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US AIRWAYs changes

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Jun 4, 2002
If the deals go through, will all three usairways express WO's start to get jets or has just PSA been selected ( i am asking about alleghany and piedmont's plan)
Smoking Man,

Do you know what in effect are the changes in your new TA that will allow you to get jets? Pay rates on the jet, and what concessions you had to give in order to get the jet rate. Also, has Duane Woerth put his stamp of approval on the final language. I ask the last question because all of us at CCair have been waiting for two months for DW to sign our contract. He says that it would hurt the industry, but if everyone needs to give concessions in order to get some U RJ's it seems to me that we set a standard and not lowered it. Hopefully you guys fall under whatever ALPA's master plan is for the regionals because it appears that CCair does not. Good Luck. J32
Jetscream32 wrote: He ( D.W.) says that it would hurt the industry, but if everyone needs to give concessions in order to get some U RJ's it seems to me that we set a standard and not lowered it.

Jetscream, I know your pain.
What I do not undestand is: how you can claim that your new 90 seater payscale ( that is less than several others 50 seat payscales ) is not lowering a standar?

Could you or someone else in the know explain what exactly is going on at CC Air. I was personally unaware of a 90 seat pay rate. What is DW affraid of, the lowering the bar on the pay rates, or the fact that you guys might just get them. Didn't ALPA help negotiate this deal? Has he asked for something to be done, or is he just playing tacticts? Additionally, what is the current status concerning CC Air, Mesa, and U. Thanks in advance. Tim.
Hey Tim,

Things at CCAir are a total disaster. We are getting it from behind from both ALPA and Mgmt. It is a very long story and I don't feel like rehashing everything, but here are the( very long) highlights.

Mesa buys CC (CCAIR) 3.5 yrs ago. CC has just signed a new industry leading (at the time and in regards mostly to work rules) contract. JO offers jets for concessions and ALPA says no. We start to slowly shrink.

Fast forward 3 yrs. CC still shrinking. Down to 18 airplanes from 32. Mgmt still threatening, ALPA still saying hold on, they are bluffing. ( It is important to understand that at this point, the Mesa MEC is pushing hard for us to hold strong so he can use your contract in there up coming negotiations. Also remember that ALPA always takes care of the large group before the small.)

This spring, things come to a head. Mesa negotiations are about to start and CC still has the good contract. Mgmt threatens to shut down and JO starts replacing our flying with Mesa and AMW. A TA goes to vote and loses by TWO. This is where the fun begins. NATIONAL APLA takes over our negotiations from our MEC and negotiates a new TA. Our MEC had NO part in the new TA. We were all told at the road shows that if ratified Woerth would sign it. We were told that by a NATIONAL ALPA rep. The new TA had two jet rates and a few other changes but we lose our one year NO FURLOUGH CLAUSE (70% of us are now on furlough) and some stock options. (and even funnier thing is that National ALPA said that Woerth would not sign the first TA b/c it did not provide any job protection, what a joke alpa is!! ) Anyway, I am getting off base, the second TA was ratified by 72%. That was the end of April. Woerth won't sign it. A CC pilot has sued but APLA got the trial (scheduled for last Friday) postponed indefinitely. We have 3 Dash 8's and 39 pilots left.

There are a couple schools of thought on why Woerth wont sign the TA.

1. The top jet rate goes to (I think) 85,000 lbs. This would allow us to fly of CRJ 900 (85 seats) but not the new ERJ 900. (The real fact is APLA National messed up and over looked this in negotiations)

2. National wont sign the TA b/c it will hurt Mesa's negotiations (remember big guys over little guys is ALPA's motto)

3. Woerth doesn't want CC to get there foot in the door flying Jets at US before he can work out deals with the WO's. (the WO's are a lot BIGGER then CC) This theory has a lot of support in CC mgmt.

