US AIRWAYS Jackbones!

[Bill Nelson]

Just curious, do you US Airways jackbones really feel like you should have any realitive seniority at America West? (Regardless of the new name, these guys saved your asses. Do you really feel like you "deserve" any seniority based on date of hire?)

I don't have a dog in the fight, but it sure is hard to understand the mentalitly of "entittleship" that is going on over there when you would have been out of a job years ago if you weren't bailed out by someone.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Yawn....

 

[XTW]

It's a little early in the AM, but what the he11, I'm opening a beer for this one!

 

[Dogwood]

Just curious, do you US Airways jackbones really feel like you should have any realitive seniority at America West? (Regardless of the new name, these guys saved your asses. Do you really feel like you "deserve" any seniority based on date of hire?)

I don't have a dog in the fight, but it sure is hard to understand the mentalitly of "entittleship" that is going on over there when you would have been out of a job years ago if you weren't bailed out by someone.

It should go Date of Hire, with fences in place etc. You have no crystal ball to determine exactly where either pilot group would have ended up without the merger.

America West would have had a rough road ahead without the merger. You might say that the original U saved America West. You can spin it anyway you like.

The major players are the investors who are rolling the dice in the new company.

Relative seniority in the final product, should be the goal, no matter how you get there. The AWA pilots should not be screwed either.

It's hard for me to figure out how an America West pilot who has been with the company for 2 years, would go ahead of the U pilot with 20 + years.

Remember the future of America West was in question as well. That's why they wanted a partner.

Do you think the merger occured because America West just felt sorry for the U employees and wanted to save them? Or, because they really needed some quick growth to compete? Well?

When you go to the store, do you buy something to save it from losing its shelf life, or because you want or need it?

America West did not "save" U Airways. Together they have formed a new company that may or may not fit into the current market. The jury is still out on that one.

I wish them all the best of luck.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I don't have a dog in the fight, but it sure is hard to understand the mentalitly of "entittleship" that is going on over there .

I don't have a dog in this fight either, but I'm wondering how you got your attitude of "flamebaitmenship"????

 

[sandman2122]

It's all those years he (Willie/Bill Nelson) has been smoking pot............

on a side note, based on your arrogant remark I doubt you flew Buffs, F-22's and SR71's..................now where did I leave my keys to the Space Shuttle....

 

[XBOEINGDRVR]

NO Jacja** ... we should all be put below every last west pilot..... Your an idiot. take a look at merges in the past. You seem to think Airways was on their last hour in business. Get a life !!!!!!!!

 

[TWA Dude]

It should go Date of Hire, with fences in place etc.

I would have no problem going along with that if it weren't for the fact that DOH means 2/3 of the AWA list is stapled. We both "deserve" an integrated seniority number that fully respects our positions but it's plain to see with two "deserving" sides that it can't happen. A relative seniority integration seeks to keep everyone in their current status. I know that's not what you want but in light of current events it's reasonable.

 

[XBOEINGDRVR]

well said TWA dude, I agree

 

[Mach8Forest]

Just guessing but with his attitude I believe Mr Nelson is already a member of or should join the Scabs at APA.
Mach8Forest

 

[Black Hawk]

I would have no problem going along with that if it weren't for the fact that DOH means 2/3 of the AWA list is stapled. We both "deserve" an integrated seniority number that fully respects our positions but it's plain to see with two "deserving" sides that it can't happen. A relative seniority integration seeks to keep everyone in their current status. I know that's not what you want but in light of current events it's reasonable.

Those of us without dogs in the fight see this situation pretty clearly. No one should overly benefit or get overly hurt so whatever that takes is what needs to be done. One old saying that made sense to me is if everyone's a little pissed then they did a good job of integrating the lists. My guess is there will be a long transition period of some kind so no one benefits royally at their coworkers expense.

 

[m80drvr]

As always TWA Dude is the voice of reason. DOH is not "Fair" to AWA pilots just as stapeling is "unfair" to the USAir guys.

