US AIRWAYS Jackbones!

[aa73]

Dangerkitty, Machforest,

At ease, Gentlemen!

Here's a completely, objective fact, posted on C&R:

When AA/APA forced the TWA pilots to give up their rights to third party neutral arbitration as a condition of employment, the die was cast.

Very simply, in ANY merger/acquisition, if both parties cannot come to an agreement, the ONLY FAIR WAY is through neutral arbitration. AA/APA basically told TWA, "We're not interested in playing fair, and therefore we will not allow this to go to arbitration. We will impose whatever integration we want."

Now, the argument CAN be made that AA/APA did not have to play fair in the first place, because we were the buyers and we don't have the same union as TWA. But however you look at it, I smell a wee odor in the air when our own company and union forces the other party to waive their rights to neutral arbitration. It's kind of like arresting someone and forcing them to give up their rights to a lawyer so that there is no "interference" to whatever punishment will be imposed.

Had our integration gone to arbitration, maybe TWA would have gotten the same deal - and maybe not. Whatever the outcome would have been, at least we would have showed them that we respected the historical precedence in mergers/acquisitions by letting it go to neutral arbitration - and the AA/TWA pilots could only blame the arbitrator in the end.

Look at AWA/USAir: Almost the same exact scenario as ours - AWA is the healthier carrier, USAIr was in BK. However, that integration WILL be decided by neutral arbitration. Doesn't matter that the US pilots had very little career expectations. Doesn't matter that AWA was a healthier airline. Neutral arbitration is the only fair way. And that's what we should have done.

These, folks, are the facts. Both of you are right, and neither of you are right. TWA pilots were screwed for the above reasons, and the rank and file AA pilots are not scAAbs because of it.

v/r,
73

 

[AAflyer]

Your correct kitty.
I had to take English as a second language at Embry Riddle with all the foreigners. (Not really but should have). Its not one of my strong points I will admit but at least I have morals and culture from one of Americas safest Airlines. Can you say the same?
I was a teenage Flight Instructor kitty, and as a young child I laid on my back in the corn fields of Michigan and looked at the trials of jets going overhead from LAX to NY and dreamed of being a TWA pilot. I realized that dream and then APA happened. You should be ashamed of yourself for posting anything on the web if you are truly an APA member trying to justify what you have done to the Pilots of TWA. Your group has been the example (joke) of many training departments including TWA. Are you really a pilot or a Flight Attendant on a pilot’s site? Look in the mirror again you *************************( Moderator I meant that as a reference to kitty Cat) and say that APA pilots are not scabs. I am sorry that we have hijacked the merger of AWA and UsAir’s topic but that’s what happens when SCABS present themselves and post. Good luck to you all at UsAir as I expect the AWA guys and gals will be most fair as you merge your diverse group.
Mach8Forest

Mach,

Many of us including AA73 do not agree with what happened to you, so please do not label us all, lastly as SCABS. I have 8+ years at titanic AMR plus another 5 airlines and 3 furloughs. It is unfair of you to label all AA pilots under what a select few on the APA BOD did. I certainly wouldn't do that to you or ALPA ( i have been ALPA at two other airlines).

Lastly, you hijacked this thread, and no one else, did you truly not expect a response from some, you had to know you were baiting a few people.

I am sorry for the actions which hurt you, hoping you can return here when recalled, or if you are at a better place I hope it works out for you.

regards,

AAflyer

 

[Mach8Forest]

Dear Kitty,
Your maturity shows in your post. Three great years as an Aahole. As far as getting a life I have achieved much beyond the cockpit but the AA/ TWA merger is a real sore spot in my life. Having such an incompetent spineless pilot group rape us is hard to swallow. TWA training department had to empty it’s files of don’t do this and don’t do this fatal accident and incident reviews when we were bought as the majority were your great Aaviators flights. Sorry if you were not there at these times as you were born on third base but again you should be ashamed of your (DISUNION APA) and look in the mirror and say I am a SCAB I am an APA member! SCABS UNITE (APA)
Mach8Forest

 

[~~~^~~~]

Kinky for Govnr'

https://www.kinkyfriedman.com/multimedia/gallery2/main.php

 

[Mach8Forest]

Sorry for the AWA/UsAir interuption of topic with your merger. You must respect and protect your brothers jobs what ever side your on to save our profession. I will repost something here from another board as I responded to misinformation of an AAhole trying to justify APA's action as response to TWA/OZ merger. I am tired of typing goodnight and Good luck!

