UPS/FEDEX etc Jumpseating

[DenverDude2002]

Wait a minute, if sweet tea is a "southern" only thing why did I see it everywhere in Corpus Christi Texas . I like it, though I think a lot of commercial brands use nutrasweet which I cant stand. Sweet Tea is ok, but being from Colorado, I prefer our local drink of choice: Fat Tire, micro brews and Coors.

 

[Caveman]

Here we are almost 2 1/2 years after the Feds yanked the JS and still the freight carriers have done little or nothing to fix the problem of reciprical JS. I predicted this and was shouted down for it. Until there is an equal reciprocity requirement to ride our JS this will never get fixed. There is no incentive for the freight dogs to get it changed because it isn't hurting them or their company. Meanwhile we are supposed to suck it up and keep giving free rides on our airline for the good of the profession. BS. It's time to put up or walk. Either we ride on you or you can find your own way to work. As long as our JS coordinator tells us to keep giving you guys rides I'll do it and I'll be civil about it, but coming into my cockpit hat in hand and mumbling some kind of lame assed apology while looking for a ride is getting old. Get it fixed! BTW, I don't have a beef with FedEx. At least they give our employees discounted shipping. It's not the same as a free ride, but it's something. Donning flame suit now.......

 

[flying4life]

As far as jumpseats go, we need to continue to recipricate to the cargo guys. I live in SDF and used UPS for 5 years before 9-11 and those guys were awesome. I still stay in touch with many of the pilots there and I can assure you they are working on fixing the problem. If the tables were turned I woiuldn't not ride on them. I would hope they understood and would grant some professional courtesy to a fellow pilot. Think about it, if you were the guy asking for the free ride and knew you couldn't recipricate, don't you think you'd feel sheepish? Let's not make this pilot against pilot. Besides not allowing someone to jumpseat will just build resentment not change how hard these guys are working to get jumpseats back. Obviously as the captain, the jumpseat is yours to "control", but as for me, my jumpseat is open to any pilot who's authorized. Let em ride....

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

flying4life, welcome to the board, Cappy.

 

[Big Duke Six]

flying4life -

I think you misunderstood Caveman. He was merely stating, with a great amount of merit, that it is a matter of principle. He is not advocating making it pilot vs pilot. He was saying that the only way to get across to FedEx and UPS management that it is a problem is to deny their pilots a seat when they need to get to work. Sure, we're all in the same boat and I personally don't know if I would deny a seat if it was my decision. Like you, I would have a hard time doing it on a personal, PILOT TO PILOT level. But how else is their management going to get the message and see it as a problem?

Take UPS for example. I just don't see how, after making $500 to $900 MILLION IN PROFIT PER QUARTER last year (I don't have any numbers for prior years), that they can possibly try to claim they just can't afford it. That doesn't even pass the giggle test. The passenger carriers managed to put the doors in, even while they were bleeding to death. I think UPS is a great company, and FedEx too, but in their quest for profits they are doing their employees a great disservice by putting them in the position of having to beg rides all over the place knowing they can't reciprocate. I'm sure their pilots feel bad about it and would change it today if they could. The problem is the pilots apparently don't have the amount of influence they need to get it done. Caveman was just saying we should help them out a little by denying them seats. Sounds insane maybe, that that is the only way the bossmen will see it for what it is.

 

[de727ups]

TSA/FAA

Doors aren't going to help and are a waste of time...it's not about spending money on doors at UPS. We need TSA/FAA approval for the system designed to confirm the identity of jumpseaters and it's proving to be a slow process. ALPA was kind enough to understand that, and came out with the stated policy that freight jumpseaters will continue to be offered rides.

I don't think UPS would officially care one way or another if we lost our jumpseat priviliges. They would just say you should move to Louisville....have a nice day....

 

[dsee8driver]

I think a few of you miss the point all together.

I think UPS is a great company, and FedEx too, but in their quest for profits they are doing their employees a great disservice by putting them in the position of having to beg rides all over the place knowing they can't reciprocate.

1. When you were hired at UPS you were based in Louisville. It's not the company's fault you wanted to live in LA.

I'm sure their pilots feel bad about it and would change it today if they could. The problem is the pilots apparently don't have the amount of influence they need to get it done. Caveman was just saying we should help them out a little by denying them seats.