The active guys on the list should get slotted in at their relative seinority and the furloughed guys at the bottom. It sucks for the furloughed guys but unfortunately thats what being furloughed means. (I am furloughed from USAir also, and have two total furloughs, I know from whence I speak) Is it fair for an AWA guy to not move up the list for the next 6 years or so because all the airways furloughed guys are slotted in in front of them? I don't think so. I hear furloughed Airways guys talk about career expectations and it makes me sick to think they are still holding out for that A330 captain slot that they should be able to hold in 18 years FROM NOW. Give me a break, MOVE ON. No slam intended but while on furlough from a twice bankrupt carrier does not bode well for "career expectations", because at that point you have no career at that company. The upgrade at AWA was 6 years or so, with the addition of more Airbus, what happens to AWA's career expectations.

You cannot count on caree progression due to USAir's "massive" retirements enlight of the repeal of the age 60 rule. (I can't wait to see the class action lawsuit that the retired gouys are going to file to get their jobs back, that will be fun for all of us.)

DOH with fences is a joke. How high do you build the fences? How many years do they last ect, 10 years, 15 years? How bout the east guys that want to move west and the west guys that commute from the east?
Airways should keep the intl stuff for 10 years of so but everything else should be fair game. Large fences will just add anger and distrust between the pilot groups for years, which is exactly what mgt would like to see. Hell I flew with guys at airways still pissed off about the piedmot and psa mergers/ buy outs whatever you want to call them.. And I mean REALLY pissed off. dang man LET IT GO.

I'm not intending to flame or bait either side in this I'm just giving my 2 cents. DOH will destroy this pilot group just as stapeling will. Maybe that is what mgt is hoping for.

Since the two pilot groups cannot get along, it's out of our hands anyway.

Oh well good luck to all, I'm sure everyone below the top 10% will be pissed off on both sides no matter what happens

D

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

I think the two pilot groups can get along. IMHO its the vocal 5% on both sides that are being tools about it. The rest of us are just gonna wait and see. I really feel like its out of my hands at this point. Once the arbiter decides in Nov or Dec- that's it. End of story.

What I'd really like to see is a good contract come out of the combined group. USAir had an industry leading contract once and those guys remember how nice it was. Now, AWA has the better contract and hopefully we can improve upon it for both groups; maybe not getting back to the level that BenderGonzalez had in '99 (from another thread), but at least a step in that direction.

With that in mind, I believe the combined negotiating committee is doing a pretty good job towards that end, but as usual the company is being slow to respond.

 

[Pilotbob3]

whats a "jackbone"?

 

[Dangerkitty]

Just guessing but with his attitude I believe Mr Nelson is already a member of or should join the Scabs at APA.
Mach8Forest

Learn what a scab is junior.

No APA pilot has ever crossed a picket line during a strike at American Airlines.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

whats a "jackbone"?

A jackbone is kinda like a jagnut.



(speaking of jagnuts, is that smilie above really for "confused" or is it for "hair plugs")

 

[jetfo]

The voice of reason!

It should go Date of Hire, with fences in place etc. You have no crystal ball to determine exactly where either pilot group would have ended up without the merger.

America West would have had a rough road ahead without the merger. You might say that the original U saved America West. You can spin it anyway you like.

The major players are the investors who are rolling the dice in the new company.

Relative seniority in the final product, should be the goal, no matter how you get there. The AWA pilots should not be screwed either.

It's hard for me to figure out how an America West pilot who has been with the company for 2 years, would go ahead of the U pilot with 20 + years.

Remember the future of America West was in question as well. That's why they wanted a partner.

Do you think the merger occured because America West just felt sorry for the U employees and wanted to save them? Or, because they really needed some quick growth to compete? Well?

When you go to the store, do you buy something to save it from losing its shelf life, or because you want or need it?

America West did not "save" U Airways. Together they have formed a new company that may or may not fit into the current market. The jury is still out on that one.

I wish them all the best of luck.

On that note, what do you think should happen with the AAA furloughees? Do you include them in the relative seniority integration, staple them, or give them preferential hiring ?

While you're working on that, how are things going at JetBlue and what do you think the future is there?

 

[Mach8Forest]

What’s the difference between someone coming off the street and crossing a picket line (SCAB) as opposed to someone that uses its company resources and size to break another pilots union and take their Jets, routes, and seats? My name is not Junior and I call a spade a spade as I see it! SCAB is a sensitive word at AA isn’t it? Just look in the mirror my friends and find the definition. The USAir and AWA pilots have very dissimilar pilot seniorities yet watch them work out a fair equitable solution unlike your slaughtering of the best pilot group in the industry.
Mach8Forest

 

[Dangerkitty]

What’s the difference between someone coming off the street and crossing a picket line (SCAB) as opposed to someone that uses its company resources and size to break another pilots union and take their Jets, routes, and seats?

