US Air?

[CRJDog]

I think you have a very legitimate point here. Using turboprops to fly short hauls around the Northeast has played an important role in the US Airways system, but the demand for it is diminishing. It would probably be very difficult for US Airways to sell operators like PSA, Piedmont, or Allegheny even if they wanted to. I personally don't think that they would WANT to at this point, since the low cost of operation with these carriers versus the mainline is probably helping to keep them alive. I still think US can make it, but its going to require some downsizing and possibly restructuring to change their targeted market.

PSA will be all jet by Sep 7. It would not be hard to sell PSA since they an asset not a liability.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

PSA will be all jet by Sep 7. It would not be hard to sell PSA since they an asset not a liability.

Again it will go back to who would want to buy the entire PSA operation. What value would it really have to anyone? As stated previously, RJ's don't have the highest market value right now either. I personally think they are being over-produced, but thats another story for another thread. Again, if downsizing is going to be done and assets are going to be sold, it will most likely be those assets which can be sold easily and have the least value to the everyday operation of US Airways. I don't think PSA is one of them. These are just my thoughts and opinions. Anyone with more inside information or economic experience feel free to correct me.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

SkyBoy, you are correct. An item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it (Econ 101 again) and I don't see any buyers out there for much of anything. Certainly not RJ's, which have an extremely low return on investment and of which there will be a pretty high number getting a tan soon.

Again, why would anyone else want PSA, and who could pay for it? SWA doesn't use regional affiliates, and they're the only ones with any money (and they're too cheap to buy anything anyway). Besides, I don't think anyone else would want those routes.

The only things US has that have any value would be the shuttle, BOS terminal/gates/operation, LGA and DCA slots and some int'l route authorities. An asset sale wouldn't net them much, and may trigger some loan covenants anyway.

As much as I hate to say it (and I really do) US is done and many of our bretheren will be unemployed very shortly. It saddens me, but a price must be paid for extremely poor business decisions and poor career planning.

 

[lowecur]

UAIR reprieve

Looks like they may have enough to meet the covenants if the FA's and IAM's approve the $68M deferral to the defined benefit plans. It will be close based on what kind of numbers show up on Sept 30th.

The procedes from a possible Shuttle/slots/gates sale have already been promised to GECAS to keep the 170's and CRJ's coming. The cash part of the deal is limited to $125M, with a note for the remaining money. The total value of this deal is estimated to be around $400M, which would value the note at $275. This will only be used as a last resort if they decide to go 11.

US Airways Seeks Pension Payments Delay
Monday August 16, 5:32 pm ET
By Matthew Barakat, AP Business Writer US Airways Seeks to Delay Pension Payments to Conserve Cash, Avoid Second Bankruptcy Trip


ARLINGTON, Va. (AP) -- US Airways Group Inc., which is desperately seeking new labor deals with its employees to avoid a second trip into bankruptcy, said Monday it is seeking to conserve cash by delaying required payments to its machinists' and flight attendants' pension plans.

The airline said it would ask the Internal Revenue Service for permission to defer about $68 million in funds for those plans, making those payments over the next five years, rather than the next 18 months.

The airline said the move, if approved, would not affect the monthly payments due to pensioners.

In a memo to employees, the airline said only the machinists and flight attendants are being targeted because they are the only two unions that still have a defined-benefit pension plan. Other unions, including the pilots, have a defined contribution, 401(k)-style plan.

Joe Tiberi, a spokesman for the International Association of Machinists, said union lawyers are still reviewing the airline's proposal, but that it does not appear to violate the company's collective bargaining agreement and will not affect union members' benefits.

"I don't see any cause for great alarm," Tiberi said.

 

[OhDannyBoy]

I just have to ask...why are companies like Piedmont and PSA continuing to interview and hire new pilots?

 

[blzr]

Piedmont has a horrendous attrition rate, and PSA has low pay. Hard to find pilots willing to work for either regional right now.

 

[StarChecker]

As much as I hate to say it (and I really do) US is done and many of our bretheren will be unemployed very shortly. It saddens me, but a price must be paid for extremely poor business decisions and poor career planning.

After flying with quite a few J4J guys....I have to disagree with blaming their "career planning". When these guys were hired at Airways(in 1988 for some)....it was THE place to be. They were hiring like crazy, they had 400 Airbuses on order...anyone would have made the same choice. I don't see how blaming them for not seeing 15 years into the future is appropriate.

It's been a real eye-opener flying with these guys. A good dose of reality.

