UPS/FEDEX etc Jumpseating

[de727ups]

Doors won't help

Caveman. Reinforced doors would only help you on aircraft that are designed with seats behind the door. That would be the DC8, the few 747's left, and the A300...not sure how the MD11 is set up. The 727, 757, and 767 cockpits are set up so the jumpseats are in the cockpit...there really is no door to reinforce. And trust me, if you've ever ridden on one of the behind the door, sideways, next to the john, jumpseats on the DC8 you wouldn't be worried about trying to make that seat available.

Big Duke. The ID verification program is called CASS and it's been spearheaded by UPS. It will involve several large airlines. No "little 135" airlines are part of this system so I'm not sure what you are talking about. It's a test program with a limited number of large airlines. If the TSA/FAA buys off on it, hopefully it could be expanded to "little 135" airlines.

I agree that this has dragged on way to long but the ball is not in our court. This is a TSA/FAA thing. If you can agree that the TSA/FAA security stuff has been pretty screwed up since 9/11, then you can understand what we are up against. I'm not really sure what you would have us do and neither of you have made any helpful suggestions....

I'm personally hoping for tickets from home of record in the next contract, like FEDEX has. Then, we really wouldn't need to jumpseat for work related issues. The way it is now, if the company builds the line with a company deadhead (not allowed at FEDEX), then you are on your own to commute to work. This WILL be addressed on our next contract and I hope and pray we can get a better deal. Until then, I'm open to suggestions about how to fight this issue.

I can predict what will happen if a few Capts start bumping UPS/Fedex guys. The bumped crewmembers will complain to their jumpseat cooridnator, that jumpseat cooridnator will complain to your jumpseat cooridnator, and your jumpseat cooridnator will ask you why you violated the ALPA recommedations/policy on this issue. It's your jumpseat to do with as you please but there is a lot of protocol and history that has shown courtesy to the freight dawgs. We appreciate the jumpseats and look forward to being able to make it up to you some day.

 

[flying4life]

Big Duke Six,
I just don't believe we need to make any pilot the bargaining tool to get to management of any company. I think instead we need to leave it in the hands of the pilots who want to do what's right for the industry. These guys are working on it and as we all know the wheels of government turn very slowly and as outsiders it may be difficult to see the progress being made by our freight dog friends.
As far as Caveman is concerned, I'm still leaning towards him taking it personally to the freight dog pilot. When he says "There is no incentive for the freight dogs to get it changed because it isn't hurting them..." and "Either we ride on you or you find your own way to work...As long as our JS coordinator tells us to keep giving you guys rides I'll do it and be civil about it, but coming into my cockpit hat in hand mumbling some kind of lame assed apology while looking for a ride is getting old." It sounds personally directed to the pilot to me.
Yes it's getting old and I want the reciprication back in all jumpseats...actual seats in the cockpit. The free rides they get are in the back. If the flight is full, they're still out of luck. On that note, it's also not about doors on freighters, thankfully. On some freighters like the UPS 75 & 76 there's no door at all. All the seats are in the actual cockpit. I don't want to be restricted to behind a door or to airplanes that have a door to ride behind. I want to be verified as a qualified additional crewmember in a seat that is fillable in the cockpit. That's what is taking so long. Being able to get all the copmpanies to work together with the government to verify our employment.
I know this is getting long and I'll finish this up with this final thought. When we do finally get the right to ride in each others actual jumpseat again, how much harder do you think a freight dog will work to get you on his flight knowing you let him on yours when he couldn't return the favor.

 

[flying4life]

TO SDF2BUF2MCO,
Thanks for the welcome old flying chum and thanks for site!

 

[TonyC]

Re: Doors won't help

Caveman. Reinforced doors would only help you on aircraft that are designed with seats behind the door. That would be the DC8, the few 747's left, and the A300...not sure how the MD11 is set up.

The FedEx MD-11/MD-10 has a door that is supposed to be reinforced - - most of FDX's are (FedEx has reported to the media that FedEx is in 100% compliance with the TSA directives - - HA!) Behind that door are from 0 (zero, in a crew rest aircraft) to 5 seats, depending on the configuration fo the aircraft.

I'm personally hoping for tickets from home of record in the next contract, like FEDEX has.

