Update on Pinnacle CRJ crash

[leardrivr]

I have had the pleasure of experincing many flame outs my self and never had a problem with handiling or speed control./QUOTE]




Reeeaaalllyyyy??? How many is many? You must be pretty unlucky.

Oh about a dozen or more. We have a fleet of 11 lear 20 series airplanes with G.E. CJ-610's. We also have our own engine shop! see were im going with this. Ask any freight lear pilot running old run out straight turbo-jet engines for a freight outfit and you will find flame-outs are fairly common. Usualy it turns out to be a bad fcu or some fod damage.

 

[acaTerry]

To answer the earlier question about the RAT:
It's been a while, and I'm in new equip, but if I remember right...
Dual flameout at FL410 would lead to an instance of no hydraulics=no flight controls. The ADG (RAT) auto deploys, but only powers pump 3B which gives full primary controls. But at FL410, the effective amperage of the ADG has been in question since production. That's why there are those crazy ADG limitations (at least I'm told so). Additionally, manual reversion of flight controls at FL410, if large enough, MAY have an aerodynamic consequence on aerodynamic stall. Never got that much out of a CRJ, but at least something to at least consider. So they may have been without controls for a short time. By FL300, the ECU will allow a start of the APU, but an APU assisted start is not possible until 13,000 feet. I would guess that they were trying to get that 300 kts for a windmill start. As any CRJ pilot knows, there is also a possibility for sensory overload b/c of the way many of the EICAS warnings will continue to annoy you with delayed annunciations when you are already busy.
I'm not playing investigator here. I am just of the opinion that these poor guys had one of the very worst things that can happen at the worst time. Their dead, so it is also likely that there will be people (pardon my crudeness) "pi$$ing on their graves" with speculations and "what I would have done's". Whatever happened will come out eventually, but either way I think they did a he11 of a job by preserving life on the impact site and I hope to God that everyone will have the class and decency to hold off on silly arguments or anything like that. Lets all be safe out there and keep these guys in our prayers (anti-religious folks lay off-we have 2 dead pilots here!).

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Sick airplanes and performance limits, a few thoughts....

Probably just for the heck of it. The airplane won't even reach that altitude with pax on board, just not enough thrust. So when we do the ocassional empty flight, a lot of guys have gone up there just to say they have - nothing wrong with it as long as you're inside the "envelope" - I've had Lears up at 51,0 all day long as well as this airplane up at 41,0 twice.

I hate to speculate or make comments about what could have happened. However, I would like to share a thought. In general, I would think if you had to fly an MX ferry that one would not want to push the envelope at all.

If I had an A/C with a bleed, pack, pressurization problem or anything related to those systems, I would not take it to FL410 for the heck of it (I'm not saying that's what the crew did.). I would probably use FL 250 as a max parameter, as if one pack were inop.

Maybe the company plans a high altitiude flight to save gas, but with a sick air plane, I woud fly lower.

I have had the opportunity to fly some MD80s out of heavy MX. It is interesting putting the plane through it's paces and checking all the systems, but it is never a joyride.

This has been a bad week for A/Cs and their crews. Let's fly safe!

 

[efiscompmon]

Maybe the company plans a high altitiude flight to save gas

yeah. maybe. just like maybe D.W. is the bloated son of the devil...

 

[Oakum_Boy]

"Green line" is not a low-speed cue in cruise flight. It is an angle of attack indication superimposed over the speed tape that gives you a reference while performing a flaps 45 approach. Bombardier says that it indicates a speed. That is indirectly true. If you are flying at exactly 1.27 Vs0 at MLW. on a flap 45 approach, that AOA green line will be centered over the speed display, indicating you are on the correct AOA for a MLW landing. If you are flying at an AOA greater than that, it will appear above the speed you are flying. Speed up, and your AOA will decrease, and the green line will move toward the center of the speed tape.

