Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

UPS: No 'significant' cargo flights from DHL until 2009

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

rotor&wing

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Posts
309
UPS: No 'significant' cargo flights from DHL until 2009

UPS says it needs an agreement first then work can begin on a new operational plan for Wilmington hub.

By John Nolan
Staff Writer

Sunday, August 03, 2008
One of the big questions about DHL's proposal to hire United Parcel Service to fly its express delivery packages nationwide is how soon it will start taking away jobs from Wilmington, from where the ABX Air and ASTAR Air Cargo airlines now fly DHL's U.S. cargo.
Ohio officials estimate that a DHL shift to UPS will cost at least 8,000 jobs at DHL's Wilmington air freight hub, a major regional employer. A UPS spokesman said it could be "well into next year" before any changes are noticeable.
DHL said on May 28 that it hoped to work out a contract with UPS within three months and to start making changes in DHL's delivery network beginning later this year.
But that timetable may be unrealistic, because of the complexities of negotiating a deal and putting it into effect, UPS spokesman Norman Black said. UPS is unlikely to begin flying significant amounts of DHL cargo until well into 2009, Black said in a telephone interview last week from his Atlanta office.
"Bottom line is, we expect to be able to negotiate an agreement by the end of this year," Black said. "We, as a vendor, can't build a new operational plan for them until we've got an agreement, until they share information with us about their network and their package flows."
Lt. Gov. Lee Fisher said DHL hasn't given Ohio any new information about the timetable for the proposed deal with UPS.
Fisher made a personal visit to the U.S. Department of Justice in Washington on July 10 to explain Ohio's position that a DHL deal with its rival UPS would reduce competition in the U.S. express delivery market and potentially violate antitrust laws designed to promote competitive markets. If regulators agree, the federal government could join Ohio in a possible antitrust lawsuit against DHL, or Ohio could go it alone under the state's own antitrust law, Fisher said.
Fisher said Justice Department officials told him they had started collecting information about the proposed DHL-UPS deal, but could not start any antitrust investigation until DHL and UPS have a deal in place.
"We are being relentless in our efforts to explore how we can stop this transaction, on multiple fronts," Fisher said.
Ohio would be willing to work with DHL on ways to help reduce its operating costs, but only if the company backs away from the UPS deal and commits to staying in Wilmington, Fisher said. DHL has said it is committed to a deal with UPS.
With the Bush administration scheduled to relinquish power in January 2009, Ohio officials have covered their bases by also bringing their concerns about DHL and the Wilmington jobs to the attention of both major-party presidential candidates, Fisher said. Republican John McCain plans to go to Wilmington in early August for a campaign trip to DHL. Democrat Barack Obama recently met with Wilmington's mayor and workers at DHL.
Ohio has also asked the U.S. Department of Transportation to consider using its authority, independent of an antitrust case, to stop the proposed UPS-DHL deal on grounds it would have negative effect on the U.S. shipping market. Ohio is awaiting responses from both federal agencies.
DHL and UPS say there is no antitrust issue and no need for any government approval. They say it would be a customer-vendor arrangement, similar to DHL's current contracts under which ABX Air and ASTAR Air Cargo fly DHL packages nightly from Wilmington. Replacing ABX and ASTAR with UPS would shift the cargo sorting and flying work to UPS' hub at Louisville, Ky.
DHL projects a $1 billion loss on its U.S. cargo operations this year, but says it needs to continue operating in the United States as a key part of its global delivery network. DHL has forecast that hiring UPS would reduce DHL's U.S. losses to $900 million in 2009, $500 million in 2010 and $300 million in 2011.
DHL said it would also save money by reducing its U.S. delivery network capacity.
"The purpose of our restructuring plan is to build a stronger foundation for sustained operations in the U.S.," Jonathan Baker, a DHL public relations representative, wrote in an e-mailed answer to a reporter's questions. "To do this, a new operating model is required — one that is better matched to the current economy and existing volumes.
"Both rising fuel prices and the downturn in the U.S. economy have had a significant impact on our operations and on the nature and timing of our restructuring plans," Baker wrote.
Ohio's support for DHL in Wilmington
Here is Ohio's accounting of its direct funding contributions in recent years to support expansion and improvements at DHL's Wilmington air freight hub:
Job retention tax credit, valued at $66 million.
Job creation tax credit, 90 percent for five years and 70 percent for 10 years, valued at $13 million.
Rapid outreach grant, up to $2 million.
Training grant, up to $2 million.
Road improvement grant, $1 million.
Dayton-Montgomery County Port Authority sold $270 million in bonds in support of the hub improvement.
The Ohio Department of Transportation is building a $99 million highway bypass project designed to support regional economic department. The project's initial emphasis was DHL's needs, but the state says the new route is still needed to reduce truck traffic through Wilmington and noise in residential neighborhoods. Construction is to be complete by early 2011.
Source: Ohio Department of Development