Common myth - FALSE.

What FedEx has is a monthly deadhead bank. All trips begin from domicile, but many begin with a commercial deadhead. If, say, three trips and end with a commercial deadhead on NWA from MEM to SEA, and you live in MSP, you could trade the tickets to commute from MSP and come out ahead. On the other hand, if you're commuting the same line from MCO, you're gonna take it in the shorts - - or resort to hitching a ride.

No "tickets from home of record."

The way it is now, if the company builds the line with a company deadhead (not allowed at FEDEX), then you are on your own to commute to work.

Although it's not the preferred method, some lines are bulit with Company deadheads at the front, back, and in the middle of trips.

Has somebody been preaching that "grass is greener at FedEX" song again?!?

I can predict what will happen if a few Capts start bumping UPS/Fedex guys. The bumped crewmembers will complain to their jumpseat cooridnator, that jumpseat cooridnator will complain to your jumpseat cooridnator, and your jumpseat cooridnator will ask you why you violated the ALPA recommedations/policy on this issue. It's your jumpseat to do with as you please but there is a lot of protocol and history that has shown courtesy to the freight dawgs. We appreciate the jumpseats and look forward to being able to make it up to you some day.

I agree 100%. There's nothing we would like better than to offer the jumpseats to our brethren industry-wide. If it were up to us.... but it simply ain't.

The ball's NOT in our court.

 

[TonyC]

Re: flying4life -

I think you misunderstood Caveman. He was merely stating, with a great amount of merit, that it is a matter of principle. He is not advocating making it pilot vs pilot. He was saying that the only way to get across to FedEx and UPS management that it is a problem is to deny their pilots a seat when they need to get to work.

OK, let me see if I understand you. If I'm trying to commute to Memphis to start a trip and I ask for your jumpseat, you can send a message to FedEx management by denying me a ride, and leaving me stranded to miss my trip. I get removed from my trip, I lose the pay, I probably get reprimanded by my Chief Pilot, and risk termination if it happens again.

And that's not "pilot vs. pilot"?!?!?

I don't think we misunderstood Caveman at all. He advocates sticking it to the pilot so the pilot will get off his lazy bumm and fix the jumpseat problem. That view of the problem is incredibly short-sighted. Ask yourself why you can't ride in the cockpit jumpseat of a Delta jet. Is it because the lazy Delta pilots are too busy counting their money to get off their lazy bumms to get the problem fixed?!?! Be real.

I suggest you try some version of the "pilot-to-_____" strategy next time you walk the gauntlet at the Pax terminal. Tell the TSA guy you're not gonna take off your shoes this time until they develop a more reasonable screening process. I'm sure the Director of the TSA will hear your message loud and clear.

 

[active_herk]

Paid tickets to work

I'm personally hoping for tickets from home of record in the next contract, like FEDEX has.

TonyC is correct in stating that we don't have this policy in place. Also, if you do try to get this worked into your contract, talk with some Atlas guys about it. They have it, but it isn't such a good deal because the company now figures that since they are footing the bill on the commute, there is no reason to pay you. In effect, you are working for free on your paid ticket to and from work. Your pay doesn't start until you are on your operating leg. I would make sure that if you get this stipulation worked into your contract, that you make sure your pay reflects your deadhead time as paid time and not free time. If you could get this, it would be an awesome policy! Good luck.

 

[de727ups]

TonyC and ActiveHerk

TonyC. Thanks for explaining it better. As for the grass is greener at FEDEX. In reference to this issue, the grass IS greener at FEDEX...just not as green as I thought.

ActiveHerk. It would suck to not get paid for your commercial deadhead days. That would never fly for us as it would be a step backwards.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Re: TonyC and ActiveHerk

TonyC. Thanks for explaining it better. As for the grass is greener at FEDEX. In reference to this issue, the grass IS greener at FEDEX...just not as green as I thought.

TonyC, I used to have about 20 FedEx baseball caps compliments of your company. I'm down to 2. You know who has the rest? My UPS buddies. Can only guess as to why. I don't have any UPS baseball caps but UPS helped me get my wings. For that, I am forever grateful.
P.S. Got any more hats ?

 

[TonyC]

Re: Re: TonyC and ActiveHerk

TonyC, I used to have about 20 FedEx baseball caps compliments of your company. I'm down to 2.

