US Airways MEC’s Position on Freedom Air

[surplus1]

Some of you need a little reminder about the Furloughed US Airways pilots.

That's probably true. By the same token (based on your post), some US Airways pilots apparently need a few reminders themselves. You seem to be one of them.

These are the pilots who have lost their jobs only to be directly replaced by Mesa, Chautauqua, et. al.

Looks like it hasn't occured to you that any "replacement" of U pilots that may be occuring, whether by the carriers you named or any other, is a direct result of the actions taken by ALPA and your own UMEC. What you sew is what you reap.

Why do you guys have this attitude that the furloughed airways guys can now just go get bent while all of those jobs go to pilots fresh from flight instructing?

I don't know who "you guys" is in your context (but I can sure make a good guess) and I hate to answer a question with a question. However, why have you guys thought, for well over a decade, that the ALG/PDT/PSA pilots should "just get bent" while all of the RJ jobs went to subcontractors that "you guys" allowed to exist (and are now creating more of), while "you guys" hired fresh off the streets and ignored the WO subsidiaries? Why do "you guys" think that a 15-year captain at ALG or PDT is somehow less valuable than a 15-year captain at USAirways?

Why do you think these hard working very experienced long time ALPA pilots should just get it up the *** and get nothing from it? Why do you Mesa guys feel so f-ing entitled to everything?

Again, why do you think that the hard working very experienced long time ALPA pilots at ALG and PDT should just get it up the *** and get nothing from it (except being put out of business as a result of your MEC's and ALPA's action/inaction?

I can't speak for Mesa guys, because I'm a Comair guy but once more, I have to ask you the very same question. Why do you USAirways guys feel so f-ing entitled to everything? What makes you think that your 15 years of service is more important than my 15-years of service? What makes you think that your long term membership in the ALPA entitles you to more representation of your interests than my long term membership entitles me to receive?

Why do you have a "holier than thou" attitude because you're employed by USAirways and I am only employed by some commuter? When are you going to realize that what you are getting today (in terms of negative reaction from other pilots) is the by-product of your own unsavory behavior in the past? When are you going to own up and take responsibility for your own past actions? Why do you think that you are f-ing entitled to favorable treatment from "us" today, when you have handed out nothing but scorn and unfavorable treatment to "us" for more than a decade?

Whatever arangments are made with this j4j thing, the only thing that matters is that the furloughed US Airways pilots are taken care of first, and best.

There's that attitude again. YOU (USAirways pilots) must be taken care of "first and best" and whomever you screw in the process is A-OK with you. Well buddy, that idea is exactly why you have a problem. As soon as you start stepping on other peoples seniority, you're going to get kicked in the shins. Your attitude has always been that you don't want us on your list, even at the bottom and you don't want us flowing to your list either. Well you got what you wanted, now live with the consequences.

Now that it has not worked out the way you expected, you are demanding that we place you on our list, with super seniority and higher pay for the same job? Well my friend I'm real sorry there are furloughs at your airline but, as far as I'm concerned, you can take J4J and shove it where the sun don't shine!

Maybe you can force a few people to accept it. Maybe you can coerce others into doing it and maybe you can fool still others that are naive enough to buy your BS. Luckily there are some of us that are not quite as stupid as you seem to think.

The real sad part is the simple fact that you could have had free access to ALL of the new jobs IF your MEC and "our" union had gone about this in the right way. What's more, it could have happened with zero resentment and full support. But no, YOU are like you said .... f-ing entitled to first and best. Let me tell you again what you can do with that idea ..... shove it!

This is US Air flying. Protected with US Airways mainline scope and dues.

Looks like you still haven't figured it out but your predatory Scope obviously wasn't worth the paper it was written on now that the chips are down. It's history. Maybe if your dues and my dues had been used to represent all of us, instead of to discriminate against me and favor you, you would not be in this pickle.

It is nothing more than the pot calling the kettle black.

Well, you got that part right, but you still haven't figured out that the same applies to you. Are you the pot or the kettle?

You ......... have no problem whatever grabbing all of the old US Air mainline flying all the while holding your finger up to the furloughed mainline pilot.