The posts by some of you arrogant APA/AA guys are incredible. You are the Bean Counters dream of true Unionism. Ready,Willing, and Able SCABS at their finest. Your group is not a union at all but just simply a special interest group that spreads miss information among its masses in order to justify its wrongs. When should a true union use corporate finances as a weapon to strip someone else of their careers to better their own? NEVER! Lucky for you that safety records or TWA’s past merger policy was not the vehicle of our seniority.
This merger reminded me of something I witnessed in 1989 pushing back in an L1011 at JFK bound for Lisbon. Seagulls on top of our Jetway attacked a pigeon as we were pushing back. The pigeon appeared to have been killed as it lay on its side bleeding as we were starting the engines. I asked the captain I was flying with what was that all about. He believed that the seagulls were sick of competing for food and decided collectively to kill this pigeon.
APA should have taken pilots when they took TWA’s London Routes as United did with PA but did not. TWA at that time carried more people to London than AA did to the whole continent of Europe. Years followed and with the Ego threat of not being the biggest against United, AA went into action. AA could not grow internally fast enough to compete so they had to purchase someone. Lets think about this for a moment with some reason. Here sits TWA, a East/ West flow airline with a big hub (STL) sandwiched between AA’s two Major East/ West flow hubs (DFW, ORD) and was hurting East/West yields. TWA had over a hundred east coast landing slots (88 in NY) with facilities, Hangers, and gates on both coasts. Their reservation system was worth millions on the market. After the demise of Eastern and Pan Am AA enjoyed virtually no competition on very high yield routes in the Caribbean. Here sits TWA again as they developed a SJU mini Hub. They became the only future hub threat in the Caribbean with over 60 flights per day and growing out of SJU. TWA also had Route authority’s beyond imagination for an expanding AA airline.
As far as the Ozark merger is concerned only one guy in any merger believes he did not get screwed and he is number one. The rest feel that even with a date of hire scenario with fences like the TWA/OZ merger that they somehow lost something. I have friends on both sides of the fence. I can tell you that when I was an engineer in NY on the L1011 some of my favorite Captains including the number one man on that equipment were Green (OZ).
Mergers with lopsided past hiring dates create additional problems among pilots and their ego’s of who should get what. AA and Reno Air is a good example as they were a young airline bought by an older seniority. The real test for the industry will be the AWA and USAIR outcome or when the regionals start to merge. TWA’s pilot seniority was super close as 1989 hires were checking out as captains at both carriers.
Correct me if I am wrong but didn’t Nashville Eagle (APA) give bankrupt Air Virginia (ALPA) pilots date of hire with fences in an exact buyout scenario?
Well enough whining as a prior AA post described our venting. Look in the rear view mirror my AA friends and remember the words APA used during the slashing of our livelihoods and families well being. This industries fate is still unpredictable. There is no corporate crystal ball in this industry. Radicals who apply ignorant self-serving beliefs for their own advantage should not lead unions. These false beliefs are not relevant in merger discussions among organized professional labor groups. Mach8Forest!

 

[Dangerkitty]

Dear Kitty,
Your maturity shows in your post. Three great years as an Aahole. As far as getting a life I have achieved much beyond the cockpit but the AA/ TWA merger is a real sore spot in my life. Having such an incompetent spineless pilot group rape us is hard to swallow. TWA training department had to empty it’s files of don’t do this and don’t do this fatal accident and incident reviews when we were bought as the majority were your great Aaviators flights. Sorry if you were not there at these times as you were born on third base but again you should be ashamed of your (DISUNION APA) and look in the mirror and say I am a SCAB I am an APA member! SCABS UNITE (APA)
Mach8Forest

If you have the time during your furlough you might want to go to your local Junior High School for some English and Writing Classes.

You honestly have the worst writing and grammatical skills I have ever seen from a so called aviator.

Still waiting on that list of flight departments where AA's training was a joke.

 

[Dangerkitty]

I will repost something here from another board as I responded to misinformation of an AAhole trying to justify APA's action as response to TWA/OZ merger. I am tired of typing goodnight and Good luck!

You truly are a pathetic dumba$$.

I have tried to justify nothing. I have stated many times overs that the rank and file AA pilot had nothing to do with the integration.

So go ahead and post that on twapilots.com

Maybe they will see what an idiot you are as well.

 

[enigma]

Sorry for the AWA/UsAir interuption of topic with your merger. You must respect and protect your brothers jobs what ever side your on to save our profession. I will repost something here from another board as I responded to misinformation of an AAhole trying to justify APA's action as response to TWA/OZ merger. I am tired of typing goodnight and Good luck!

