloughed airways guys can now just go get bent while all of those jobs go to pilots fresh from flight instructing? Why do you think these hard working very experienced long time ALPA pilots should just get it up the *** and get nothing from it? Why do you Mesa guys feel so f-ing entitled to everything?

Whatever arangments are made with this j4j thing, the only thing that matters is that the furloughed US Airways pilots are taken care of first, and best. This is US Air flying. Protected with US Airways mainline scope and dues. All of this mud slinging about freedom from Mesa guys makes me sick. It is nothing more than the pot calling the kettle black. You ream Freedom pilots but have no problem whatever grabbing all of the old US Air mainline flying all the while holding your finger up to the furloughed mainline pilot. You guys are no different than Freedom. If you think ALPA is greedy and everybody is out to get you, look in the mirror. The same can be said for your pilot group.

 

[DoinTime]

Some of you need a little reminder about the Furloughed US Airways pilots. These are the pilots who have lost their jobs only to be directly replaced by Mesa, Chautauqua, et. al. Why do you guys have this attitude that the furloughed airways guys can now just go get bent while all of those jobs go to pilots fresh from flight instructing? Why do you think these hard working very experienced long time ALPA pilots should just get it up the *** and get nothing from it? Why do you Mesa guys feel so f-ing entitled to everything?

The reason so many USAir guys are on furlough is because USAir has been incapable of running a profitable airline for over a decade. If it were not for your regional support system you guys would have been chapter 7 long ago. USAir regionals are flying work that was contracted to them by YOUR management. If you thought that this was such a bad deal why didn't you put a stop to it years ago? I'll tell you why. You are to proud to be seen in regional equipment, you refuse to work under the conditions that are required to make regional aircraft profitable, and you bargained away scope protection in return for the preservation of the salaries and work rules for your senior pilots. I'm all for bringing furloughed pilots in and giving them work as we do with the NW mainline guys but they get put at the bottom of the list and treated as new hires for that is what they are within my company.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

NW mainline pilots are getting jobs at NW Airlink?

Didn't know that.

I knew that some furloughed AA pilots went to AE and some CO pilots went to COEx.

I wish that UA could help the furloughed pilots at United to find jobs with their express carriers.

I'd be grateful to be in the right seat of a Brasilia or similar.

Cheers!

GP

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Guppy,
Skywest, is hiring an us on the line would welcome you, and your experience.
PM me and I will give you any and all the insight/help /I can offer.
PBR

"never get outta the boat"-chef

 

[surplus1]

Some of you need a little reminder about the Furloughed US Airways pilots.

That's probably true. By the same token (based on your post), some US Airways pilots apparently need a few reminders themselves. You seem to be one of them.

These are the pilots who have lost their jobs only to be directly replaced by Mesa, Chautauqua, et. al.

Looks like it hasn't occured to you that any "replacement" of U pilots that may be occuring, whether by the carriers you named or any other, is a direct result of the actions taken by ALPA and your own UMEC. What you sew is what you reap.

Why do you guys have this attitude that the furloughed airways guys can now just go get bent while all of those jobs go to pilots fresh from flight instructing?

I don't know who "you guys" is in your context (but I can sure make a good guess) and I hate to answer a question with a question. However, why have you guys thought, for well over a decade, that the ALG/PDT/PSA pilots should "just get bent" while all of the RJ jobs went to subcontractors that "you guys" allowed to exist (and are now creating more of), while "you guys" hired fresh off the streets and ignored the WO subsidiaries? Why do "you guys" think that a 15-year captain at ALG or PDT is somehow less valuable than a 15-year captain at USAirways?

Why do you think these hard working very experienced long time ALPA pilots should just get it up the *** and get nothing from it? Why do you Mesa guys feel so f-ing entitled to everything?

Again, why do you think that the hard working very experienced long time ALPA pilots at ALG and PDT should just get it up the *** and get nothing from it (except being put out of business as a result of your MEC's and ALPA's action/inaction?

I can't speak for Mesa guys, because I'm a Comair guy but once more, I have to ask you the very same question. Why do you USAirways guys feel so f-ing entitled to everything? What makes you think that your 15 years of service is more important than my 15-years of service? What makes you think that your long term membership in the ALPA entitles you to more representation of your interests than my long term membership entitles me to receive?