 

[Nova]

SkyBoy, you are correct. An item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it (Econ 101 again) and I don't see any buyers out there for much of anything. Certainly not RJ's, which have an extremely low return on investment and of which there will be a pretty high number getting a tan soon.

Again, why would anyone else want PSA, and who could pay for it? SWA doesn't use regional affiliates, and they're the only ones with any money (and they're too cheap to buy anything anyway). Besides, I don't think anyone else would want those routes.

If an airline like PSA was liquidated I doubt they would try to sell it as a whole but piece it out. I agree that RJ's have a limited audience here in the US but they could easily find a seller abroad. Plus if nothing else, parking them in the desert is a possibility as they don't cost money when they don't fly. US is looking to save money, not necessarily raise money. They wouldn't have to sell their gates or infrastructure, just top paying rent on them and let each go abandoned.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

After flying with quite a few J4J guys....I have to disagree with blaming their "career planning". When these guys were hired at Airways(in 1988 for some)....it was THE place to be. They were hiring like crazy, they had 400 Airbuses on order...anyone would have made the same choice. I don't see how blaming them for not seeing 15 years into the future is appropriate.

It's been a real eye-opener flying with these guys. A good dose of reality.

I disagree, and seeing that I was flying back then while you were likely watching Saturday morning cartoons, I'll go with my observations.

It wasn't hard for anyone who could actually read an annual report, or understood anything about starting or operating a business to see that US was going to be struggling eventually. Assuming a large debt load combined with a limited route structure made it fairly obvious to anyone willing to see outside the box that something was going to happen.

Am I going to claim that I saw this happen 15 years ago, of course not. But even then US was concentrating on the NE corridor, which I felt would only support so much. There was nothing diffeentiating them from any other comapny, and that's dangerous in business.

Don't be fooled. All of you guys who think that ordering loads of new Airbii and hiring like crazy thus making a company the "it" place, have only yourself to blame. Does this mean that ATA was the hot place to be four years ago? What would you say about those guys now?

Besides, how many of those guys that you flew with were honest enough to look in the mirror. If they're like most of us flyers, then they likely feel they did no wrong, it's all management's fault.

 

[OhDannyBoy]

Will PSA/Piedmont New Hires ever make it to training?

 

[N8Dogg]

I disagree, and seeing that I was flying back then while you were likely watching Saturday morning cartoons, I'll go with my observations.

It wasn't hard for anyone who could actually read an annual report, or understood anything about starting or operating a business to see that US was going to be struggling eventually. Assuming a large debt load combined with a limited route structure made it fairly obvious to anyone willing to see outside the box that something was going to happen.

Am I going to claim that I saw this happen 15 years ago, of course not. But even then US was concentrating on the NE corridor, which I felt would only support so much. There was nothing diffeentiating them from any other comapny, and that's dangerous in business.

Don't be fooled. All of you guys who think that ordering loads of new Airbii and hiring like crazy thus making a company the "it" place, have only yourself to blame. Does this mean that ATA was the hot place to be four years ago? What would you say about those guys now?

Besides, how many of those guys that you flew with were honest enough to look in the mirror. If they're like most of us flyers, then they likely feel they did no wrong, it's all management's fault.

Jungle Jet,

In 20 years what airlines WILL be at the top of the heap? Which ones should be avoided? Can I get that in writing? Maybe predicting the future is not so easy. If you do have the answers to these questions I am all ears, otherwise cut the USAir guys/gals a little slack. They made what they felt was the best decision at the time. Just my $0.02.

 

[SRJ]

If an airline like PSA was liquidated I doubt they would try to sell it as a whole but piece it out. I agree that RJ's have a limited audience here in the US but they could easily find a seller abroad. Plus if nothing else, parking them in the desert is a possibility as they don't cost money when they don't fly. US is looking to save money, not necessarily raise money. They wouldn't have to sell their gates or infrastructure, just top paying rent on them and let each go abandoned.
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How will they be able to liquidate when USAir does not own any of these RJ's yet? I thought that GE owns them until they are paid in full. Wouldn't Shuttle go first?

 

[lowecur]

How will they be able to liquidate when USAir does not own any of these RJ's yet? I thought that GE owns them until they are paid in full. Wouldn't Shuttle will go first?

If you read the 10Q, the monies from the sale of the Shuttle and other assets have already been promised to GECAS for the continued delivery of the 170's and CRJ's. This pretty much assures the continued existance of PSA and MDA at the expense of the other assets. This sale will only take place if the airline fails to meet covenants set by the ATSB. Possible gates and slots to be sold could be a limited number in LGA, BOS, and DCA.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

JungleJet,

Poor career planning? Come on. NONE OF US knows whether the decisions we made are correct until the day we turn 60.

