UPS high speen departure

[gt2]

Heard a UPS crew tell ATC they needed to exceed 250 knots below 10k. Just curious as to why you'd have to do that on any of the aircraft.

 

[TankerPuke]

Probably too heavy and their min maneuvering speed was greater than 250.

 

[Fliteidol]

FAR 91.117(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

It was probably a 747 and the particular operation was a flaps up climb at a heavy weight. As to notifying ATC, debatable as to the requirement but certainly a courtesy.

 

[propilot]

It's courtesy to tell them in the US not required. It's operational necessity. Either that or climb to 10K dirty. In Europe, expect a lot of paperwork and possible violations if you don't ask permission first... To say it's a 74... maybe, there are others that have the same issue.

 

[HoursHore]

Heavy 74 and MD-11 will be above 250 on departure. Courtesy to let ATC know, but not required.

 

[Fliteidol]

It's courtesy to tell them in the US not required. It's operational necessity. Either that or climb to 10K dirty. In Europe, expect a lot of paperwork and possible violations if you don't ask permission first... To say it's a 74... maybe, there are others that have the same issue.

Not quite true. For example in German airspace the restriction is 250 kts below 10,000 except in class C airspace which happens to be the busiest terminal areas. So if you depart Frankfurt and request a speed above 250 you may well receive a precise German correction along the lines......."you are in class C airspace, zere are no restrictions."

 

[b747dogg]

Clean speed for the 747 classics is about 275. Climbing out dirty is not an option, burns too much fuel.

 

[propilot]

Not quite true. For example in German airspace the restriction is 250 kts below 10,000 except in class C airspace which happens to be the busiest terminal areas. So if you depart Frankfurt and request a speed above 250 you may well receive a precise German correction along the lines......."you are in class C airspace, zere are no restrictions."[/QUOTE

We always ask in Germany...Never been given that response. Usually asked why need the speed restriction waived...

 

[Fliteidol]

OK..... Class C airspace in Germany is terminal control zones around busy airports (EDDF etc kinda like our class B) and airspace above FL100. Next time you are there read the notes on the Jepp. Its says ...Max 250kts below FL100 except in class C airspace. As you are IN class C airspace there is NO restriction and nothing to "waive" and the German controllers know this. You will never hear a Lufthansa crew asking for "high speed".... just us Yanks.

 

[propilot]

yawn...

 

[embpic1]

The 747s need to climb out at V2+100 in order to make 30 degree bank turns when clean (flaps up). At the heavier weights this is always above 250kts.

 

[bigsky]

Max takeoff in the Md11 has a min clean speed of about 280. While I agree with the class c comment in Germany many of the sids specifically say max 250 below 10. Often this can be waved but lately some of the controllers do not accept operational needs such as min maneuvering speed, but rather it has to be safety reasons.....They informed our company that min maneuvering speed did not fall into the safety category, and if we play that card to be prepared to fill out paper work justifying it. That was in Leipzig.

 

[propilot]

Max takeoff in the Md11 has a min clean speed of about 280. While I agree with the class c comment in Germany many of the sids specifically say max 250 below 10. Often this can be waved but lately some of the controllers do not accept operational needs such as min maneuvering speed, but rather it has to be safety reasons.....They informed our company that min maneuvering speed did not fall into the safety category, and if we play that card to be prepared to fill out paper work justifying it. That was in Leipzig.

Tnaks You!

 

[embpic1]

Only once I was I denied permission to exceed 250 below 10K. It was in EWR. I just had to climb out with flaps 5 to 10K.

 

[cheater1239]

Only once I was I denied permission to exceed 250 below 10K. It was in EWR. I just had to climb out with flaps 5 to 10K.

shouldn't have asked for "permission". it's provided for in part 91 and there is zero requirement to request it

 

[Fliteidol]

Bigsky you are correct about Leipzig I have never been there but it is class D. Frankfurt, Dusseldorf, Munich etc are class C.

 

[GittinFatter]

In the U.S. you don't have to ask permission to exceed 250 on departure if you need it; however its couteous to advise them, but on the other side, ATC can tell you to maintain 250 or less and you must comply unless there is an emergency.
Leipzig is fairly strict on the 250 below 10.

 

[HA25]

both the "heavy's" I've flown will normally climb at 280-290 KIAS once clean to maintain 1.3G / 30 degrees bank ability.. the L1011 I've only jumpseated on but if those were heavy, they'd climb at well over 330.. ATC just has to deal with it and they learn to expect it.

 

["Luke"]

It may have been an Evergreen bird flying UPS for peak. In that case if it was close to max gross, 283 kts would have been the flap retract speed with 30 degrees of bank protection. Target climb speed would have been 330 kts. That's allot of smash.

 

[belchfire]

There may be something in UPS's manual that requires them to advise ATC of the need for a high speed climb to get to a clean wing below 10K...