Why do you have a "holier than thou" attitude because you're employed by USAirways and I am only employed by some commuter? When are you going to realize that what you are getting today (in terms of negative reaction from other pilots) is the by-product of your own unsavory behavior in the past? When are you going to own up and take responsibility for your own past actions? Why do you think that you are f-ing entitled to favorable treatment from "us" today, when you have handed out nothing but scorn and unfavorable treatment to "us" for more than a decade?

Whatever arangments are made with this j4j thing, the only thing that matters is that the furloughed US Airways pilots are taken care of first, and best.

There's that attitude again. YOU (USAirways pilots) must be taken care of "first and best" and whomever you screw in the process is A-OK with you. Well buddy, that idea is exactly why you have a problem. As soon as you start stepping on other peoples seniority, you're going to get kicked in the shins. Your attitude has always been that you don't want us on your list, even at the bottom and you don't want us flowing to your list either. Well you got what you wanted, now live with the consequences.

Now that it has not worked out the way you expected, you are demanding that we place you on our list, with super seniority and higher pay for the same job? Well my friend I'm real sorry there are furloughs at your airline but, as far as I'm concerned, you can take J4J and shove it where the sun don't shine!

Maybe you can force a few people to accept it. Maybe you can coerce others into doing it and maybe you can fool still others that are naive enough to buy your BS. Luckily there are some of us that are not quite as stupid as you seem to think.

The real sad part is the simple fact that you could have had free access to ALL of the new jobs IF your MEC and "our" union had gone about this in the right way. What's more, it could have happened with zero resentment and full support. But no, YOU are like you said .... f-ing entitled to first and best. Let me tell you again what you can do with that idea ..... shove it!

This is US Air flying. Protected with US Airways mainline scope and dues.

Looks like you still haven't figured it out but your predatory Scope obviously wasn't worth the paper it was written on now that the chips are down. It's history. Maybe if your dues and my dues had been used to represent all of us, instead of to discriminate against me and favor you, you would not be in this pickle.

It is nothing more than the pot calling the kettle black.

Well, you got that part right, but you still haven't figured out that the same applies to you. Are you the pot or the kettle?

You ......... have no problem whatever grabbing all of the old US Air mainline flying all the while holding your finger up to the furloughed mainline pilot.

Not pretty, eh? Well think about what it's like when you try to impose yourself on us, with super seniority and higher pay, when you and your kind have been flipping the bird to all regional pilots for years. If you now get a finger or two in return, perhaps it's high time. Don't want the bird? Then why have you been handing it out for so long? Maybe what goes around really does come around. Ever think of that?

Maybe we have come to see you as the same red-headed step child that you have called us for so long. "Cast your bread upon the waters" and it will come back to you. Looks like it might be your turn to get some of what you gave in kind.

I don't blame this on the USAirways line pilot. Most have simply been disinterested in what your leaders and the ALPA have been doing. However, the leadership of the International Union and of your MEC are undoubtedly responsible for creating the animosity that is now manifested and it is not just at USAirways, it's industry wide and growing. As soon as they can bring themselves to that realization we can take the first step in the rest of our lives and begin the process of reconciliation. Until they do, it will get far worse before it gets better.

You all need an attitude adjustment. Funny thing about mirrors, when you look in one you do see a reflection of yourself. You should try it. I think you live in a glass house with a lot more mirrors than found in our little glass shack. Large or small, glass houses don't fare well in stone throwing contests. "Let him that is whitout sin cast the first stone." You seem to think you are the pure one. As you may have guessed, I don't.

Here's hoping we'll all have a better New Year and both of us can stop throwing rocks at each other.

 

[surplus1]

What U WO do you work for? I never got to fly out east for YV but from what I have been told by my buddies I am thinking you have got to be an ALG or Piedmont pilot.

Nope. I'm not a U WO pilot and my airline has never had anything to do with USAir Group. I'm a Comair puke.

I'm not against Mesa or anyone at Mesa. Matter of fact, I'm not "against" any airline pilot. What I am against is the behavior of the ALPA in all of these scenarios. I'm against J4J and I'm against the APA effort to take Eagle pilots jobs while masquerading under the "one list" banner.