Not pretty, eh? Well think about what it's like when you try to impose yourself on us, with super seniority and higher pay, when you and your kind have been flipping the bird to all regional pilots for years. If you now get a finger or two in return, perhaps it's high time. Don't want the bird? Then why have you been handing it out for so long? Maybe what goes around really does come around. Ever think of that?

Maybe we have come to see you as the same red-headed step child that you have called us for so long. "Cast your bread upon the waters" and it will come back to you. Looks like it might be your turn to get some of what you gave in kind.

I don't blame this on the USAirways line pilot. Most have simply been disinterested in what your leaders and the ALPA have been doing. However, the leadership of the International Union and of your MEC are undoubtedly responsible for creating the animosity that is now manifested and it is not just at USAirways, it's industry wide and growing. As soon as they can bring themselves to that realization we can take the first step in the rest of our lives and begin the process of reconciliation. Until they do, it will get far worse before it gets better.

You all need an attitude adjustment. Funny thing about mirrors, when you look in one you do see a reflection of yourself. You should try it. I think you live in a glass house with a lot more mirrors than found in our little glass shack. Large or small, glass houses don't fare well in stone throwing contests. "Let him that is whitout sin cast the first stone." You seem to think you are the pure one. As you may have guessed, I don't.

Here's hoping we'll all have a better New Year and both of us can stop throwing rocks at each other.

 

[surplus1]

What U WO do you work for? I never got to fly out east for YV but from what I have been told by my buddies I am thinking you have got to be an ALG or Piedmont pilot.

Nope. I'm not a U WO pilot and my airline has never had anything to do with USAir Group. I'm a Comair puke.

I'm not against Mesa or anyone at Mesa. Matter of fact, I'm not "against" any airline pilot. What I am against is the behavior of the ALPA in all of these scenarios. I'm against J4J and I'm against the APA effort to take Eagle pilots jobs while masquerading under the "one list" banner.

I'm also against alter egos, but that means I'm against ALL of them, not just Freedom. I'm against policies at my labor union that operate to encourage the creation of alter ego airlines and I am also against policies that help to support some of them, while opposing others. I think ALPA's policies have done that and I want those policies to change.

I think that ALPA's policies on Scope have been wrong and I also think that if those policies had been different, many of the pilots that are furloughed today would never have been furloughed at all, even in the current circumstances.

I don't wish furloughs on anyone and I would like to see all furloughed pilots either recalled or employed at other airlines. I think it is absurd in the extreme that one airline is furloughing and another hiring (but not the furloughed pilots) while both are owned by the same Company and, but for flawed ALPA policy, are really one airline.

I think J4J does NOT hasten the employment of furloughed U pilots, but operates to do the exact opposite. I think that sucks. Had ALPA done the right thing, I believe most of those pilots would either be flying now or in the near term, without any infighting or animosity. Their new jobs would not be as good as their old jobs but they would surely be better than NO job.

I'm not against Scope. It's a good thing and a necessary thing but it's purpose is not to transfer work or to take from others or to divide pilots in the same Company and pit them against each other. If you give away part of your work (which they all did) you can't expect, years later, to take it back and just dump on the pilots that are doing it, by changing your scope. Not without creating the kind of wars that are happening and brewing now.

I am not questioning that Chautauqua is starting republic. Only your conclusion that this proves a UMEC/ALPA conspiracy to abrogate Mesa or any other airlines seniority lists. I must disagree.

OK, I don't mind if you disagree. I only ask that you agree or disagree with what I actually say and not some different idea of what I may have meant.

I didn't say there was an ALPA/UMEC conspiracy. There is no conspiracy, what's there is direct and overt action. Jets for Jobs, requires any accepting pilot group to abrogate its seniority to USAirways pilots and to abrogate its contract by allowing them to be paid more money for doing the same job. In my opinion, that is far worse than a conspiracy, it is an overt act against the pilots of the small airline, most of whom are members of the same union and I believe it is wrong.