Your statement was disgraceful.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

JungleJet,

Poor career planning? Come on. NONE OF US knows whether the decisions we made are correct until the day we turn 60.

Your statement was disgraceful.

My friend (and colleague) I feel for the situation that you are in, but please do not direct your bitterness towards me. I am not responsible for your situation, ultimately you are; regardless of the greediness or poor planning on the part of management. You made the decisions, you are to blame.

Does this mean I don't feel for any of my colleagues facing this? Of course it doesn't, hence why I make a concerted effort to hire furloughed pilots for my operation, and why I do my dam_dest to get them jobs at other corporate/fractional operators. How many furloughed colleagues have you ever given a job to? I'm at nearly 200 over the course of the past 8 years, and that number is increasing this very month.

I'll tell you what's really disgracefull, and you can take this for what you will. The absurd union created/enforced seniority number BS that forces someone to stake their entire future on one company, becasue you lack the ability to go somewhere else (and start at the bottom again) when the fit hits the shan. It's disgraceful that 10,000 hr 73 captains are forced to take JforJ jobs in a throwaway Brazillian jet becasue of where they rank on the scale. It's disgraceful that someone with your experience and training is stuck flying for an outfit like Comair. You don't deserve that, but being enslaved to a stupid number ultimately causes it. Not that ALPO, er ALPA will change it becasue they've successfully brainwashed their membership ("...management will screw you...management will screw you...Frank Lorenzo...Frank Lorenzo...").

You can hate me for what I say, but you can't argue the reality of it even if you dislike the harshness.

 

[Jmmccutc]

They've been talking about downsizing PIT for months. It's no longer a hub, but a "focus city" (I think that's the term, at least). If that article is a revelation to you, you've not been paying attention to what USAir's been up to as of late.

KPIT just took another blow by USair, more flights (international) were just cut...not sure how much that will affect things i'm not really in the game, i just watch the news and learn what i can...

 

[Nova]

I think I just saw that they cut PIT-CAK. How does that affect the PSA route structure?

 

[eaglefly]

"An outfit like Comair" ?

"A throwaway brazilian jet " ?

Jungle, apparently to you, these are "descriptions" of losers and faliures in the aviation industry (unworhty of a "real" airline pilot).

How myopic, demented and sad (all to common though).

If I were to strike up a convertstaion with you at say, Oshkosh and tell you that I fly a Hawker, Lear or GIII for 100K/year with 16-18 days off per month and health and travel bennies, you'd probably consider me with at least some respect and not a "loser".

If I said I had the same pay and benefits but told you I flew an Embraer for a regional, well then suddenly I'm "persona non grata".

A pilot WORTHY of professionalism and respect (both in and OUTSIDE the cockpit) DEMONSTRATES both the capability to :

1.) Evaluate situtuations and make RATIONAL determinations and actions based on them.

2.) Recognize that they (regardless of experience) are learning about not only flying airplanes, but about the realities of AVIATION throughout their career.

Your post impies you are capable of neither.

Thankfully, I'll never have to worry about placing my loved ones in your care.

That attitude is what I've been educating my students about since 1984.

I've downloaded your post to include in my dossier of what I try to teach my students (airline bound and not) of what to avoid developing in themselves as they progress in aviation.

For that I thank you.

I need the "good, bad and ugly" to help me steer not only their pilot skills BUT THEIR HEADS in the right (professional) direction.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

"An outfit like Comair" ?

"A throwaway brazilian jet " ?

Jungle, apparently to you, these are "descriptions" of losers and faliures in the aviation industry (unworhty of a "real" airline pilot).

How myopic, demented and sad (all to common though).

If I were to strike up a convertstaion with you at say, Oshkosh and tell you that I fly a Hawker, Lear or GIII for 100K/year with 16-18 days off per month and health and travel bennies, you'd probably consider me with at least some respect and not a "loser".

If I said I had the same pay and benefits but told you I flew an Embraer for a regional, well then suddenly I'm "persona non grata".

A pilot WORTHY of professionalism and respect (both in and OUTSIDE the cockpit) DEMONSTRATES both the capability to :

1.) Evaluate situtuations and make RATIONAL determinations and actions based on them.

2.) Recognize that they (regardless of experience) are learning about not only flying airplanes, but about the realities of AVIATION throughout their career.

Your post impies you are capable of neither.

Thankfully, I'll never have to worry about placing my loved ones in your care.

That attitude is what I've been educating my students about since 1984.