Can I have one?!?!

 

[profile]

Tony C writes:

Although it's not the preferred method, some lines are bulit with Company deadheads at the front, back, and in the middle of trips.

Just to clarify, those deadheads are not scheduled on company aircraft, at least they're not supposed to be. Sometimes you see that in unusual circumstances, out of SFS, for example, but even then they're supposed to be built in the pairing as a regular deadhead.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Re: Re: Re: TonyC and ActiveHerk

Can I have one?!?!

If I give one to you, are you prepared for the consequences? That is, it's a chick/babe magnet (don't tell Momma!). Drive a Buick with a FedEX hat on in SW Orlando is just asking for trouble. Don't try this in Germantown !

 

[TonyC]

Tony C writes:

Although it's not the preferred method, some lines are bulit with Company deadheads at the front, back, and in the middle of trips.

Just to clarify, those deadheads are not scheduled on company aircraft, at least they're not supposed to be. Sometimes you see that in unusual circumstances, out of SFS, for example, but even then they're supposed to be built in the pairing as a regular deadhead.

I should have said TRIPS instead of LINES. The Contract 8.A.3.c allows scheduling of deadheads on company aircraft in "individual cases of operational necessity and with the approval of the System Chief Pilot" so long as they advise the SIG "of the reasons for this action within 5 days of occurrence."

I've seen ANC RFO pairings start out with a company deadhead, and we've seen "intra-Pacific-theater" company deadheads for various reasons, one of which was Immigration difficulties on Pax flights. Also, scheduling routinely builds X-pairings that begin with Company deadheads - - or Lear jet or other corporate jets - - to get a crew to point B to recover a jet or pick up a trip.

It's uncommon to see Company deadheads built on to published lines, but it's not prohibited.

 

[TonyC]

Re: Re: Re: Re: TonyC and ActiveHerk

If I give one to you, are you prepared for the consequences? That is, it's a chick/babe magnet (don't tell Momma!). Drive a Buick with a FedEX hat on in SW Orlando is just asking for trouble. Don't try this in Germantown !

In the first place, I don't drive a Buick. Nothing against Buicks, but I just haven't worked my way that far up the GM chain. I'm still comfortable with Chevys and Pontiacs. But I might get there someday.

In the second place, Momma won't let me drive through Germantown unless I'm on my way to the ALPA office. Growin' up where I did, we kinda had to swear a pact to not fall into the uppity crowds.

I reckon I can't afford any more babes -- 5 in one house is plenty. You better save the hat for a more deserving candidate.

 

[Big Duke Six]

Guys,
I have a reply to Tony C farther down, but first things first:

I was not trying to say that, in the real world, any of us would deny a freightdog a jumpseat because he can't reciprocate. Even Caveman said as much. It's a frustrating situation and I was just trying to get to the real cause of the problem. I'll believe you when you say it's not a door thing, but rather a problem with getting CASS implemented. (BTW, I will do some research and find out exactly what the program was and who it applied to that enabled my previous company to haul offline jumpseaters in our cockpits.) Because we did it there, I had a hard time believing you when you said that was the problem. In my eyes, that "problem" had been solved long ago!!! But OK, maybe it is still a problem for you all so we'll leave it at that. If I find out something worth passing on, I will.

Now, this from Tony C:
"OK, let me see if I understand you. If I'm trying to commute to Memphis to start a trip and I ask for your jumpseat, you can send a message to FedEx management by denying me a ride, and leaving me stranded to miss my trip. I get removed from my trip, I lose the pay, I probably get reprimanded by my Chief Pilot, and risk termination if it happens again.

And that's not "pilot vs. pilot"?!?!?

I don't think we misunderstood Caveman at all. He advocates sticking it to the pilot so the pilot will get off his lazy bumm and fix the jumpseat problem. That view of the problem is incredibly short-sighted. Ask yourself why you can't ride in the cockpit jumpseat of a Delta jet. Is it because the lazy Delta pilots are too busy counting their money to get off their lazy bumms to get the problem fixed?!?! Be real."