I do NOT object to the U pilots being hired. I think they should be hired in preference to anyone else and in every vacancy created by new subcontracted flying for USAirGroup. I do NOT think they should have created Mid Atlantic (an alter ego) or excluded the WO pilots (which they did) and I do NOT think they should get super seniority or higher pay. That is why everyone that could has voted it down so far. ALG/PDT/PSA were coerced into accepting. I think those guys got screwed, not by Mesa, but by ALPA and the UMEC. That they are not suing the ALPA is only a miracle.

I blame ALPA because ALPA is the bargaining agent. If the ALPA president can refuse to sign a bad deal at CCAir, he can also refuse to sign a bad deal at USAirways. Jets for Jobs is a bad deal and should not exist in its present form. It reflects bargaining in bad faith and blatant discrimination. IMO, it violates ALPA's Duty of Fair Representation.

You should know that I don't call Mesa pilots anything except "brother". I want you to get a good contract. If you continue to get inferior contracts, by a wide margin, that only puts pressure on my contract to grant concessions. I don't want that. I don't want to see you flying those 50, 70 and 90-seat jets for less money than I am paid to do the same thing. Ultimately, that will only force us to make concessions. Call it self-interest if you like, but it does not come at your expense.

You aren't going to get a "mainline contract". Keep in mind that most "mainline contracts" are currently falling by the wayside. However, you can and should get a reasonable contract. One like AWA,CMR, ASA, ACA, is well within the ability of your Company to provide, while remaining profitable.

I fully realize that your Company is the "lowest bidder", not the Mesa Pilots. That can only happen because your contract is inferior. I don't mind competing with you on a level playing field, but I don't want to have to compete while you are being taken advantage of. That will only cause me to be taken advantage of too. When it comes to what you can negotiate, we are on the same side.

I hope that the NMB will grant your single carrier petition with Freedom and think that is the way to go. I don't see blackballing Freedom pilots as the answer and think that is a mistake.

I also think that a jumpseat war is a very BIG mistake. The jumpseat should NEVER be used as a political tool of any kind. The end result of that could be that we ALL lose the jumpseat. Trying to make the jumpseat a political football will ultimately bite us all in the arse.

The union should oppose Freedom, but it should also oppose every other alter ego airline. Belonging to the union does not make an alter ego a "good thing". Fighting alter egos is a lot more important, in my mind, that toting pistols in the cockpit. The union's priorities often appear to be misplaced. Why is that? Maybe it's because the union's policies are dictated by the major airline pilots who are not concerned by what happens to the regional pilots, until it affects them. By the time it does (and it will if this continues) it may well be too late to stop the alter ego trend.

ALPA has had a policy against alter egos for a long time. In 1998, the major airlines chose to weaken that policy which I think was a mistake. Today, the union is trying to selectively object to or condone "different" alter egos based on their union affiliation or lack thereof. That is double speak and nothing more than a policy that caters to the "convenience" of certain major airlines. That is bad policy and bad politics.

Your resentment of Freedom is, I think, justified. It is extremely dangerous to your future. However, your war is with management and your union, not with Freedom pilots. That's where you and I disagree. It is true the pilots didn't have to work there, but they did not create the alter ego. The union's absurd Scope policy at USAir Group did. The jets for jobs policy is creating Republic (at CHQ) and has already created Mid Atlantic. You have to call a spade a spade.

I also agree that JO is using Freedom against you and you have to fight that. Nevertheless, there would have been no need for Freedom if the USAirways Scope clause did not attempt to prevent MSAG from conducting buisness with other airlines. Like it or not, Freedom is little more than the product of ALPA's effort to prevent the use of the RJ-70/90 at regional carriers. Just as it is ALPA's policy to restrict the deployment of RJ's of all sizes, everywhere.

Exclusive Scope doesn't work. Especially within the same airline system. Calling an alter ego a subcontractor is a farse and attempting to scope it out, after the fact, is ludicrous. As long as you have one Company operating several airlines with separate pilot groups, conventional Scope is doomed.