Denying a crewmember a jumpseat is screwing the crewmember. Unfortunately management could give a flying crap how you get to work as long as you got there. Who's problem is it if you can't get to work?

Meanwhile we are supposed to suck it up and keep giving free rides on our airline for the good of the profession. BS. It's time to put up or walk. Either we ride on you or you can find your own way to work

I don't know whether the reinforced doors are mandated or not. I would think they are since I can't see our airline making such modifications like they have unless it was mandated. After all we are home based and jumpseating is not a factor to get to work since they buy tickets. The doors are basically a death trap and what this has done is made the cabin door the primary exit for the jumpseater that has to be outside the cockpit.

UPS and Fed Ex are spearheading the effort to get the jumpseats open. Unfortunately, the EVER WONDERFUL, BUSH CREATED TSA, is the one holding all the cards. We will see if and when this program gets on the way and your airline is required to pay the fee to access it, if they will pay it.
As an example, if your airline failed to pay to join the program and you were negated a jumpseat, would you still feel the same way?

Bottom line is I would be more pissed off of the guys using jumpseats for company mandated travel, and you know who you are, then at the poor guy trying to get to work and unable to reciprocate because of the TSA.

 

[Caveman]

Big Duke Six,

That's exactly what I'm trying to say. Unless UPS and FedEx incur some inconvenience they just aren't going to change anything. I don't have an axe to grind with the freight guys but I want either them or us to bring some pressure to bear on their companies. Until that happens it will never change. So far the freight pilots have been unable to get it changed and IMHO they haven't tried hard enough. If necessary they should negotiate to get the doors installed. Just by suggesting that I'm considered to be unreasonable, but what are the alternatives? All I can do is refuse them the JS. That hasn't happened yet and it should be the last resort. But, it appears that things have ground to a halt and no more progress is being made. If that's the case then it's time to reconsider allowing the use of our JS until a company can reciprocate.

Caveman

 

[dsee8driver]

Big Duke Six,

That's exactly what I'm trying to say. Unless UPS and FedEx incur some inconvenience they just aren't going to change anything.
Caveman

Caveman I follow what you say, but let's be real. Who are you going to inconvenience? UPS, FEDX hell no, you are going to incovenience the individual trying to get to work. The very jumpseat coordinator trying to get the program going. UPS/FDX could care less how and when they got to work as long as one hour prior or whatever their report time is, their a$$ is in the cockpit.

Now when the next TSA inspector tries to ride your cockpit jumpseat, then you should use your authority and say to the scumbag hell no. They are allowed in cockpit jumpseats.

 

[Big Duke Six]

dsee -

I know that the only ones inconvenienced would be the pilots. That's the part that sucks. But by inconveniencing them, we would be in a roundabout way putting the pressure on management to get the JS program going. No one hear feels good about the method, but until the pilots themselves get inconvenienced, i.e. the JS coordinator himself, there is just not much incentive for them to get it done.

By the way, I'm not sure I'm buying the bit about them having a hard time getting the "system for verifying the identity of the jumpseaters" approved, as de727 said. The little Part 135 freight company I used to fly for had the program, and I don't think they had to pay a cent to get access to the database. If they had been required to pay, then I can tell you they sure as he!! would not have participated. But the fact is they have been allowing offline jumpseaters for nearly a year now. A 24 hour notice is required because they do have to check your name in a nationwide database, but the reality is the check is computer based and the search takes only milliseconds to complete.

Don't get me wrong. I'm the most easy going guy you'll ever meet, so I don't say these things just to stir people up. It's just that, considering the resources available to UPS and FedEx, it has dragged on WAY to long to be believable.

 

[de727ups]

Doors won't help

Caveman. Reinforced doors would only help you on aircraft that are designed with seats behind the door. That would be the DC8, the few 747's left, and the A300...not sure how the MD11 is set up. The 727, 757, and 767 cockpits are set up so the jumpseats are in the cockpit...there really is no door to reinforce. And trust me, if you've ever ridden on one of the behind the door, sideways, next to the john, jumpseats on the DC8 you wouldn't be worried about trying to make that seat available.