The Super-advanced Collins equipment (tounge in cheek) does not continuously update the 1.27 Vs0 speed based on aircraft weight. Notice how it bounces around in turbulence, even at cruise levels? That is because your angle of attack is changing in turbulent conditions. If it appears at cruise (as it does in both, more so in the -200), it simply indicates that you are flying somewhere close to the 1.27 Vs0 AOA.

Yes, some have come to equate a critical speed with the "green line". But, if your gear isn't down, and flaps 45, it has no real meaning. In Europe the "green line" isn't an installed option. They know that the low-speed cue is the critical information during flight. The low-speed barber pole is the area to avoid.

The CRJ is not capable of operating in a true "coffin corner". It is possible though, that turbulence, or a bleed surge may have disrupted the airflow enough that the engines could not recover from the ensuing compressor stall(s). RIP guys.

 

[enigma]

training

What kind of high altitude specific training does Pinnacle give to it's pilots?

Or, what kind of high altitude specific training does any airline provide for it's pilots?

I've only received airline provided, high altitude/high speed training as the result of one of my fellow pilots managing to get into a true high altitude stall. (about five years ago, search the ntsb if you need details.) Other than that, my altitude/speed training came from Simu-flite/FlightSafety during my corporate pilot training. Unfortunately (for it's implications) the level of detail in training I received in the corporate side, exceeds the detail I've received from any airline. Spirit, my current employer, has some excellent instructors and the sim training is first rate. GS is good but just too rushed to enable the instructors to give a lot of detail. Simuflite gave me a specific high/fast training module that included a trip to the altitude chamber. Personally, I don't think that anyone should ever get over FL390 without having been specifically trained in high/fast ops. Their just isn't that much margin/cushion when things go wrong up there.

I hope that they guys at Pinnacle didn't find themselves at an altitude that put them over their heads when the do-do hit the fan. If so, blame the company, not the pilots.

enigma

 

[Lear70]

What kind of high altitude specific training does Pinnacle give to it's pilots?

Very little. There's not enough time during the training to really cover that type of flying well, plus 90% of our flights happen from 19,0 to 33,0 so I guess they figure "why bother". =(

 

[Oakum_Boy]

What kind of high altitude specific training does Pinnacle give to it's pilots?

Or, what kind of high altitude specific training does any airline provide for it's pilots?

enigma

At a competitor, not nearly enough. Flying at the max certified altitude is not intended for novelty.

 

[ArcticFlier]

"Green line" is not a low-speed cue in cruise flight. It is an angle of attack indication superimposed over the speed tape that gives you a reference while performing a flaps 45 approach. Bombardier says that it indicates a speed. That is indirectly true. If you are flying at exactly 1.27 Vs0 at MLW. on a flap 45 approach, that AOA green line will be centered over the speed display, indicating you are on the correct AOA for a MLW landing. If you are flying at an AOA greater than that, it will appear above the speed you are flying. Speed up, and your AOA will decrease, and the green line will move toward the center of the speed tape.

The Super-advanced Collins equipment (tounge in cheek) does not continuously update the 1.27 Vs0 speed based on aircraft weight. Notice how it bounces around in turbulence, even at cruise levels? That is because your angle of attack is changing in turbulent conditions. If it appears at cruise (as it does in both, more so in the -200), it simply indicates that you are flying somewhere close to the 1.27 Vs0 AOA.

Yes, some have come to equate a critical speed with the "green line". But, if your gear isn't down, and flaps 45, it has no real meaning. In Europe the "green line" isn't an installed option. They know that the low-speed cue is the critical information during flight. The low-speed barber pole is the area to avoid.

The CRJ is not capable of operating in a true "coffin corner". It is possible though, that turbulence, or a bleed surge may have disrupted the airflow enough that the engines could not recover from the ensuing compressor stall(s). RIP guys.

You beat me to it..........the green line has nothing to do with cruise flight. It's essentially for approaches. 1.27 VsO

AF

 

[efiscompmon]

Amazing how much bad information makes it through the schoolhouse when half your initial cadre pinks and ground school is taught by a ramper with a flair for the dramatic.