Either you allow no subcontracting at all, or you find a different way to accomodate the subcontracting that you have already allowed. Once you open the barn door, you cannot close it in contradiction of market forces. It hasn't worked and it will not work. Either we change the way we fight the battle or we (ALPA) will lose the war.

If you're right ALPA would lose all credibility and probably be sued into non-existence.

Sadly, ALPA may have already lost much of its credibility with respect to these issues and, if it continues on this course, will lose much more. A union for "all airline pilots" cannot survive on a platform that labels 15,000 of those pilots as inferior and treats them as second-class members.

Thanks for your support??? I really dont want to hear the words "we have been released to strike" but staying and waiting for the inevitable does not seem any more attractive. I saw that movie already and didn't like the ending much.

The strike decision will have to be yours. However, I advise much caution. The climate today is quite different from what it was only 2 years ago. About all I can say is that strikes are seldom very productive. Like you, I have seen that movie and I didn't like the ending either. A former president of ALPA once told me, "Never point a loaded gun at the head of another man unless you are prepared to pull the trigger" (and live with the consequences). I think he gave good advice.

Again, I wish you succes in your very difficult negotiations. I hope the New Year will be better for all of us.

 

[racerX]

I am one of those people who can't understand why anyone would think that what Freedom and Republic are doing OK. It is wrong. But rather than arguing on the web, does anyone know which of our elected representatives would be best to contact regarding all of this?

 

[got_jumpseat?]

Your resentment of Freedom is, I think, justified. It is extremely dangerous to your future. However, your war is with management and your union, not with Freedom pilots. That's where you and I disagree. It is true the pilots didn't have to work there, but they did not create the alter ego. The union's absurd Scope policy at USAir Group did. The jets for jobs policy is creating Republic (at CHQ) and has already created Mid Atlantic. You have to call a spade a spade.

I also agree that JO is using Freedom against you and you have to fight that. Nevertheless, there would have been no need for Freedom if the USAirways Scope clause did not attempt to prevent MSAG from conducting buisness with other airlines. Like it or not, Freedom is little more than the product of ALPA's effort to prevent the use of the RJ-70/90 at regional carriers. Just as it is ALPA's policy to restrict the deployment of RJ's of all sizes, everywhere.

A former president of ALPA once told me, "Never point a loaded gun at the head of another man unless you are prepared to pull the trigger" (and live with the consequences). I think he gave good advice.

Again, I wish you succes in your very difficult negotiations. I hope the New Year will be better for all of us.

Our MEC has never been against the creation of new certificates, only againt their being staffed with non-mesa pilots. The fact of the matter being Freedom could have been started and operated by Mesa pilots from the first flight.

Very good advice about loaded weapons. I own a firearm and have never pointed it at another person. If you are not willing to actually go the distance and pull the trigger, your opponent will sense that and simply take the loaded weapon from your hand, and most likely shoot you with the same weapon.

I don't think I will ever go to Freedom, even after we capture the flying, if we do. Up until two weeks ago I was very positive we would secure the freedom flying. But the last round of negotiations that started recent rumors went bad, and to be honest I think their validity and urgency (of the rumors) have been toned down a bit for the pilot group at large. I am not so sure our MEC will win this fight. I have a bad feeling we will be on strike by February and I hope I am wrong. If we have to strike I think that will be the end of Mesa. I think Orenstien will give all strike status pilots a week to decide if they want to accept employment at freedom or say sayonara.

My gut feeling is he has been giving us hope, like the "frog in a teakettle" and when he feels his time has run out and he is more adequately staffed at Freedom he will play his wild card and let us strike. He has never intended to play fair with us. Our MEC officials been played like suckers. Now I hope I am wrong and will gladly write an apology to all involved if we get our contract.

 

[InclusiveScope]

RJ Defense Coalition
Ensuring One Level of Representation
www.rjdefense.com
reply to: [email protected]

Update

January 1, 2003

Comair MEC Takes Position on Preferential Hiring and Delta Mainline Scope

At a December 3rd meeting requested by the Delta MEC to discuss preferential hiring of furloughed Delta pilots, the Comair MEC told the Delta pilot leadership that hiring pilots with dual employment rights raises "numerous substantive concerns." Alternatively, the Comair MEC suggested that the Delta MEC either relax scope restrictions that limit Comair growth, consider negotiating system-wide "brand" scope, or pursue creation of a single pilot group.

