Up graded Citation Ten coming soon.

[cherry20's]

Isn't NJ getting rid of some of their older X's and buying some new ones? Heard that FLOPS is buying them... Guess thats where they are getting their "new" X's from?!? Anyone heard that?

The new Ten does look like a sweet bird either way!

 

[DAS at 10/250]

http://www.aopa.org/nbaa/2010/101018ten.html?WT.mc_id=101019special


http://www.thetenarrives.com/

The G5000 will be a nice addition.

Winglets on a Citation. Yeah. Welcome to 1977 Cessna.

 

[Mike Jenvey]

Trying to find the article (AIN perhaps??) but there was a very interesting discussion recently as to why Citation should be looking to up-date or upgrade other fleets (medium size??) before going down the Ten route.......

 

[BoilerUP]

Upgrading "The Ten" is a relatively low-cost endeavor for Cessna; its basically the Sovereign fuselage (which was a little longer than X) with new engines (probably derated versions of the new 3007A2 for the Legacy 650) and Winglet Partners sails, a redesigned interior and a new avionics package...and an allegedly higher MMo. No additional fuel or baggage capacity, no bigger fuselage cross-section, no redesigned wing, nada. It also will provide them a "test bed" for putting G5000 in Sovereign (ending the Honeywell EPIC nightmare for Cessna) and possibly down into smaller models.

That's a LOT less R&D expense than would be necessary for a clean-sheet replacement for Excel, or even putting a Sovereign wing on that fuselage.

Besides, I don't think anybody really thinks they outright killed Fatation (aka Columbus) as their top-of-the-line aircraft...its probably waiting for next year's NBAA, hopefully after the industry furthers its turnaround, and hopefully tweaked even more to compete better in that crowded segment.

 

[ProFracPilot]

Upgrading "The Ten" is a relatively low-cost endeavor for Cessna; its basically the Sovereign fuselage (which was a little longer than X) with new engines (probably derated versions of the new 3007A2 for the Legacy 650) and Winglet Partners sails, a redesigned interior and a new avionics package...and an allegedly higher MMo. No additional fuel or baggage capacity, no bigger fuselage cross-section, no redesigned wing, nada. It also will provide them a "test bed" for putting G5000 in Sovereign (ending the Honeywell EPIC nightmare for Cessna) and possibly down into smaller models.

That's a LOT less R&D expense than would be necessary for a clean-sheet replacement for Excel, or even putting a Sovereign wing on that fuselage.

Besides, I don't think anybody really thinks they outright killed Fatation (aka Columbus) as their top-of-the-line aircraft...its probably waiting for next year's NBAA, hopefully after the industry furthers its turnaround, and hopefully tweaked even more to compete better in that crowded segment.

Cessna has made their mark in the industry over the last 20 years or so with this successful philosophy. The Bravo, The Encore, The Excel and the Sovereign: These are the Mr. Potato Heads of airplanes - which isn't a bad thing. Not only has Cessna invested their R&D dollars wisely, they have created niche markets and then are able to quickly fill them. Definitely not the same Cessna Aircraft Co. I worked for 30+ years ago.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Cessna has made their mark in the industry over the last 20 years or so with this successful philosophy. The Bravo, The Encore, The Excel and the Sovereign: These are the Mr. Potato Heads of airplanes - which isn't a bad thing. Not only has Cessna invested their R&D dollars wisely, they have created niche markets and then are able to quickly fill them. Definitely not the same Cessna Aircraft Co. I worked for 30+ years ago.

After moving into my first Citation in 2008 (Sovereign) I was amazed at how this company has been so successful. The 680 was hands down the biggest POS I have ever strapped into. The handling was horrible, the interior was cheap, the technology was 1985'ish, and the fit and finish was worse then GM.

Marketing, price, support, or something else, but I don't know what has driven their success. I can't see how it was their product.

 

[ProFracPilot]

The 680 was hands down the biggest POS I have ever strapped into.

You should have seen the POS Citations that were rolling off the line in 1979 . I was working in Citation factory flight test at the time. The paint and interior were horrendous, but people were buying these things as fast as we could roll them out the door.

I took delivery of a new Ultra (as a customer) in 1995. By that time I had been involved with some high-level completions on other aircraft, and thought I had a pretty good idea what to look for on a delivery shakedown. I could only find 2 minor paint issues and NO interior issues with the Ultra. Frankly I was amazed.

So the quality of Cessna's completions are cyclic. The fact remains they cover a broad array of market niches with their family of business jets, and have probably spent (compared to other manufacturers) minimal R&D dollars doing so.