First, again not that I would do it, but I DO think that a few stranded pilots would certainly send a message to your management if this started happening on a wide scale. Yes, it certainly would. And don't you think that IF (not saying they do) but IF the pilots had ANY input whatsoever that this would certainly help launch them into action, as a group? Or as you put it "get him off his lazy bumm"? Be real, of course it would. Said pilots would probably raise he!! with their own people and find out why the frick they still can't reciprocate.

Second, the analogy with Delta is apples and oranges. I can still ride on Delta and they can still ride with me because they have seats in the back to offer. You unfortunately don't. That's why the problem appears. If you did have seats to offer, this thread would not have started.

But listen. Nobody is going to start denying anyone anything. I certainly won't. I'll take your word for it that it's out of your control. We'll just be patient and hope for everyone's sake that we get a resolution soon. No big deal.

Brothers.

 

[TonyC]

First, again not that I would do it, but I DO think that a few stranded pilots would certainly send a message to your management if this started happening on a wide scale. Yes, it certainly would.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. The only way to prove one view or the other would be to try it, and I don't think the results would be pretty. I maintain that management wouldn't see that far - - they would be quick to discipline pilots, perhaps fire pilots, certainly chastise pilots for not making more secure travel arrangements to show up for work. Remember, pilots don't just jumpseat to get to work, they jumpseat home, too. And when Daddy doesn't get home after the trip, Momma ain't too happy. What sort of a "message" do you suppose she would get from the principled Passenger airline Captain?

And don't you think that IF (not saying they do) but IF the pilots had ANY input whatsoever that this would certainly help launch them into action, as a group? Or as you put it "get him off his lazy bumm"? Be real, of course it would. Said pilots would probably raise he!! with their own people and find out why the frick they still can't reciprocate.

Yes. IF pilots had control over the issue, going "pilot to pilot" would be a way of influencing them. My "lazy bumm" comment was intended as sarcasm, alluding to the characterization that some want to make of pilots who they assume are in control of the jumpseat issues and obviously don't want to fix them. I assure you, we have dedicated individuals and committees that are agressively pursuing every avenue possible to expedite the process of returning the reciprocal jumpseat. It is not for lack of effort that the problems are not resolved, and I think those who are working so feverishly and tirelessly would take umbrage to a "lazy bumm" characterization.

Second, the analogy with Delta is apples and oranges. I can still ride on Delta and they can still ride with me because they have seats in the back to offer. You unfortunately don't. That's why the problem appears. If you did have seats to offer, this thread would not have started..

The fact that you can ride in the back on Delta only makes it appear to you that there is no problem there, yet the bigger issue remains unsolved across the board. flying4life adressed that issue:

But listen. Nobody is going to start denying anyone anything. I certainly won't. I'll take your word for it that it's out of your control. We'll just be patient and hope for everyone's sake that we get a resolution soon. No big deal.

Brothers.

The reciprocal jumpseat, in my estimation, is a HUGE deal. It is incredibly frustrating to us to see the privileges that have been negotiated by pilots through the decades now yanked away by a government bureaucracy that has no motivation or inclination to restore them.

Rest assured, there is nobody more eager to restore the reciprocal jumpseats than are we. Thank you for your patience.

 

[Caveman]

I have been seriously mischaracterized by TonyC and others on this issue. All I want is for the freight pilots to get their companies to install the reinforced doors so that on the a/c with seats in the back we can ride. I know that the cockpit JS is lost in the TSA morass but there is no reason why the doors shouldn't already be installed system wide. That's where I hold the freight pilots responsible. It's their company. They are the ones that can influence management to get it done. There is no valid reason why large profitable companies like UPS and FedEx haven't complied with this 100%. Maybe a one day moratorium on allowing freight pilots to JS would cause enough of a financial impact to UPS/FedEx to encourage them to install the doors on every a/c that had seats in the back. If they can't complete even 10% of their flights because of a lack of pilots they might get the message. Some of you disagree and suggest that this would do nothing but inconvenience the pilots themselves. I respect that, but I also disagree.

I didn't use the term 'lazy bum'. TonyC did. Don't try to assert that that was my message. It wasn't. I suggested that the pilots weren't doing enough. I never said they weren't trying at all. I also clearly stated that I have not and would not independently deny a JS to anyone for anything having to do with this issue. However, I reserve the right to suggest, petition, advocate, and lobby for any collective action that would get this fixed. I am entitled to my position just as those of you that disagree are entitled to yours. I didn't suggest that because you take a different stance that you had it in for passenger pilots did I?