Despite the Delta pilot leadership's self denial, the Comair MEC’s position reflects the hard reality that the furlough of more than 1,000 Delta pilots has been caused largely by the Delta MEC’s so-called scope "protections," not the purported lack of them. Thus, there can be no credible solution to the furlough problem without true scope reform. Furthermore, as the RJDC pointed out over a year ago, the "hiring" of Delta employees creates problems that, while not insurmountable, must be addressed in a way that fairly and equitably reflects ALPA's duty to ASA and Comair pilots.

Is the Delta Pilot Leadership Caught in its own Tangled Web?

In response to charges that ALPA's support of the Delta MEC’s predatory agenda creates an inherent conflict of interest, the union has argued that ASA, Comair, and Delta are separate airlines. Notwithstanding the obvious questions about relevance of such arguments, any meaningful arrangements involving ASA and Comair would presumably require that the respective companies be something less than separate. Consequently, any union demand for special employment rights for Delta's furloughed pilots at ASA and Comair tend to undermine ALPA's own legal arguments.

Because ASA and Comair pilots have proven that they are more than capable of mounting a credible legal challenge to the union's actions, the Delta pilot leadership now finds itself choosing between furlough relief and defending its predatory bargaining practices. Unfortunately for the rank and file, ALPA's leadership has again chosen politics over principle by continuing its defense of the indefensible.

Court Date Set

On January 31, 2003 the US District Court will hear oral arguments on ALPA's motion to dismiss Ford v. ALPA and our motion to add 300 additional pilots to the suit. The hearing will be held in the US District Court House in Brooklyn, New York. The arguments will be made in open court and the public is permitted to attend.

Wall Street Journal Article Suggests that More Delta Mainline Negotiations are Inevitable

The Wall Street Journal reported on December 23 that the wave of pay and work rule concessions at Delta's competitors would force the Delta pilot leadership to do likewise if the company is to remain cost-competitive. "Absent a change in pilot economies - either wages or work rules - Delta's ability to lower its costs is severely handicapped," according to an analyst with J.P. Morgan.

If there is another round of concessionary bargaining at Delta, ALPA's leadership will find itself at a crossroads that could determine the fate of the union and the industry. If the Delta pilot leadership seeks to follow the same path chosen by ALPA's other mainline pilot groups and ride roughshod over the rights of ASA and Comair pilots, it will undoubtedly worsen ALPA's legal woes.

On the other hand, the prospect of another round of bargaining could give ALPA the chance to correct past injustices and eliminate the need for further litigation. Whether this will be ALPA's finest hour, or its Waterloo, will be up to ALPA's leadership to decide.

More ALPA Contradictions: US Airways Furloughees Threatened over Freedom Employment, while ALPA Cuts Deal that Actually Requires Freedom to Hire its Pilots

Caught between economic reality and political rhetoric, ALPA continues to threaten its own furloughed members who seek or retain employment at Mesa's Freedom Airlines, while it makes a new Jets-for-Jobs agreement that actually would require Freedom and other non-union airlines to hire its pilots.

As US Airways’ economic condition continues to deteriorate, the US Airways MEC dropped its prohibition on subcontracting 70-seat RJs on condition that furloughed pilots have special employment and seniority rights to operate those aircraft, including any flown by Mesa's Freedom. Yet, ALPA's website still carries a warning to all ALPA members stating, "Working for Freedom Air is bad for the piloting profession and it's a gamble for your own career."

Adding to the controversy, on December 18th the US Airways MEC passed a resolution calling on ALPA to strip any member now working at Freedom of ALPA benefits, including union- paid health insurance. All this while ALPA facilitates employment at the new Republic Airlines, which was created as a non-union alter ego to Chautauqua for the express purpose of circumventing pilots rejection of Jets-for-Jobs.

New APA Proposal, "One Pilot Group" or just "One Contract"?