Contact this reporter at (937) 225-2242 or [email protected].
 
"We are being relentless in our efforts to explore how we can stop this transaction, on multiple fronts," Fisher said.


Reminds me of the movie "Fatal Attraction". You Astar pilots are going to court to force your ex-girlfriend to still be your sweetheart?

What if you're successful? I can't imagine DHL continuing to accept $1 BILLION in losses annually in the US. I'd guess their Plan B is to fold their US operation and by default forfeit all their US business to FedEx and UPS. If so, how do the Astar pilots come out any better?
 
Reminds me of the movie "Fatal Attraction". You Astar pilots are going to court to force your ex-girlfriend to still be your sweetheart?

What if you're successful? I can't imagine DHL continuing to accept $1 BILLION in losses annually in the US. I'd guess their Plan B is to fold their US operation and by default forfeit all their US business to FedEx and UPS. If so, how do the Astar pilots come out any better?

Fold it MON!!!! Just PAY ME and let me LEAVE!!!
 
New timeline: Contract signed in 2009, DOJ filing shortly afterwards. UPS/DHL compelled to open all the books by subpoena......then the fun begins!
 
Reminds me of the movie "Fatal Attraction". You Astar pilots are going to court to force your ex-girlfriend to still be your sweetheart?

What if you're successful? I can't imagine DHL continuing to accept $1 BILLION in losses annually in the US. I'd guess their Plan B is to fold their US operation and by default forfeit all their US business to FedEx and UPS. If so, how do the Astar pilots come out any better?

Troll Alert
 
Troll Alert

To defend BBB, I think he has a valid point. I'm not trying to be incendiary, but what will happen if this deal falls through? Everyone is quick to jump on the "bash UPS" bandwagon, but truthfully, has anyone contemplated the alternative? So, deal falls through with UPS. They now sign up ________ . (you fill in the blank) It could be ABX/ASTAR, or it could be someone else.

If you look back at my posts on this subject, I'm very sympathetic to your plight. I've been furloughed 3 times in 5 years. There truthfully was no option to go back, so it felt like my company just got shut down. Well, actually, one did, but that is besides the point. So, I know what you are feeling. But, just because someone posts an opinion and a question that contradicts your own point of view, they don't become a troll. We all need to take a step back for a bit...
 
To defend BBB, I think he has a valid point. I'm not trying to be incendiary, but what will happen if this deal falls through? Everyone is quick to jump on the "bash UPS" bandwagon, but truthfully, has anyone contemplated the alternative? So, deal falls through with UPS. They now sign up ________ . (you fill in the blank) It could be ABX/ASTAR, or it could be someone else.

If you look back at my posts on this subject, I'm very sympathetic to your plight. I've been furloughed 3 times in 5 years. There truthfully was no option to go back, so it felt like my company just got shut down. Well, actually, one did, but that is besides the point. So, I know what you are feeling. But, just because someone posts an opinion and a question that contradicts your own point of view, they don't become a troll. We all need to take a step back for a bit...

Big Beer Belly, BrowntotheBone, eatme and a host of other names here is the same person who use to be known as "Rhoid", a fired Airborne employee. His only purpose is to harass airline employees.

BTW, his comment of this being like the movie of "Fatal Attraction" shows his ignorance even more. I've seen that movie, and it has no relevance whatsoever to this situation.

As far as ALPA's lawsuit, it has merit.
 
how about harold and kumar go to white castle? maybe there is a comparison- who knows? but riding that cheetah, sweet!
 