The posts by some of you arrogant APA/AA guys are incredible. You are the Bean Counters dream of true Unionism. Ready,Willing, and Able SCABS at their finest. Your group is not a union at all but just simply a special interest group that spreads miss information among its masses in order to justify its wrongs. When should a true union use corporate finances as a weapon to strip someone else of their careers to better their own? NEVER! Lucky for you that safety records or TWA’s past merger policy was not the vehicle of our seniority.
This merger reminded me of something I witnessed in 1989 pushing back in an L1011 at JFK bound for Lisbon. Seagulls on top of our Jetway attacked a pigeon as we were pushing back. The pigeon appeared to have been killed as it lay on its side bleeding as we were starting the engines. I asked the captain I was flying with what was that all about. He believed that the seagulls were sick of competing for food and decided collectively to kill this pigeon.
APA should have taken pilots when they took TWA’s London Routes as United did with PA but did not. TWA at that time carried more people to London than AA did to the whole continent of Europe. Years followed and with the Ego threat of not being the biggest against United, AA went into action. AA could not grow internally fast enough to compete so they had to purchase someone. Lets think about this for a moment with some reason. Here sits TWA, a East/ West flow airline with a big hub (STL) sandwiched between AA’s two Major East/ West flow hubs (DFW, ORD) and was hurting East/West yields. TWA had over a hundred east coast landing slots (88 in NY) with facilities, Hangers, and gates on both coasts. Their reservation system was worth millions on the market. After the demise of Eastern and Pan Am AA enjoyed virtually no competition on very high yield routes in the Caribbean. Here sits TWA again as they developed a SJU mini Hub. They became the only future hub threat in the Caribbean with over 60 flights per day and growing out of SJU. TWA also had Route authority’s beyond imagination for an expanding AA airline.
As far as the Ozark merger is concerned only one guy in any merger believes he did not get screwed and he is number one. The rest feel that even with a date of hire scenario with fences like the TWA/OZ merger that they somehow lost something. I have friends on both sides of the fence. I can tell you that when I was an engineer in NY on the L1011 some of my favorite Captains including the number one man on that equipment were Green (OZ).
Mergers with lopsided past hiring dates create additional problems among pilots and their ego’s of who should get what. AA and Reno Air is a good example as they were a young airline bought by an older seniority. The real test for the industry will be the AWA and USAIR outcome or when the regionals start to merge. TWA’s pilot seniority was super close as 1989 hires were checking out as captains at both carriers.
Correct me if I am wrong but didn’t Nashville Eagle (APA) give bankrupt Air Virginia (ALPA) pilots date of hire with fences in an exact buyout scenario?
Well enough whining as a prior AA post described our venting. Look in the rear view mirror my AA friends and remember the words APA used during the slashing of our livelihoods and families well being. This industries fate is still unpredictable. There is no corporate crystal ball in this industry. Radicals who apply ignorant self-serving beliefs for their own advantage should not lead unions. These false beliefs are not relevant in merger discussions among organized professional labor groups. Mach8Forest!

Mach8Forest, this is a pretty decent account of how one company took advantage of another, but I don't see anything in it detailing how the PILOTs of AA forced AA management to do anything to either TWA or its pilots.

In short, berate AA suits all you want, but you might want to remember the only difference between you, me and an AA PILOT is luck, or the lack thereof. Most of us took the first decent job that was offered, and we make the best of what we get. Please stop the infighting!

enigma

 

[XTW]

XTW--Throw me a beer! TC

At this point, I'm well into the Cabo Wabo tequila.:nuts: Sshh, don't tell Slagpuppy!

 

[Stifler's Mom]

AWA guys should be pushing for a steel cage, "Mad Max - Thunderdome" style fight. First guy out is last on the seniority list, and so on.

The way I look at it, with USAir furloughing up in the neighborhood of 15+ years, it would be like beating up your grandpa.

Just kidding.

 

[Mach8Forest]

Kitty cat post.
I have tried to justify nothing. I have stated many times overs that the rank and file AA pilot had nothing to do with the integration.
So you do not vote in your union officers? Are they are self appointed and do what they want?
WOW
Did they give you an IQ test when they hired you?
Mach8Forest

 

[enigma]

Just curious, do you US Airways jackbones really feel like you should have any realitive seniority at America West? (Regardless of the new name, these guys saved your asses. Do you really feel like you "deserve" any seniority based on date of hire?)

