Update on Pinnacle CRJ crash

[dondk]

After reading what I wrote about the "green line".. I thought about it and realized what a stupid comment. Then again, since I was one for the fortunate (tounge in cheek) to be taught by that ramper.. I was always under the impression to stay "above" the green line regardless of flight conditions.

It was pounded into our heads that being below the green line=stall and an unrecoverable one at that.

As for filing at 410... In 3 years they have filed me there only once and it was NOT a repo flight. Who knows or cares why they were at 410.. whatever happened could have happened a lot lower with a lot less time to try to get it working again.... At least they had altitude on their side...

 

[surplus1]

Speculation, although not helpful, is only natural. As long as no effort is made to affix or imply "blame" on the part of the flight crew, it doesn't seem to hurt much.

Right now there are so many unknowns that it's difficult to even make educated guesses about much of anything.

It is assumed that both engines failed @ FL410 since somebody from the NTSB apparently said so. Truth is we don't even know if that really happened. Presuming that it did, at this point we certainly have no idea as to why. Until we know the cause of the alleged dual engine failure it's again difficult to guess what might have happened next.

Those that know the airplane have assumed that the RAT deployed, automatically or manually like it's supposed to but we don't really know. An educated guess indicates that it did, since the bird was apparently not "out of control". However, we don't know if all of its functions were working as they're supposed to.

At this point we do not know if an attempt to start the APU was made or if it was successful. If it was not successful, we don't know why. If it was successful we don't know when. Maybe the thing was deferred.

We don't know if a relight was attempted, how many times it was attempted, where it was attempted (altitude), what methods were tried or why it apparently was not successful on either engine.

We don't know what assistance was requested from ATC or what they provided. We don't know what suitable airports may have been available nor whay a particular one was selected, IF it was.

Only the folks from Pinnacle know what type of training is provided by their airline for flight crews or for support/ground personnel. We don't know what procedures they may have in place re fuel contamination or if they were followed. It should be no surprise they're "not talking", which is the right thing to do.

Although not frequent, we know that things do happen in airplanes that have not happened previously and for which no training is provided. We do not know if such an event took place this time and we do not know if it didn't. I could go on almost forever.

The bottom line is we probably will not know what really happened for a year or more. Then again we may never know and be forced to speculate forever.

It is hard to understand how a modern airplane could lose power in both engines at the same time. It's even harder to understand how four out of four could all fail at once. Nevertheless, both have happened before.

There is one thing we do know with reasonable certainty and that is that this flight crew didn't give up and didn't stop flying until the point of impact. Sometimes that is all we can ask of airmen.

May God rest their souls and bring peace to their families, friends and coworkers. We must all go West at some time and this was theirs.

 

[Ailerongirl]

Well said Surplus.

Again, may God bless both familes, and help them through their time of great grief.

 

[Twotter76]

Dual flameout at FL410 would lead to an instance of no hydraulics=no flight controls. The ADG (RAT) auto deploys, but only powers pump 3B which gives full primary controls. But at FL410, the effective amperage of the ADG has been in question since production. That's why there are those crazy ADG limitations (at least I'm told so). Additionally, manual reversion of flight controls at FL410, if large enough, MAY have an aerodynamic consequence on aerodynamic stall.

Just a quick note most of what you say above is correct however as you point out IF the ADG doesn't produce enough amperage to run the hydraulic system then you have NO manual reversion of the flight controls - i.e. you have about as much control as Oprah at an all you can eat buffet. Without power your flight controls would simply flutter about. Try it in the sim sometime - the aircraft can be controlled by power and electric trim alone if you lose all three hydraulic systems but with no hydraulic and no engine thrust you are a dead man walking (well - falling rapidly actually).

Our thoughts are with the families of those who have gone west. I think it was Yeager (or maybe Hoover) that said - "there are two bad things that can happen to you in an airplane; you can walk out to the plane not knowing its your last day in an airplane; or you can walk out to the plane knowing its your last day. One of them will happen to all of us sooner or later.

 

[hmmm]

"Green line" is not a low-speed cue in cruise flight. It is an angle of attack indication superimposed over the speed tape that gives you a reference while performing a flaps 45 approach. .

Correct :

From Bombardier Service Letter: RJ-SL-27-052

"The design of the low speed awareness cue has been optimized for use during departure and approach."