Big Beer Belly, BrowntotheBone, eatme and a host of other names here is the same person who use to be known as "Rhoid", a fired Airborne employee. His only purpose is to harass airline employees.

BTW, his comment of this being like the movie of "Fatal Attraction" shows his ignorance even more. I've seen that movie, and it has no relevance whatsoever to this situation.

As far as ALPA's lawsuit, it has merit.

I can't say for BTTB or eatme, but I have seen BBB on this board for a while. Long before the DHL problems. I just think he is proud of his company, which he should, thats a good thing to have. But I don't understand how he says he just shows up, does his job, collects his paycheck and goes home when it is clear by his posts he cares more than just that.

Thats not meant in any harsh way BBB. I like your posts, but I dislike this DHL deal more. And I think this is more personal between the carriers DHL is displacing rather than what you think the feelings are against UPS. And as I posted earlier, I do not blame UPS for any of this mess. I know it is 100% DHL. But I will say that your Norman Black is less than desirable. I can only imagine what he will say about your group when you are at heads with your management.
 
Last edited:
But I will say that your Norman Black is less than desirable. I can only imagine what he will say about your group when you are at heads with your management.

Beginning with the '97 Teamster's strike and over the ensuing years I have to grown to have a strong dislike for Black. He is a corporate spokeshole, no doubt about it.


BBB
 
Once UPS starts to spool up for PEAK season in the fall of 2008 I don’t see them making any “significant” changes till after peak season is over. You would have to understand UPS attitude regarding peak season to understand the weight of my statement. I could see UPS have the change over between January 09 and peak 09.

Of course my statement is also based on the fact the my new job prospects will be a lot better in 2009 then they currently are so we tend to believe what make us feel better.
 
Reminds me of the movie "Fatal Attraction". You Astar pilots are going to court to force your ex-girlfriend to still be your sweetheart?

What if you're successful? I can't imagine DHL continuing to accept $1 BILLION in losses annually in the US. I'd guess their Plan B is to fold their US operation and by default forfeit all their US business to FedEx and UPS. If so, how do the Astar pilots come out any better?

Because you idiot, ABX has given DHL a plan for well under the 1 BILLON they are going to pay UPS. Its not about the flying cost it is the ground operation. The pickup and delivery is still goig to be all dicked up!
 
When all said and done, this is no different from what FedEx and UPS have done with the postal contract. With the exception of the number of jobs lost, it almost the same type of deal. The USPS changed venders providing transportation of packages, not delivery of packages. There is a difference, and DHL and UPS will argue this point. This is not a merger, but a change of vendor. And I don't think you will find anyone in government who is going to force DHL to continue to take the losses they are taking. Either the jobs get lost to UPS, or they get lost.
 
When all said and done, this is no different from what FedEx and UPS have done with the postal contract. With the exception of the number of jobs lost, it almost the same type of deal. The USPS changed venders providing transportation of packages, not delivery of packages. There is a difference, and DHL and UPS will argue this point. This is not a merger, but a change of vendor. And I don't think you will find anyone in government who is going to force DHL to continue to take the losses they are taking. Either the jobs get lost to UPS, or they get lost.

Last time I checked...UPS and FedEx don't truly compete with the USPS. Same cannot be said for the UPS and DHL. Big friggin difference. And if they're gonna be lost, then they get lost....not this dressed up pile of bull butter!!!
 
Last time I checked...UPS and FedEx don't truly compete with the USPS. Same cannot be said for the UPS and DHL. Big friggin difference. And if they're gonna be lost, then they get lost....not this dressed up pile of bull butter!!!

Actaully, when I worked at UPS in the hub a few years back, the USPS was a bigger competitor than FedEx. And yes, they still offer the same services as any other delivery company. The only difference is the USPS is helped along by all of us, the tax payer.
 
DHL already gave up the US. They are only trying to keep it going to the extent of international relationships and customers. If they shut down completely, it would hurt the international customer base.
 
The only difference is the USPS is helped along by all of us, the tax payer.


It's always been my impression that the USPS is the only government entity that is wholly self-sufficient, with no reliance on taxpayers for its revenue. Which would make it a competitor, at least in a part of the market.
 