They probably do, as we all would if we were in their shoes. They've been bullied by management, taken massive pay cuts, etc over the last six years and I'm sure that they feel that they are a large part of their airlines continued existance. I'd venture to say that if it weren't for the sacrifices of the AAA pilots, there wouldn't have been an airline for HP to buy. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that they had the career expectation of an HP pilot at the time of the merge, but they deserve more than a staple.

I don't have a dog in the fight, but it sure is hard to understand the mentalitly of "entittleship" that is going on over there when you would have been out of a job years ago if you weren't bailed out by someone.

I don't have a dog in the fight either, but see the above paragraph for some insight into a sense of "entitlement", (not entittleship) They feel entitled because they WERE the bailers.

enigma

BTW, I don't know enough of the facts to have a real opinion about the integration, please don't read this as a defense of date of hire integration or a defense of any actions taken by the AAA MEC over the years. I responded specifically to willies post.

 

[Mach8Forest]

XTW,
You owe me some beer from a debt you incurred in Paris.
Mach8Forest

 

[Dangerkitty]

Kitty cat post.
I have tried to justify nothing. I have stated many times overs that the rank and file AA pilot had nothing to do with the integration.
So you do not vote in your union officers? Are they are self appointed and do what they want?
WOW
Did they give you an IQ test when they hired you?
Mach8Forest

Either you are incredibly drunk or have an extra chromosome lingering around that is hampering normal intelligence.

The union officers were voted into APA office before I was hired.

Feel better now Corky?

 

[Dangerkitty]

Mach8Forsest aka Corky

I know that this might be real tough for you to learn, but how about using the quote function? It will make it easier for us to watch you make an idiot out of yourself.

Thank you.

 

[Mach8Forest]

Keep wearing your APA pin kitty.
Mach8Forest
Did they give you AA IQ test?
Mach8Forest

 

[Dangerkitty]

Did they give you AA IQ test?

What? Please learn how to get a f**king point across.

 

[Mach8Forest]

What? Please learn how to get a f**king point across.

The point is Kitty that you are part of a disgusting self serving pilot association that raped a historic union of pilots for advancement of your own careers. Is that point clear enough for you?
Mach8Forest

 

[Dangerkitty]

The point is Kitty that you are part of a disgusting self serving pilot association that raped a historic union of pilots for advancement of your own careers. Is that point clear enough for you?
Mach8Forest

OK, let me state this again.

I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE INTEGRATION. NOTHING. WHAT IN THE HELL IS IT GOING TO TAKE TO MAKE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT I ALONG WITH THE OTHER 99.9% OF THE AA/APA PILOTS DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO F**K UP YOUR PATHETIC LITTLE CAREER.

When you realize that point then maybe your blood pressure will start to get below 180/130.

And dont give me this I am part of a disgusting union BS. ALPA has 100 times more skeletons in their closet than the APA does when it comes to doing what is right.

If APA is so bad and ALPA is so sweet and innocent then why are all those TWA pilots suing ALPA?

 

[AA717driver]

XTW--I'll take tequila, grain alcohol, formaldahyde, Prestone... Just give me something to end the misery! TC

 

[TWA Dude]

Mach8Forest, this is a pretty decent account of how one company took advantage of another, but I don't see anything in it detailing how the PILOTs of AA forced AA management to do anything to either TWA or its pilots.

Hi enigma. Just so you know, AA's official policy was to let APA determine the integration and they'd sign off on it as long as it didn't cause any training costs. AA supplied a "mediator" for the sham talks between TWA and APA but it came to nought.

 

[Ty Webb]

Sheesh!

It seems pretty simple to someone on the outside looking in:

Date-of-hire is not workable, neither is a staple. Pick the most senior USAirways guy (may require a nursing home visit) and the most senior AWA guy, and then integrate the lists by relative seniority. All newhire positions to be filled by Airways recalls . . . five year fence . . . . end of story, already.




.

 

[ironspud]

Sheesh!

It seems pretty simple to someone on the outside looking in:

Date-of-hire is not workable, neither is a staple. Pick the most senior USAirways guy (may require a nursing home visit) and the most senior AWA guy, and then integrate the lists by relative seniority. All newhire positions to be filled by Airways recalls . . . five year fence . . . . end of story, already.




.

No, no, no. Those "strong personality", "we invented flying" AA/APA types set the standard. Remember... the USAir Captains are "illegitimate" Captains and must be stapled. The new reality.

 

[twasurfer]

PooSSY –I mean- Kitty, your lack of understanding of what happened to TWA and its more senior crews is appalling. You act like an immature and complete jerk. I was starting my 4th year when I was furloughed so to some extent my life was just stirred up not completely shaken.