 

[TonyC]

I have been seriously mischaracterized by TonyC and others on this issue.

I'm sorry if you feel that way, as I in no way mean to attack you personally. I thought I had a grasp, though, on the ideas you've espoused, and only exaggerated them somewhat as means of illustrating their fallacies.

All I want is for the freight pilots to get their companies to install the reinforced doors so that on the a/c with seats in the back we can ride.

If only it were that easy. If only freight pilots could MAKE their companies do ANYTHING. In fact, MOST of the MD-11/MD-10 fleet is equipped with the hardened door. On these airplanes, some company employees can jumpseat in a business status, but they have been through a screening process, and we can pull up their picture in a computer database to verify their eligibility for jumpseat status. We cannot, however, verify the validity of the credentials of a Delta pilot, or a United pilot, or Mesaba pilot. Consequently, the TSA won't let us carry you. We're fighting an uphill battle here, and although it's not visible to you, it's a valiant fight.

I know that the cockpit JS is lost in the TSA morass but there is no reason why the doors shouldn't already be installed system wide. That's where I hold the freight pilots responsible. It's their company. They are the ones that can influence management to get it done. There is no valid reason why large profitable companies like UPS and FedEx haven't complied with this 100%.

Yes, it's our company. And we have the power to influence management to do anything we want. That's why we have the highest pay rates in the industry, we work only 4 days a month, and we retire at 15 years with 200% of our pay. Don't you see the absurdity of what you suggest?

I agree that the Company should be in 100% compliance. I find it reprehensible that the Company can tell the media that it IS in 100% compliance, when it clearly is not. So what do we do? Call the TV stations? Write a letter to the editor of the local newspaper? E-mail Katie Curic? If the Company can defy the TSA and get away with it, what are we 4000 pilots gonna do to make it right?

Maybe a one day moratorium on allowing freight pilots to JS would cause enough of a financial impact to UPS/FedEx to encourage them to install the doors on every a/c that had seats in the back. If they can't complete even 10% of their flights because of a lack of pilots they might get the message. Some of you disagree and suggest that this would do nothing but inconvenience the pilots themselves. I respect that, but I also disagree.

OK, then we'll disagree. We'll just have to leave it at that, because I don't think either one of us is apt to persuade the other one otherwise.

I didn't use the term 'lazy bum'. TonyC did. Don't try to assert that that was my message. It wasn't. I suggested that the pilots weren't doing enough. I never said they weren't trying at all.

I take credit for "lazy bumm" in reference to what the pilots in question must be sitting on instead of forcing the Company to fix the riciprocal jumpseat debacle. It was your humble opinion that we aren't doing enough. I find that offensive. I thought my response was rather mild, and "lazy bumm" seemed less than harsh at the moment.

I also clearly stated that I have not and would not independently deny a JS to anyone for anything having to do with this issue. However, I reserve the right to suggest, petition, advocate, and lobby for any collective action that would get this fixed. I am entitled to my position just as those of you that disagree are entitled to yours. I didn't suggest that because you take a different stance that you had it in for passenger pilots did I?

I respect your right to suggest, petition, advocate, and lobby -- surely you respect my right to rebutt. Remember, though, we're all in this together.

Edited to correct spelling errors.

 

[flying4life]

Caveman,
No you didn't suggest that Freight Dogs have it in for passenger pilots. You do believe you've been mischaracterized.

"I have been seriously mischaracterized by TonyC and others on this issue. All I want is for the freight pilots to get their companies to install the reinforced doors so that on the a/c with seats in the back we can ride."

If I may, going over your first reply to this topic is what has caused most of the upset and I don't believe that you've been mischaracterized. Infact at the very end of your first reply you mention donning your flame suit. You say some harsh things here and that is what has caused the responses. Maybe you should re-read what you posted.....