On December 19th, apparently without seeking approval of the Eagle MEC, the Allied Pilots Association (APA) proposed to AMR management that all Eagle flying be brought "in-house" and all flying in 50-seats or less be covered by a "commuter" side-letter in the APA contract.

However, on further examination the proposal is very similar to US Airways’ "Jets-for-Jobs" with the exception that it would be governed by a single labor contract. The similarities include the following:

"Commuter" pilots excluded from development of proposal and subsequent discussions with management.
"Mainline" pilots unilaterally determine distribution of aircraft and flying.
100% of "commuter" aircraft remain operationally and numerically restricted by "mainline" scope clause.
"Mainline" pilots given special seniority and bidding rights at "commuter" division.
Only limited number of "commuter" pilots permitted to bid mainline positions at a future date.
While the APA’s proposal is noteworthy in that it tacitly admits that their current scope has failed, like similar ALPA proposals, its fundamental flaw is that the RJ and its pilots are treated as something "less-than" the airline pilots and aircraft they are, and remain subject to unwarranted restrictions unilaterally imposed by another pilot group.

ALPA Pulls Plug on its Express Newsletter

In response to sharp criticism, ALPA will discontinue The ALPA Express after only three editions. The publication backfired badly for ALPA because its mere existence reflected ALPA's apparent belief that a substantial number of its members required a unique label and couldn't understand how the union really worked. In the now immortal words of one ASA pilot, "How about calling me an airline pilot…"

The publication's failure reflects ALPA's futile attempt to justify the unequal treatment of its members on the basis of which aircraft they fly. While ALPA pointed to the creation of numerous special committees, it could not hide the fact that its real scope policies were being established and implemented at the mainline bargaining table. As long as ALPA supports the efforts of its mainline interests to engage in predatory bargaining against ALPA's own members, no publication will be able to conceal the inherent conflict of interest.

While ALPA employs a professional communications staff, it's obvious that on the subject of scope, ALPA's leadership hasn't given them much to work with. In speaking of the demise of The ALPA Express, perhaps the editor of ALPA's Air Line Pilot magazine said it best, "I don't know whose idea it was."

Scope Proposals

Recently there have been some seniority-based scope "proposals" floated on various web boards. It's important to note that dysfunctional scope is the product of a dysfunctional union. Consequently, any proposal that looks to management to fix the union's internal problems is seriously flawed and destined to fail. As an example, one only need examine the history of American Eagle and US Airway's Express wholly-owned carriers to see how ALPA's members have been victimized by proposal after proposal made to management without any prerequisite changes in the union's conduct.

ALPA must first devise a way to represent all members at Delta equally and without discrimination. A viable internal union solution is one that works regardless of management's support or opposition. After that is accomplished, we can develop mutual solutions to mutual problems and then bargain effectively with management.

 

[racerX]

You must be one boring dude to fly with.

Isn't there a limit on the number of words you're allowed to use?

 

[got_jumpseat?]

RJ Defense Coalition
Ensuring One Level of Representation
www.rjdefense.com
reply to: [email protected]

Update

January 1, 2003

Comair MEC Takes Position on Preferential Hiring and Delta Mainline Scope

At a December 3rd meeting requested by the Delta MEC to discuss blah blah blah rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric blah blah blah and in closing, blah.

(im sort of joking, i did read the whole thing its interesting)

OK, I can appreciate the RJ defence coalition cause and as soon as they want to go to bat for Mesa pilots and fight for us to have a new contract I will support them. Right now the only voice I have is ALPA. They may not be perfect but it is the only voice I have that makes a difference. I dont see the RJDC trying to get me a new contract right now and the RJDC won't pay me or find me a flying job if Mesa is shut down during a work action.

Wasn't the RJDC started with the help of Mesa mgmt executives? Wasn't it's offices originally in Phoenix? The RJDC seems to make a lot of sense but in the words of so many once furloughed Mesa pilots that went to freedom "they havent done a d@mn thing for me".. Although they were typically speaking about ALPA. No kidding ding dongs you guys were still on probation but ALPA has represented probationary pilots in the past.