There is a big difference. APA didn't break your pilots Union. Once again you seem to be getting simple terms mixed up. When AMR bought TWA the APA was/and is the bargaining agent for the pilots on the AA senriority list. You could either join the APA or not. I am sure that you chose the latter.

Furthermore, APA did not take "your" jets, "your" routes, and "your" seats. They were bought and paid for by the profits generated by the labor of AMR Corporation. Furthermore, none of those things were "yours" they were owned by TWA which was in turn sold to AMR.

My name is not Junior and I call a spade a spade as I see it!

Call it whatever you want. It still doesn't make it correct.

SCAB is a sensitive word at AA isn’t it?

No, not really. It's just the incorrect use of the word by someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. (You)

Just look in the mirror my friends and find the definition.

Ok, just went and checked in the mirror. Still not a scab. Still furloughed as well.

The USAir and AWA pilots have very dissimilar pilot seniorities yet watch them work out a fair equitable solution unlike your slaughtering of the best pilot group in the industry.

Mach8Forest

Quit with the Fair and Equitable BS dude. If I hear that term one more time I am going to puke. Life happens and it dealt you a $hitty hand, just like it did me and 3000 other AA pilots with families. What makes you anymore important than me?

And for my "slaughtering" of the best pilot group in the industry. What in the hell are you talking about? You think I am the one who came up with this whole integration fiasco.

Too bad Don Carty didn't drop TWA like a bad habit when 9/11 hit. I guess then you would be much more happy.

 

[Mach8Forest]

Let me guess how long you were on the property misskittycat when the merger happened. Did you have One, maybe 2 years invested there?
I was flying Barcelona to Lisbon to JFK in 89 for TWA as my younger brother was learning to fly at MTSU south of Nashville. One of these young student friends of his with his private pilots license eventually 10+ years later was hired as you probably were at AA. He is still on the property as I went from the Captain seat to the street. I am truly sorry you are furloughed however this merger was a raping of one pilot group by another. It was APA not AA management that did it and of course the bean counters were glad as I was into six digits for income and your replacement for me was less than half that. Lucky for your association (not union) that skill and safety records were not the vehicle of our merger and seniority! Sadly AA and TWA pilots were close in seats and hire dates unlike UsAir and AWA pilots however they will have a fair and equitable outcome, watch.
Mach8Forest

 

[Dangerkitty]

Lucky for your association (not union) that skill and safety records were not the vehicle of our merger and seniority!

Oh, so now in addition to being SCABS APA pilots are not sufficient aviators as well. Is that what you are saying?

 

[AA717driver]

XTW--Throw me a beer! TC

 

[Dangerkitty]

Let me guess how long you were on the property misskittycat when the merger happened. Did you have One, maybe 2 years invested there?
I was flying Barcelona to Lisbon to JFK in 89 for TWA as my younger brother was learning to fly at MTSU south of Nashville. One of these young student friends of his with his private pilots license eventually 10+ years later was hired as you probably were at AA. He is still on the property as I went from the Captain seat to the street. I am truly sorry you are furloughed however this merger was a raping of one pilot group by another. It was APA not AA management that did it and of course the bean counters were glad as I was into six digits for income and your replacement for me was less than half that. Lucky for your association (not union) that skill and safety records were not the vehicle of our merger and seniority! Sadly AA and TWA pilots were close in seats and hire dates unlike UsAir and AWA pilots however they will have a fair and equitable outcome, watch.
Mach8Forest

Maybe back in 89 when you were this international stud flying around the world you could have brushed up on correct sentence structure, grammar, comma usage, punctuation, and the English language in general.

Either you are drunk or you have the writing ability of a 5th grader.