"There is no incentive for the freight dogs to get it changed because it isn't hurting them or their company. Meanwhile we are supposed to suck it up and keep giving free rides on our airline for the good of the profession. BS. It's time to put up or walk. Either we ride on you or you can find your own way to work. As long as our JS coordinator tells us to keep giving you guys rides I'll do it and I'll be civil about it, but coming into my cockpit hat in hand and mumbling some kind of lame assed apology while looking for a ride is getting old. Get it fixed! BTW, I don't have a beef with FedEx. At least they give our employees discounted shipping. It's not the same as a free ride, but it's something. Donning flame suit now......."

What I personally hear from you is "What about me?, What's in it for me?" Atleast FED EX gives you free shipping, Yippy Skippy! So now you don't have a beef wth FED EX because you can get discounts on shipping, even though it's still not a free ride.

You know I started this out with the idea of trying to pursuade you to see what it is that the pilot group is working on collectively.
Screw that! People like you piss me off. You want to make some big statement and then whine about stiff responses from others when they call you to the floor on it. Stand up! Say it, you don't get something and therefore neither should they.
The Fact is our country was attacked and so was our profession. We all still need to work together to get all our jumpseats open and available to each other. Freight Dogs aside, I still want to be able to ride up front when every seat is taken in the back. It pisses me off to see 19 terrorists still creating havoc in our own land. Something as simple as the jumpseat has become huge. Instead of realizing it and trying to work together, we sit here complaining about what's in it for me. It's going to take time and we have to be steadfast in our own resolve to see it through to the end. The freight dogs did not cause 9-11, and as a unified group we need to be there for each other working together to get the jumpseat issue fixed! Fixed for all of us!! I feel bad for the freight dogs, they can't give us a ride because we're not a box.
Tony C~, you have it right when you say that our jumpseat issues are masked for passenger guys. Every time I go to work I try to take my own company because I don't know how full the flights will be on the other carriers. I've been stranded when flights are full but the actual jumpseat went out empty.
The big picture here is that our industry has been attacked and we need to look out for one another instead of looking out for ourselves. IT DOES NOT HURT TO LET A FREIGHT DOG RIDE IN THE BACK!!!! I don't know about other companies, but with us, jumpeaters from other carriers are the very last to get a seat. After all our non-revs and our own jumpseaters. My point is who cares!! I'm not out anything for extending some fricking courtesy to a fellow pilot!! I say let em ride while we work on the actual jumpseats as an entire pilot group from all carriers!!

 

[Caveman]

Reply deleted.

Forget it. Life's too short. You win. I'm outta here on this one.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Hey,
Since I see a bunch of FEDEX and UPS pilots on this post, can anyone tell me if either airline will be hiring soon and if so, what is the best way to get hired? I have my stuff online with both companies, know 1 person at each and would consider giving up my firstborn to work at either company. Is that enough...he he

 

[PCL Flt-ops]

Caveman,

I completely see your frustration with the current jumpseat situation. I think that this is a problem that is far greater than just FedEx and UPS. It's both of them (FDX/UPS), Airborne, DHL, and every other pax carrier - where we are not allowed access to the flight deck jumpseat. That is the issue!

I will say that the fact that UPS is spearheading the whole CASS system for jumpseating says a lot. If they are the biggest advocate behind getting offline jumpseating restored then that's enough right there to show that they are dedicated to restoring offline jumpseating.

Sometimes I do think though, why should FedEx or UPS be allowed to jumpseat? Because “maybe” someday in the future they “may” be able to reciprocate. So should we start letting Executive Jet pilots ride because they “may” reciprocate someday. Should we start letting all foreign airline pilots jumpseat because they might reciprocate someday? Let’s look at the present, right now.

But where I do lie blame is with ALPA National over this – not FedEx or UPS. We are going on almost 2 1/2 years without jumpseating, and this should have been tackled right after Sept. 11th. Do you realize how much lobbying and pushing ALPA did for guns in the cockpit? How much did you hear about jumpseating? It should have been priority number one. To be more specific, I think that ALPA should have paid for the whole setup of the new CASS system right off the bat. That’s one of the things holding it up right now – who pays for it? I see that as a big problem when the CASS system does get setup. I can see certain airlines not willing to pay for the server fees, etc. And to be honest, it isn't something that the airlines should necessarily be paying for. Maybe ALPA should pay for it. Although I am just a lower paid regional pilot and not a B767 Captain for Delta, I still have no problem with my dues going towards something like this.

Anyone care to comment on this?