I'm also against alter egos, but that means I'm against ALL of them, not just Freedom. I'm against policies at my labor union that operate to encourage the creation of alter ego airlines and I am also against policies that help to support some of them, while opposing others. I think ALPA's policies have done that and I want those policies to change.

I think that ALPA's policies on Scope have been wrong and I also think that if those policies had been different, many of the pilots that are furloughed today would never have been furloughed at all, even in the current circumstances.

I don't wish furloughs on anyone and I would like to see all furloughed pilots either recalled or employed at other airlines. I think it is absurd in the extreme that one airline is furloughing and another hiring (but not the furloughed pilots) while both are owned by the same Company and, but for flawed ALPA policy, are really one airline.

I think J4J does NOT hasten the employment of furloughed U pilots, but operates to do the exact opposite. I think that sucks. Had ALPA done the right thing, I believe most of those pilots would either be flying now or in the near term, without any infighting or animosity. Their new jobs would not be as good as their old jobs but they would surely be better than NO job.

I'm not against Scope. It's a good thing and a necessary thing but it's purpose is not to transfer work or to take from others or to divide pilots in the same Company and pit them against each other. If you give away part of your work (which they all did) you can't expect, years later, to take it back and just dump on the pilots that are doing it, by changing your scope. Not without creating the kind of wars that are happening and brewing now.

I am not questioning that Chautauqua is starting republic. Only your conclusion that this proves a UMEC/ALPA conspiracy to abrogate Mesa or any other airlines seniority lists. I must disagree.

OK, I don't mind if you disagree. I only ask that you agree or disagree with what I actually say and not some different idea of what I may have meant.

I didn't say there was an ALPA/UMEC conspiracy. There is no conspiracy, what's there is direct and overt action. Jets for Jobs, requires any accepting pilot group to abrogate its seniority to USAirways pilots and to abrogate its contract by allowing them to be paid more money for doing the same job. In my opinion, that is far worse than a conspiracy, it is an overt act against the pilots of the small airline, most of whom are members of the same union and I believe it is wrong.

I do NOT object to the U pilots being hired. I think they should be hired in preference to anyone else and in every vacancy created by new subcontracted flying for USAirGroup. I do NOT think they should have created Mid Atlantic (an alter ego) or excluded the WO pilots (which they did) and I do NOT think they should get super seniority or higher pay. That is why everyone that could has voted it down so far. ALG/PDT/PSA were coerced into accepting. I think those guys got screwed, not by Mesa, but by ALPA and the UMEC. That they are not suing the ALPA is only a miracle.

I blame ALPA because ALPA is the bargaining agent. If the ALPA president can refuse to sign a bad deal at CCAir, he can also refuse to sign a bad deal at USAirways. Jets for Jobs is a bad deal and should not exist in its present form. It reflects bargaining in bad faith and blatant discrimination. IMO, it violates ALPA's Duty of Fair Representation.

You should know that I don't call Mesa pilots anything except "brother". I want you to get a good contract. If you continue to get inferior contracts, by a wide margin, that only puts pressure on my contract to grant concessions. I don't want that. I don't want to see you flying those 50, 70 and 90-seat jets for less money than I am paid to do the same thing. Ultimately, that will only force us to make concessions. Call it self-interest if you like, but it does not come at your expense.

You aren't going to get a "mainline contract". Keep in mind that most "mainline contracts" are currently falling by the wayside. However, you can and should get a reasonable contract. One like AWA,CMR, ASA, ACA, is well within the ability of your Company to provide, while remaining profitable.

I fully realize that your Company is the "lowest bidder", not the Mesa Pilots. That can only happen because your contract is inferior. I don't mind competing with you on a level playing field, but I don't want to have to compete while you are being taken advantage of. That will only cause me to be taken advantage of too. When it comes to what you can negotiate, we are on the same side.

I hope that the NMB will grant your single carrier petition with Freedom and think that is the way to go. I don't see blackballing Freedom pilots as the answer and think that is a mistake.

I also think that a jumpseat war is a very BIG mistake. The jumpseat should NEVER be used as a political tool of any kind. The end result of that could be that we ALL lose the jumpseat. Trying to make the jumpseat a political football will ultimately bite us all in the arse.