 

[pylut]

Wow, He's really got you there Mach.

kitty is part of one of the lowest and most corrupt pilot unions of all time. He's able to justify this crime of an integration.
Yet, he takes offense at your punctuation. Laughable!

dangerkitty you really missed your era. I can just picture you goose stepping along with the SS thinking to you yourself "wow, Hitlers punctuation and grammar is excellent"

 

[Mach8Forest]

Your correct kitty.
I had to take English as a second language at Embry Riddle with all the foreigners. (Not really but should have). Its not one of my strong points I will admit but at least I have morals and culture from one of Americas safest Airlines. Can you say the same?
I was a teenage Flight Instructor kitty, and as a young child I laid on my back in the corn fields of Michigan and looked at the trials of jets going overhead from LAX to NY and dreamed of being a TWA pilot. I realized that dream and then APA happened. You should be ashamed of yourself for posting anything on the web if you are truly an APA member trying to justify what you have done to the Pilots of TWA. Your group has been the example (joke) of many training departments including TWA. Are you really a pilot or a Flight Attendant on a pilot’s site? Look in the mirror again you *************************( Moderator I meant that as a reference to kitty Cat) and say that APA pilots are not scabs. I am sorry that we have hijacked the merger of AWA and UsAir’s topic but that’s what happens when SCABS present themselves and post. Good luck to you all at UsAir as I expect the AWA guys and gals will be most fair as you merge your diverse group.
Mach8Forest

 

[Mach8Forest]

Kitty Cat
The question in my post was how many years do you have invested?
Mach8Forest

 

[Dogwood]

On that note, what do you think should happen with the AAA furloughees? Do you include them in the relative seniority integration, staple them, or give them preferential hiring ?

While you're working on that, how are things going at JetBlue and what do you think the future is there?

Not sure about the furloughees. That's a tough one. Maybe the ones that took the recall on the first invitation, should be included. But, those that bypassed the recall should be on another list. I don't know. My guess is that the furloughees will be stapled. The company would rather do that so they don't come back. 1st year pay is cheaper than 15 year pay for them.

Things seem fine at JB. Sure a few growing pains at the present time, and a few miscalculations, but it feels good at the moment. Time will tell.

Thanks for asking,

DW

 

[Dangerkitty]

You should be ashamed of yourself for posting anything on the web if you are truly an APA member trying to justify what you have done to the Pilots of TWA.

What I have done to the pilots of TWA? Yeah, as a junior S-80 FO I really had alot to do with it. Look you ignorant d0uchebag I had nothing to do with the integration nor the buyout of TWA. I wish it had never happened.

Yet unlike you I have gotten on with my life. So much so that I am never going back to AA.

Unfortunantely, you can't get over your bitterness so you make snide comments about ALL of the APA pilots based on what the BOD thought was best for it's members during the integration.

Your group has been the example (joke) of many training departments including TWA.

Really? How so? I would love some examples.

Can you state these various training departments?

Are you really a pilot or a Flight Attendant on a pilot’s site?

Uh, if you will look under my avatar you will see that I am indeed a pilot.

Look in the mirror again you *************************( Moderator I meant that as a reference to kitty Cat) and say that APA pilots are not scabs.

Well since the APA has never had pilots cross a picket line I am going to say that no the APA pilots are not scabs. How this term SCAB keeps confusing you is beyond me.

I am sorry that we have hijacked the merger of AWA and UsAir’s topic but that’s what happens when SCABS present themselves and post.

Well again you are wrong again but at least you are consistent. I have never crossed a picket line so where you come off calling me a scab is beyond me.
If that makes you feel better then fine call me a scab. It only shows how bitter you are and the fact that you have no life outside of your pathetic career.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Kitty Cat
The question in my post was how many years do you have invested?
Mach8Forest

Invested in AA? Three years. Does that make me more or less of a scab?

 

[Dangerkitty]

kitty is part of one of the lowest and most corrupt pilot unions of all time.

Oh yeah, becuase ALPA is a bunch of sweet innocent choir boys.

He's able to justify this crime of an integration.

I am not justifying anything. I am saying that I had nothing to do with it. It is this integration that got me furloughed.

Furthermore, APA did what unions are supposed to do. Protect its members.
If you guys are SO interested in fairness then why dont you spend your time trying to help the TWA Flight Attendants? They all got stapled. It wasn't pretty on your side but at least you still have 500 or so ex TWA pilots still flying airplanes for AA.

dangerkitty you really missed your era. I can just picture you goose stepping along with the SS thinking to you yourself "wow, Hitlers punctuation and grammar is excellent"

Is that suppose to be funny or a put down? Because you failed very badly at both attempts.