The fact is EVERYONE dealing with US is going to take concessions. CC only fly's for US. The new TA at PSA is rumored to be very similar to our TA. Is PSA going to bring down the industry? Is Woerth going to sing their concessionary contract? How about US Airways? They are taking 28% pay cuts, massive work rule concessions and are doing it for 8 years. (Much larger concessions then we gave) Do you think Woerth will sign that TA? Do you think it will hurt the industry? The answer to both those questions to YES! BUT, US is BIG and ALPA loves the MONEY!!!!!!!! (ALPA's motto "SHOW ME THE MONEY!!) CC brings little money, hence CC suffers.

Those gentlemen, are the facts. -Bean

In the first TA that was shot down by 2 votes there was no difference in the pay rates on jets, just one jet rate. In the second the difference was only a 7.5% captain override on anything larger than 50 seats up to max. weight of 85,000 (which by the way was negotiated by ALPA National V.P.) If anyone wants the full scoop as to what has happened in the past few months send me a PM with your email address and I will send you an article about it. The 90 seat rate doesn't even apply if all of the majors scope out the 90's like U is doing. The big problem with the pay rate on the 90's (yes is sucks) is that Mesa Air Group is the only regional to my knowledge with options.
Seems pretty accurate Beamtown and Jetscream.

Just want to add one a cople of points, Alpa mec for Mesa and CCair has been fighting for a single / merged pilot seniority list from day one. The Management do not seem to want it.

A few weeks ago Mesa Air Group got a single carrier status. So Mesa, CCair and Air midwest is recogniced as one single group for collecting bargaining purposes.
Personally, I belive that is the reason for the Judge postponed the lawsuit.

I am convinced though, that the only reason D.W. does not want to sign it, is the very, very low 90 seat rate.
AWA does not have a scope to prevent 90 seater from being operated by another company and Mesa Airgroup has a written contract to operate them on the Express side.
J.O. wants Freedom air to fly them ( for a rate even HIGHER than CCairs ) to avoid the U scope clause, but not Mesa Airlines. Not even if the scope preventing Mesa AL from flying them is removed. Why? Mesa is in negotiating a new contract and the company management do not seem to want to bargain to hard.......

With D.W's approval of the new TA I will guess CCAir would start flying them on the AWA side on a very low rate..Hmmm,.let's see........Tomorrow!
90 seat rates

If what you guys are saying is true, then why the heck hasent DW insisted on higher pay for the aircraft in question. My personal feeling is that it is listed to begin with. I have to go with the above poster who stated that ALPA National missed this when building the contract. I don't think that they really want the aircraft listed, period.
Additionally, with CC Air loosing money every day this TA is not approved by ALPA, I highly dought that they (management) are in agreement to what ALPA is doing. I hope things get better soon, because the whole regional industry is going to explode and ALPA is going to be left behined saying "no fair! no fair! Hey, wait for me! Mom!! :rolleyes:
My opinion: I think Duane wishes his hindsight was 20/20. I think if CC only had payscales up to the 50 seat SJ's they would be in full swing now (and thriving due to recent U events). He doesn't want to be held responsible for turning his fellow DC-9 drivers at NWA into "Small Jet" pilots during his presidency... thats a big bargaining tool for the majors. Also, with a payscale in place for the 90 seater it makes the fighting on only one side of the fence instead of both sides, just the scope clauses at the majors. My opinion comes from the news I have read, and reading JO's posts on the freemesaairlines forum, where he often rants about the "anti-comepetitive, illegal scope clauses" which he may be testing the legality of with some other CEO's. Thus Jo's backup plan for CC flying 90 seaters (with ALPA's blessing) is Freedom flying 90 seaters (not needing ALPA's blessing.)

Back to the original post
"If the deals go through, will all three usairways express WO's start to get jets or has just PSA been selected ( i am asking about alleghany and piedmont's plan)"

As of right now nobody knows.... however considering the recent loan guarantees I think the news will come fast. ALG has put 61 pilots on the street up to now. Another poster hit the nail on the head, its all about J4J's. I agree, I think Seigal is humoring the pilots and counting on ALG/PDT to hold firm.. HE DOESN'T WANT TO SPEND HIS LOAN DOLLARS PAYING ALL HIS FURLOUGHED MAINLINE PILOTS AT THE RATES AS PERSCRIBED... he wants the jets flown at the most cost effective area of the operation.. another guess on my part!!!
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