The union should oppose Freedom, but it should also oppose every other alter ego airline. Belonging to the union does not make an alter ego a "good thing". Fighting alter egos is a lot more important, in my mind, that toting pistols in the cockpit. The union's priorities often appear to be misplaced. Why is that? Maybe it's because the union's policies are dictated by the major airline pilots who are not concerned by what happens to the regional pilots, until it affects them. By the time it does (and it will if this continues) it may well be too late to stop the alter ego trend.

ALPA has had a policy against alter egos for a long time. In 1998, the major airlines chose to weaken that policy which I think was a mistake. Today, the union is trying to selectively object to or condone "different" alter egos based on their union affiliation or lack thereof. That is double speak and nothing more than a policy that caters to the "convenience" of certain major airlines. That is bad policy and bad politics.

Your resentment of Freedom is, I think, justified. It is extremely dangerous to your future. However, your war is with management and your union, not with Freedom pilots. That's where you and I disagree. It is true the pilots didn't have to work there, but they did not create the alter ego. The union's absurd Scope policy at USAir Group did. The jets for jobs policy is creating Republic (at CHQ) and has already created Mid Atlantic. You have to call a spade a spade.

I also agree that JO is using Freedom against you and you have to fight that. Nevertheless, there would have been no need for Freedom if the USAirways Scope clause did not attempt to prevent MSAG from conducting buisness with other airlines. Like it or not, Freedom is little more than the product of ALPA's effort to prevent the use of the RJ-70/90 at regional carriers. Just as it is ALPA's policy to restrict the deployment of RJ's of all sizes, everywhere.

Exclusive Scope doesn't work. Especially within the same airline system. Calling an alter ego a subcontractor is a farse and attempting to scope it out, after the fact, is ludicrous. As long as you have one Company operating several airlines with separate pilot groups, conventional Scope is doomed.

Either you allow no subcontracting at all, or you find a different way to accomodate the subcontracting that you have already allowed. Once you open the barn door, you cannot close it in contradiction of market forces. It hasn't worked and it will not work. Either we change the way we fight the battle or we (ALPA) will lose the war.

If you're right ALPA would lose all credibility and probably be sued into non-existence.

Sadly, ALPA may have already lost much of its credibility with respect to these issues and, if it continues on this course, will lose much more. A union for "all airline pilots" cannot survive on a platform that labels 15,000 of those pilots as inferior and treats them as second-class members.

Thanks for your support??? I really dont want to hear the words "we have been released to strike" but staying and waiting for the inevitable does not seem any more attractive. I saw that movie already and didn't like the ending much.

The strike decision will have to be yours. However, I advise much caution. The climate today is quite different from what it was only 2 years ago. About all I can say is that strikes are seldom very productive. Like you, I have seen that movie and I didn't like the ending either. A former president of ALPA once told me, "Never point a loaded gun at the head of another man unless you are prepared to pull the trigger" (and live with the consequences). I think he gave good advice.

Again, I wish you succes in your very difficult negotiations. I hope the New Year will be better for all of us.

 

[racerX]

I am one of those people who can't understand why anyone would think that what Freedom and Republic are doing OK. It is wrong. But rather than arguing on the web, does anyone know which of our elected representatives would be best to contact regarding all of this?

 

[got_jumpseat?]

Your resentment of Freedom is, I think, justified. It is extremely dangerous to your future. However, your war is with management and your union, not with Freedom pilots. That's where you and I disagree. It is true the pilots didn't have to work there, but they did not create the alter ego. The union's absurd Scope policy at USAir Group did. The jets for jobs policy is creating Republic (at CHQ) and has already created Mid Atlantic. You have to call a spade a spade.

I also agree that JO is using Freedom against you and you have to fight that. Nevertheless, there would have been no need for Freedom if the USAirways Scope clause did not attempt to prevent MSAG from conducting buisness with other airlines. Like it or not, Freedom is little more than the product of ALPA's effort to prevent the use of the RJ-70/90 at regional carriers. Just as it is ALPA's policy to restrict the deployment of RJ's of all sizes, everywhere.

A former president of ALPA once told me, "Never point a loaded gun at the head of another man unless you are prepared to pull the trigger" (and live with the consequences). I think he gave good advice.

Again, I wish you succes in your very difficult negotiations. I hope the New Year will be better for all of us.