Google search USPS and anti-trust immunity... Here is just one of the many articles pointing out that the USPS is not subject to anti-trust laws.

The Postal Service also enjoys exemption from most taxes and the ability to borrow from the Treasury at below-market rates. It also gets cushy legal perks - like immunity from antitrust prosecution, truth-in-advertising laws, SEC transparency requirements, and parking tickets.
 
When all said and done, this is no different from what FedEx and UPS have done with the postal contract. With the exception of the number of jobs lost, it almost the same type of deal. The USPS changed venders providing transportation of packages, not delivery of packages. There is a difference, and DHL and UPS will argue this point. This is not a merger, but a change of vendor. And I don't think you will find anyone in government who is going to force DHL to continue to take the losses they are taking. Either the jobs get lost to UPS, or they get lost.

EP1,

You can't use the FDX/USPS arrangement when talking about the proposed DHL/UPS deal. It's apples and oranges. By law, the USPS being a part of the federal government is immune from antitrust violations.

UPS argued vehemently against the FDX/USPS deal on antitrust issues in '01 and had got the DOJ to investigate it. Ultimately the complaint was dropped due to the inherent antitrust protection the USPS enjoys.

FAJ

EDIT: If I would have read the thread to it's end, I would have seen that others have already pointed out the antitrust immunity the USPS enjoys.
 
Last edited:
Political pressure is officially out of just Ohio lawmakers hands.

http://www.thespectrum.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080804/NEWS01/80804014

August 4, 2008



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Senators express concern over delivery srevices' agreement[/FONT]
WASHINGTON – Today, Sen Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, and Herb Kohl, D-Wis, called for federal review of a proposed arrangement between United Parcel Service and DHL Express US, the second and third largest overnight package delivery services in the United States.
In a letter to Assistant Attorney General Thomas Barnett of the U.S. Department of Justice’s Antitrust Division and U.S. Federal Trade Commission Chairman William Kovacic, Kohl and Hatch stated the 10-year contract for UPS to become the exclusive provider of air transportation for DHL’s North American package delivery service raises important antitrust and competition issues.
Their letter is published below:

Dear Assistant Attorney General Barnett and Chairman Kovacic:

On May 28, 2008, DHL Express US (“DHL”) and United Parcel Service, Inc. (“UPS”) announced their intention to enter into a contract where UPS will become, for ten years, the exclusive provider of air transportation for DHL’s North American package delivery service. As the Chairman and Ranking Republican Member of the Senate Antitrust Subcommittee, we believe that this proposed agreement raises important antitrust and competition issues that should be examined carefully by the Department of Justice (“Department”) or the Federal Trade Commission (“Commission”).

UPS and DHL are, respectively, the second and third largest overnight package delivery services in the United States. Therefore, if consummated, DHL will become reliant for air transportation on one of its two major competitors. This raises the question if DHL will still be able to effectively compete against UPS, since UPS will now have a large role in determining the cost and quality of DHL’s services. In addition, we presume that such a relationship would also require DHL to adopt UPS’s package tracking, labeling and hub distribution systems. Whether, and how, DHL packages will receive priority should UPS planes fill to capacity is another concern raised by this deal. As a result, some critics of the proposed agreement contend that DHL will become a captive of UPS, rather than an independent competitor. Further, having only two airlines providing national airlift capacity for overnight package delivery could raise the risk of serious economic disruption should service on one of these two airlines be reduced due to unforeseen difficulties, such as a strike, maintenance issues, weather disruptions or other similar disruptive events.

It has been reported that the parties are close to finalizing this agreement. The prospect of a quick ratification is equally disconcerting since the proposed contract will have a devastating financial impact on DHL’s current air transport providers, ABX Air and ASTAR and these airlines’ base of operations, southern Ohio.

It should be noted that we have not reached a conclusion as to the legality of this proffered transaction under the antitrust laws. However, due to the issues raised above and urgency of this matter, we respectfully request that the antitrust agencies initiate an investigation into this arrangement immediately.

Thank you for your consideration of this matter.

Sincerely,

Herb Kohl and Orrin Hatch
 

Latest resources

Back
Top