I don’t agree that you are a SCAB. I agree with you on that. BUT, Our union- I have no choice in saying it any other way- It was a big gun that was put to my head- Our union screwed us royally. And you what to know something, they screwed you too. As an employer any AA resumes that come across my desk are promptly trashed. In my ground school classes we talk about AA. In fact the other day I was pointing out the “get there it is” and the Little Rock accident. Even at TWA we looked at many accidents- some were ours, most were yours.

So back off- you don’t have a dog in this fight.

I was furloughed OCT 02- Want to talk about what a great union APA is and why some could flow back and some got longer travel privileges? I know the obvious answer is the 2002 contract, but remember in the next years section 6 talks once they get rid of the call back with the next contract you and I will both be in the same boat. Great union APA, got to really love them.

 

[AA717driver]

aa73--Pretty good synopsis of what happened.

Mach8--Call the APA people whatever you want but they are not SCABS. That is reserved for those who were furloughed from ALPA carriers who crossed the Continental picket line in the '80's and others who crossed the line at EAL in '89.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled $h!t-slinging.TC

 

[AAslag]

Man, I picked the wrong day to quit sniffing glue. Hey XTW, on your next poop sling send me a shot of that Cabo Wabo!

I see TC's gonna be breakin wind with the frenchie's on the 12th. He's got it pretty rough right? Works one day a month and makes more than Bill Gates.

Ok, back to the bitter trench warfare.

 

[NEDude]

The major players are the investors who are rolling the dice in the new company.

If that is the case, give Air Wisconsin pilots super seniority because their concessions make up a large chunk of the original money invested in the new merged airline

 

[AA717driver]

I see TC's gonna be breakin wind with the frenchie's on the 12th. He's got it pretty rough right? Works one day a month and makes more than Bill Gates.

Ok, back to the bitter trench warfare.

Yeah, and every April 15th, you can call me and thank me for paying your salary... TC

 

[ironspud]

.... YOUR PATHETIC LITTLE CAREER.

quote]

Pretty much says it all, don't it?

 

[Dangerkitty]

PooSSY –I mean- Kitty

WOW! Original put down. That really smarts!

your lack of understanding of what happened to TWA and its more senior crews is appalling.

Show me where I have shown a lack of understanding of what happened to TWA and its more senior crews.

You act like an immature and complete jerk.

Thats in the eyes of the beholder. I only got into the mess when some d0uchebag with an extra chromosome named Mach8Forest started calling all the APA pilots Scabs just because he didn't like the integration that 99.9% of us had nothing to do with.

How is that being a jerk? Defending yourself and your coworkers
from a bitter prick that can't get on with his life?

I don’t agree that you are a SCAB. I agree with you on that.

Thank you. That we can agree on then.

BUT, Our union- I have no choice in saying it any other way- It was a big gun that was put to my head- Our union screwed us royally.

Well thats between you and YOUR union. I had nothing to do with what YOUR union did to you either.

And you what to know something, they screwed you too. As an employer any AA resumes that come across my desk are promptly trashed.

How is that screwing me? I am a Heavy Corporate Jet Captain for a Fortune 500 company making much more than when I was a S-80 Driver for AA. I don't want and will not be employed by you nor am I looking for employment. Big f**king deal.

In my ground school classes we talk about AA.

Good for you.

In fact the other day I was pointing out the “get there it is” and the Little Rock accident.

WOW. You sure are some nifty ground instructor! Why is this even directed at me? I wasn't even at AA when that happened.

Even at TWA we looked at many accidents- some were ours, most were yours.

Well it would stand to reason from a purely statistical standpoint that given the fact that AA was about 5 times the size of TWA there would be a much much greater chance for incidents/accidents. Don't you think?

So back off- you don’t have a dog in this fight.

When a moron like Mach8Forest starts calling all APA pilots SCABS I do have a dog in this fight. I will not back off.

I was furloughed OCT 02- Want to talk about what a great union APA is and why some could flow back and some got longer travel privileges? I know the obvious answer is the 2002 contract, but remember in the next years section 6 talks once they get rid of the call back with the next contract you and I will both be in the same boat. Great union APA, got to really love them.

I could care less what happens in the future. I could care less if I ever get called back to AA, because I am not going back. I have a first rate job at a Fortune 500 company that is making money hand over fist.

While I have gotten on with my life it looks like you will still be denying furloughed AA pilots a chance at a job while you complain about not getting back to AA sooner and talking about them in your lovely little ground school.

Sorry you continue to be so bitter about something I had nothing to do with.