Our MEC has never been against the creation of new certificates, only againt their being staffed with non-mesa pilots. The fact of the matter being Freedom could have been started and operated by Mesa pilots from the first flight.

Very good advice about loaded weapons. I own a firearm and have never pointed it at another person. If you are not willing to actually go the distance and pull the trigger, your opponent will sense that and simply take the loaded weapon from your hand, and most likely shoot you with the same weapon.

I don't think I will ever go to Freedom, even after we capture the flying, if we do. Up until two weeks ago I was very positive we would secure the freedom flying. But the last round of negotiations that started recent rumors went bad, and to be honest I think their validity and urgency (of the rumors) have been toned down a bit for the pilot group at large. I am not so sure our MEC will win this fight. I have a bad feeling we will be on strike by February and I hope I am wrong. If we have to strike I think that will be the end of Mesa. I think Orenstien will give all strike status pilots a week to decide if they want to accept employment at freedom or say sayonara.

My gut feeling is he has been giving us hope, like the "frog in a teakettle" and when he feels his time has run out and he is more adequately staffed at Freedom he will play his wild card and let us strike. He has never intended to play fair with us. Our MEC officials been played like suckers. Now I hope I am wrong and will gladly write an apology to all involved if we get our contract.

 

[InclusiveScope]

RJ Defense Coalition
Ensuring One Level of Representation
www.rjdefense.com
reply to: [email protected]

Update

January 1, 2003

Comair MEC Takes Position on Preferential Hiring and Delta Mainline Scope

At a December 3rd meeting requested by the Delta MEC to discuss preferential hiring of furloughed Delta pilots, the Comair MEC told the Delta pilot leadership that hiring pilots with dual employment rights raises "numerous substantive concerns." Alternatively, the Comair MEC suggested that the Delta MEC either relax scope restrictions that limit Comair growth, consider negotiating system-wide "brand" scope, or pursue creation of a single pilot group.

Despite the Delta pilot leadership's self denial, the Comair MEC’s position reflects the hard reality that the furlough of more than 1,000 Delta pilots has been caused largely by the Delta MEC’s so-called scope "protections," not the purported lack of them. Thus, there can be no credible solution to the furlough problem without true scope reform. Furthermore, as the RJDC pointed out over a year ago, the "hiring" of Delta employees creates problems that, while not insurmountable, must be addressed in a way that fairly and equitably reflects ALPA's duty to ASA and Comair pilots.

Is the Delta Pilot Leadership Caught in its own Tangled Web?

In response to charges that ALPA's support of the Delta MEC’s predatory agenda creates an inherent conflict of interest, the union has argued that ASA, Comair, and Delta are separate airlines. Notwithstanding the obvious questions about relevance of such arguments, any meaningful arrangements involving ASA and Comair would presumably require that the respective companies be something less than separate. Consequently, any union demand for special employment rights for Delta's furloughed pilots at ASA and Comair tend to undermine ALPA's own legal arguments.

Because ASA and Comair pilots have proven that they are more than capable of mounting a credible legal challenge to the union's actions, the Delta pilot leadership now finds itself choosing between furlough relief and defending its predatory bargaining practices. Unfortunately for the rank and file, ALPA's leadership has again chosen politics over principle by continuing its defense of the indefensible.

Court Date Set

On January 31, 2003 the US District Court will hear oral arguments on ALPA's motion to dismiss Ford v. ALPA and our motion to add 300 additional pilots to the suit. The hearing will be held in the US District Court House in Brooklyn, New York. The arguments will be made in open court and the public is permitted to attend.

Wall Street Journal Article Suggests that More Delta Mainline Negotiations are Inevitable

The Wall Street Journal reported on December 23 that the wave of pay and work rule concessions at Delta's competitors would force the Delta pilot leadership to do likewise if the company is to remain cost-competitive. "Absent a change in pilot economies - either wages or work rules - Delta's ability to lower its costs is severely handicapped," according to an analyst with J.P. Morgan.

If there is another round of concessionary bargaining at Delta, ALPA's leadership will find itself at a crossroads that could determine the fate of the union and the industry. If the Delta pilot leadership seeks to follow the same path chosen by ALPA's other mainline pilot groups and ride roughshod over the rights of ASA and Comair pilots, it will undoubtedly worsen ALPA's legal woes.