Big Duke. The ID verification program is called CASS and it's been spearheaded by UPS. It will involve several large airlines. No "little 135" airlines are part of this system so I'm not sure what you are talking about. It's a test program with a limited number of large airlines. If the TSA/FAA buys off on it, hopefully it could be expanded to "little 135" airlines.

I agree that this has dragged on way to long but the ball is not in our court. This is a TSA/FAA thing. If you can agree that the TSA/FAA security stuff has been pretty screwed up since 9/11, then you can understand what we are up against. I'm not really sure what you would have us do and neither of you have made any helpful suggestions....

I'm personally hoping for tickets from home of record in the next contract, like FEDEX has. Then, we really wouldn't need to jumpseat for work related issues. The way it is now, if the company builds the line with a company deadhead (not allowed at FEDEX), then you are on your own to commute to work. This WILL be addressed on our next contract and I hope and pray we can get a better deal. Until then, I'm open to suggestions about how to fight this issue.

I can predict what will happen if a few Capts start bumping UPS/Fedex guys. The bumped crewmembers will complain to their jumpseat cooridnator, that jumpseat cooridnator will complain to your jumpseat cooridnator, and your jumpseat cooridnator will ask you why you violated the ALPA recommedations/policy on this issue. It's your jumpseat to do with as you please but there is a lot of protocol and history that has shown courtesy to the freight dawgs. We appreciate the jumpseats and look forward to being able to make it up to you some day.

 

[flying4life]

Big Duke Six,
I just don't believe we need to make any pilot the bargaining tool to get to management of any company. I think instead we need to leave it in the hands of the pilots who want to do what's right for the industry. These guys are working on it and as we all know the wheels of government turn very slowly and as outsiders it may be difficult to see the progress being made by our freight dog friends.
As far as Caveman is concerned, I'm still leaning towards him taking it personally to the freight dog pilot. When he says "There is no incentive for the freight dogs to get it changed because it isn't hurting them..." and "Either we ride on you or you find your own way to work...As long as our JS coordinator tells us to keep giving you guys rides I'll do it and be civil about it, but coming into my cockpit hat in hand mumbling some kind of lame assed apology while looking for a ride is getting old." It sounds personally directed to the pilot to me.
Yes it's getting old and I want the reciprication back in all jumpseats...actual seats in the cockpit. The free rides they get are in the back. If the flight is full, they're still out of luck. On that note, it's also not about doors on freighters, thankfully. On some freighters like the UPS 75 & 76 there's no door at all. All the seats are in the actual cockpit. I don't want to be restricted to behind a door or to airplanes that have a door to ride behind. I want to be verified as a qualified additional crewmember in a seat that is fillable in the cockpit. That's what is taking so long. Being able to get all the copmpanies to work together with the government to verify our employment.
I know this is getting long and I'll finish this up with this final thought. When we do finally get the right to ride in each others actual jumpseat again, how much harder do you think a freight dog will work to get you on his flight knowing you let him on yours when he couldn't return the favor.

 

[flying4life]

TO SDF2BUF2MCO,
Thanks for the welcome old flying chum and thanks for site!

 

[TonyC]

Re: Doors won't help

Caveman. Reinforced doors would only help you on aircraft that are designed with seats behind the door. That would be the DC8, the few 747's left, and the A300...not sure how the MD11 is set up.

The FedEx MD-11/MD-10 has a door that is supposed to be reinforced - - most of FDX's are (FedEx has reported to the media that FedEx is in 100% compliance with the TSA directives - - HA!) Behind that door are from 0 (zero, in a crew rest aircraft) to 5 seats, depending on the configuration fo the aircraft.

I'm personally hoping for tickets from home of record in the next contract, like FEDEX has.

Common myth - FALSE.

What FedEx has is a monthly deadhead bank. All trips begin from domicile, but many begin with a commercial deadhead. If, say, three trips and end with a commercial deadhead on NWA from MEM to SEA, and you live in MSP, you could trade the tickets to commute from MSP and come out ahead. On the other hand, if you're commuting the same line from MCO, you're gonna take it in the shorts - - or resort to hitching a ride.

No "tickets from home of record."

The way it is now, if the company builds the line with a company deadhead (not allowed at FEDEX), then you are on your own to commute to work.