I've downloaded your post to include in my dossier of what I try to teach my students (airline bound and not) of what to avoid developing in themselves as they progress in aviation.

For that I thank you.

I need the "good, bad and ugly" to help me steer not only their pilot skills BUT THEIR HEADS in the right (professional) direction.

Oh my God, what is this, third grade?

First off, for someone with that level of training and experience, flying for Comair would have to be a letdown. If it isn't, perhaps one would need a little more ambition. You think that furloughedagain dreamed of flying an underpowered, stretched business jet between CVG and CMH 12 times a day while he was earning his PPL? I doubt it, and I respect him/her enough to be candid about it. You want to be all sunshine and roses, go right ahead.

Secondly, the Embraer product is vastly inferior and was clearly designed to be an aircraft with a shorter lifespan then others. They did this to save money and allow a lower purcahse price. This is news to you? I thought it was common knowledge in the industry. Perhaps you aren't as informed as you claim, but those who can't do teach, right?

Thirdly, I've never judged a single person here or anywhere else on the basis of who they flew for, what they make or what they fly. We're all professional pilots, whether you watch the autopilot on an Airbus or tow banners or instruct. You can try to make that up in order to paint me as something else, but you'd be the fool here, not I.

Now as far as your silly rationalisation that you used to denigrate me goes, I wholeheartedly agree (despite the fact that you were quoting a text to me, but I'd imagine you are quite used to that). However, your premise that you based your judgements on are false, therefore so is your conclusion. You take two comments out of a couple of dozen posts and decide that I'm both irrational and unwilling to learn (da_n, what was the point of earning that MS for at age 49?)?

You sure I'm the irrational one here professor?

p.s. Are you also sure that you've never entrusted your loved ones to my care in my over 30 years of flying? Even more positive that you don't know me?

 

[FurloughedAgain]

No, this was not the career I dreamed I would have. You are correct.

But Comair did offer me a job at a time when jobs were few and far between. They treat me well and comply with the contract -- even if the payrates are a little low.

I do not lack ambition. I am constantly looking for opportunities which will benefit my career and, more importantly, will allow me to support my family.

I believe that nowadays I am a little more selective than I was in the past. I realized that moving around the country chasing yet-another aviation job is no way to live, and is not fair to my wife. I am not saying that I wont move. But I won't move for the heck of it.

Is that poor career planning? Perhaps.

When I was hired by US Airways I had just been laid off from AirTran. Chautauqua had hired me as a Jetstream first officer. (CHQ, at the time, had only one codeshare and not a single jet.)

Was I victim of poor career planning? Not at all. I made the best decision I could at the time with the information that I had available.

Should I have immediately begun seeking employment elsewhere after being hired by USAir? Why? They were hiring 100 pilots a month. By 09/11 I had over 1000 people junior to me. I did not see any benefit to seeking employment elsewhere. And if I did, where would I seek employment?

Prior to 09/11 it would not have been Jetblue or Frontier -- of that I can assure you. I would have pursued Delta, United, or American... and had I been successful I would find myself in the same position that I am today.

I resent the implication that I am victim of my own poor planning. I made my decisions and I am more than willing to take ownership of them. You won't find me complaining about my lifestyle at Comair. But rather, you'll find me very grateful that they gave me the opportunity to keep flying while I develop a plan of attack for the rest of my career.

My story is one of only 1800 at US Airways. We all made the choices that we believed to be right at the time. We took a chance on the "brass ring".

Do I have regrets? Sure. But hindsight is 20/20.

I respect you for taking the initiative to hire furloughed pilots. I certainly hope that by placing their faith in you they are looking 15+ years into the future, and making the correct choices for their careers.

Regards.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Look my friend, your career path sounds like mine back in the day, and like many thousands of our colleagues. I didn't mean to single you out for denigration or make you some sort of poster child for bad decision making. Frankly, you could have done far worse than Comair, and I respect why you made that call.

I'm not sure any of my people are necessarily placing their long-term faith in me. The majority of people I've beem fortunate to be able to hire have seen us (rightly so) as a short-term solution while they search for something else. I support them in that, even going as far as arranging interviews for my guys and giving them all the free time they need to go to them. While we do have several long-term people, our compensation simply can't compare with what they can get from even AirTran. Plus, I'm sure flying smaller biz jets and high performance piston twins is nowhere near as glamourous as flying the heavy iron.

I also heartedly encourage our people to diversify themselves, their qualifications and finances. Don't bet everything on an employer, have things to fall back on. I can only hope they get the message.

Godspeed.