On the other hand, the prospect of another round of bargaining could give ALPA the chance to correct past injustices and eliminate the need for further litigation. Whether this will be ALPA's finest hour, or its Waterloo, will be up to ALPA's leadership to decide.

More ALPA Contradictions: US Airways Furloughees Threatened over Freedom Employment, while ALPA Cuts Deal that Actually Requires Freedom to Hire its Pilots

Caught between economic reality and political rhetoric, ALPA continues to threaten its own furloughed members who seek or retain employment at Mesa's Freedom Airlines, while it makes a new Jets-for-Jobs agreement that actually would require Freedom and other non-union airlines to hire its pilots.

As US Airways’ economic condition continues to deteriorate, the US Airways MEC dropped its prohibition on subcontracting 70-seat RJs on condition that furloughed pilots have special employment and seniority rights to operate those aircraft, including any flown by Mesa's Freedom. Yet, ALPA's website still carries a warning to all ALPA members stating, "Working for Freedom Air is bad for the piloting profession and it's a gamble for your own career."

Adding to the controversy, on December 18th the US Airways MEC passed a resolution calling on ALPA to strip any member now working at Freedom of ALPA benefits, including union- paid health insurance. All this while ALPA facilitates employment at the new Republic Airlines, which was created as a non-union alter ego to Chautauqua for the express purpose of circumventing pilots rejection of Jets-for-Jobs.

New APA Proposal, "One Pilot Group" or just "One Contract"?

On December 19th, apparently without seeking approval of the Eagle MEC, the Allied Pilots Association (APA) proposed to AMR management that all Eagle flying be brought "in-house" and all flying in 50-seats or less be covered by a "commuter" side-letter in the APA contract.

However, on further examination the proposal is very similar to US Airways’ "Jets-for-Jobs" with the exception that it would be governed by a single labor contract. The similarities include the following:

"Commuter" pilots excluded from development of proposal and subsequent discussions with management.
"Mainline" pilots unilaterally determine distribution of aircraft and flying.
100% of "commuter" aircraft remain operationally and numerically restricted by "mainline" scope clause.
"Mainline" pilots given special seniority and bidding rights at "commuter" division.
Only limited number of "commuter" pilots permitted to bid mainline positions at a future date.
While the APA’s proposal is noteworthy in that it tacitly admits that their current scope has failed, like similar ALPA proposals, its fundamental flaw is that the RJ and its pilots are treated as something "less-than" the airline pilots and aircraft they are, and remain subject to unwarranted restrictions unilaterally imposed by another pilot group.

ALPA Pulls Plug on its Express Newsletter

In response to sharp criticism, ALPA will discontinue The ALPA Express after only three editions. The publication backfired badly for ALPA because its mere existence reflected ALPA's apparent belief that a substantial number of its members required a unique label and couldn't understand how the union really worked. In the now immortal words of one ASA pilot, "How about calling me an airline pilot…"

The publication's failure reflects ALPA's futile attempt to justify the unequal treatment of its members on the basis of which aircraft they fly. While ALPA pointed to the creation of numerous special committees, it could not hide the fact that its real scope policies were being established and implemented at the mainline bargaining table. As long as ALPA supports the efforts of its mainline interests to engage in predatory bargaining against ALPA's own members, no publication will be able to conceal the inherent conflict of interest.

While ALPA employs a professional communications staff, it's obvious that on the subject of scope, ALPA's leadership hasn't given them much to work with. In speaking of the demise of The ALPA Express, perhaps the editor of ALPA's Air Line Pilot magazine said it best, "I don't know whose idea it was."

Scope Proposals

Recently there have been some seniority-based scope "proposals" floated on various web boards. It's important to note that dysfunctional scope is the product of a dysfunctional union. Consequently, any proposal that looks to management to fix the union's internal problems is seriously flawed and destined to fail. As an example, one only need examine the history of American Eagle and US Airway's Express wholly-owned carriers to see how ALPA's members have been victimized by proposal after proposal made to management without any prerequisite changes in the union's conduct.

ALPA must first devise a way to represent all members at Delta equally and without discrimination. A viable internal union solution is one that works regardless of management's support or opposition. After that is accomplished, we can develop mutual solutions to mutual problems and then bargain effectively with management.