Although it's not the preferred method, some lines are bulit with Company deadheads at the front, back, and in the middle of trips.

Has somebody been preaching that "grass is greener at FedEX" song again?!?

I can predict what will happen if a few Capts start bumping UPS/Fedex guys. The bumped crewmembers will complain to their jumpseat cooridnator, that jumpseat cooridnator will complain to your jumpseat cooridnator, and your jumpseat cooridnator will ask you why you violated the ALPA recommedations/policy on this issue. It's your jumpseat to do with as you please but there is a lot of protocol and history that has shown courtesy to the freight dawgs. We appreciate the jumpseats and look forward to being able to make it up to you some day.

I agree 100%. There's nothing we would like better than to offer the jumpseats to our brethren industry-wide. If it were up to us.... but it simply ain't.

The ball's NOT in our court.

 

[TonyC]

Re: flying4life -

I think you misunderstood Caveman. He was merely stating, with a great amount of merit, that it is a matter of principle. He is not advocating making it pilot vs pilot. He was saying that the only way to get across to FedEx and UPS management that it is a problem is to deny their pilots a seat when they need to get to work.

OK, let me see if I understand you. If I'm trying to commute to Memphis to start a trip and I ask for your jumpseat, you can send a message to FedEx management by denying me a ride, and leaving me stranded to miss my trip. I get removed from my trip, I lose the pay, I probably get reprimanded by my Chief Pilot, and risk termination if it happens again.

And that's not "pilot vs. pilot"?!?!?

I don't think we misunderstood Caveman at all. He advocates sticking it to the pilot so the pilot will get off his lazy bumm and fix the jumpseat problem. That view of the problem is incredibly short-sighted. Ask yourself why you can't ride in the cockpit jumpseat of a Delta jet. Is it because the lazy Delta pilots are too busy counting their money to get off their lazy bumms to get the problem fixed?!?! Be real.

I suggest you try some version of the "pilot-to-_____" strategy next time you walk the gauntlet at the Pax terminal. Tell the TSA guy you're not gonna take off your shoes this time until they develop a more reasonable screening process. I'm sure the Director of the TSA will hear your message loud and clear.

 

[active_herk]

Paid tickets to work

I'm personally hoping for tickets from home of record in the next contract, like FEDEX has.

TonyC is correct in stating that we don't have this policy in place. Also, if you do try to get this worked into your contract, talk with some Atlas guys about it. They have it, but it isn't such a good deal because the company now figures that since they are footing the bill on the commute, there is no reason to pay you. In effect, you are working for free on your paid ticket to and from work. Your pay doesn't start until you are on your operating leg. I would make sure that if you get this stipulation worked into your contract, that you make sure your pay reflects your deadhead time as paid time and not free time. If you could get this, it would be an awesome policy! Good luck.

 

[de727ups]

TonyC and ActiveHerk

TonyC. Thanks for explaining it better. As for the grass is greener at FEDEX. In reference to this issue, the grass IS greener at FEDEX...just not as green as I thought.

ActiveHerk. It would suck to not get paid for your commercial deadhead days. That would never fly for us as it would be a step backwards.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Re: TonyC and ActiveHerk

TonyC. Thanks for explaining it better. As for the grass is greener at FEDEX. In reference to this issue, the grass IS greener at FEDEX...just not as green as I thought.

TonyC, I used to have about 20 FedEx baseball caps compliments of your company. I'm down to 2. You know who has the rest? My UPS buddies. Can only guess as to why. I don't have any UPS baseball caps but UPS helped me get my wings. For that, I am forever grateful.
P.S. Got any more hats ?

 

[TonyC]

Re: Re: TonyC and ActiveHerk

TonyC, I used to have about 20 FedEx baseball caps compliments of your company. I'm down to 2.

Can I have one?!?!

 

[profile]

Tony C writes:

Although it's not the preferred method, some lines are bulit with Company deadheads at the front, back, and in the middle of trips.

Just to clarify, those deadheads are not scheduled on company aircraft, at least they're not supposed to be. Sometimes you see that in unusual circumstances, out of SFS, for example, but even then they're supposed to be built in the pairing as a regular deadhead.