 

[jtf]

Isn't NJ getting rid of some of their older X's and buying some new ones? Heard that FLOPS is buying them... Guess thats where they are getting their "new" X's from?!? Anyone heard that?

The new Ten does look like a sweet bird either way!

I think it has been a little while since NJA took any new ones, but NJA was trading in some of the oldest Xs for brand new ones- directly to Cessna. I think around 10 were traded in.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

You should have seen the POS Citations that were rolling off the line in 1979 . I was working in Citation factory flight test at the time. The paint and interior were horrendous, but people were buying these things as fast as we could roll them out the door.

I took delivery of a new Ultra (as a customer) in 1995. By that time I had been involved with some high-level completions on other aircraft, and thought I had a pretty good idea what to look for on a delivery shakedown. I could only find 2 minor paint issues and NO interior issues with the Ultra. Frankly I was amazed.

So the quality of Cessna's completions are cyclic. The fact remains they cover a broad array of market niches with their family of business jets, and have probably spent (compared to other manufacturers) minimal R&D dollars doing so.

I don't doubt that. I don't think anyone can put an airplane from paper to customer faster then Cessna.

In my initial the one constant was that the guys (yes, it was an all male class) who were coming out of other Citations were impressed with all of the "improvements" with the 680 while those who were coming out of other manufacturers airplanes were not.

 

[BoilerUP]

DAS, given that you've flown the LR31 and the 45 I'm kind of surprised you were disappointed in the Sovereign.

I mean sure it doesn't fly as fast/high as the Lears, but it takes more payload (and a shiat ton more bags) a further distance off a shorter runway with more advanced avionics than either airframe. As far as handling goes, given all the above you're almost like comparing a Corvette (Lears) to an Escalade (Sovereign).


Also, the only 40-series I've ever been in was a Flex airplane and its cabin was nice enough, but I haven't been impressed with the interior of any 30-series I've ever seen.

But hey, thus far I've been a "Citation guy"...

 

[Sparse]

I'd expect NetJets to place a larger order for Phenom 450/500s before they place an order for "The Ten".

Even more jobs moving out of the U.S. Thanks NJs

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Even more jobs moving out of the U.S. Thanks NJs

65% of the Phenom 100/300 is US sourced and the completion center is in Florida.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

DAS, given that you've flown the LR31 and the 45 I'm kind of surprised you were disappointed in the Sovereign.

I mean sure it doesn't fly as fast/high as the Lears, but it takes more payload (and a shiat ton more bags) a further distance off a shorter runway with more advanced avionics than either airframe. As far as handling goes, given all the above you're almost like comparing a Corvette (Lears) to an Escalade (Sovereign).


Also, the only 40-series I've ever been in was a Flex airplane and its cabin was nice enough, but I haven't been impressed with the interior of any 30-series I've ever seen.

But hey, thus far I've been a "Citation guy"...

The 680 has a smaller cockpit then the 40 series (no lateral knee room, some slopped panel to slice my knee caps off, manual foot pedals, no floor heater, seats worse then a Lear, didn't know that was possible), is 20 years behind in technology (C340 cabin alt controller and C421 panel layout, FADEC engines but no auto rollback on rapid D?), handles like a f!@#$ dump truck on a good day (apologies to Mack truck), has an autopilot that will try to kill you in an overspeed situation, can't fly on V bars, can't display a map on the PFD, APU's that won't stay lit, a cluster fudge of an FMS, fuel tanks that won't fill matched, can't transfer fuel, low wing loading providing a HORRIBLE and MISERABLE ride for the pax and me, and more I could probably remember if I hadn't been out of it for 10 months.

The 680 does short runways (so does the CL30) and climbs great to FL180. After that it dies, won't climb, and won't run over .68 until you're under 6K lbs gas.

Don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware of the short comings in both the LR31 and 40/45 but I'd take a 40 series any day of the week and twice on Sundays over the 680. Hell, I'd be grinning out my ass to leave it forever and get back into a King Air. Nothing about the 680 instills confidence or displays a well thought out airplane.

Again, there were eight of us in initial. The only ones impressed were those coming out of other Citations (mostly X's). The rest of us were scratching our heads wondering Whiskey Tango Fox.

JMHO. YMMV.

 

[NJAowner]

Having flown in both in the back and not considering $$, I would sit in the 680 and take my family and vacation baggage over the Lr 45 any day. But that is the decision from the back not the front.

 

[jonjuan]

Even more jobs moving out of the U.S. Thanks NJs

Over 80% of the Phenom 300 is made and completed in FLL. Embraer was smart to do this as they saw the potential protectionist writing on the wall.