Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Universal Seniority List?

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Do you want more money to fly planes? Support legislation that excludes people without <requirement>. Personally, I'd make it an educational requirement...specifically a Master's degree in something real (read: non-aviation). While "education" really isn't necessary to fly airplanes, it would do wonders for compensation levels and public opinion. Hours are great, but I've tried to give simple VFR 135.293 check rides to +5,000hr airline pilots who couldn't make decisions without checklists or navigate on their own to save their lives. Hours alone aren’t reliable indicators of a pilot’s competence or confidence.

If you really think about it, meritocracies are where the money is. Doctors, lawyers, and engineers must be competent* to make money. They don’t need unions because their services are inherently valuable. They don’t need seniority lists because they take pride in their work and know that they can only move forward be being better than their competitors.

Until the ACTUAL value of pilot labor is increased (limited supply), wages will remain low and the vocation (it has the potential to be a profession) will not be respected.

*Intellectually competent, not “heavy machinery” competent.
 
Another big, fat NO to a USL.

It is hoplessly flawed on so many levels it will never happen, nor should it. Yet there are some things we as a profession can work towards to address some of the core issues of an otherwise hopeless pipe dream.

Maybe migrate towards some sort of national (union?) hiring list. Companies can hire (or not hire) anyone they want, in any order they want, off that list, but all hires must come off the list.

Then prioritize the erosion of the first year (and in many cases first two year) defacto B-scales. Take any legacy's 3rd year pay, minus 10% or so and that should be first year pay, no less. It is 100% reasonable to start over in pay, but equally as unreasonable to make starting over all too often such a devistating, sometimes borderline poverty level endeavor.

The logic behind such bottom light pay scales is, of course, to save more bargaining capital for the more senior, etc. Yet in doing so, when everyone does it (and everyone does it) industry wide devistating blows to mobility at every airline actually hurt everyone's bargaining power in the long run because any time someone is under the gun for concessions, it becomes a "sign it or die" (financially) scenario. The no concession is too deep as long as it preserves YOUR seniority list because YOU can't afford to start over and that is all of our faults for tolerating (and even endorsing) these bottom light defacto B-scales.

Also there needs to be a strong grassroots movement, be it at the union level or whatever, to educate pilots on basic finances. Anyone, at any airline, at any seniority, who goes out and over-extends themselves buying their "Captain's toys" to such an extent that if they lose their current job they go bankrupt, even if there are many other jobs out there, is one more nail in our collective coffin. We can still have nice things, just not until we can TRULY afford them and the hard reality of that really means in almost every case being able to pay cash, period. We as a profession need to live below our means, buy way WAY less on credit and at all times have or be working on a viable plan B. Not to mention lower our divorce rate and generally horrid investment track records. Delay material gratification (and "other" gratification as well) and put off the toys and houses until we can afford them with 100% comfort even if we lost our current jobs.

Looking at our monthly incomes and saying "gee how much can I leverage through credit with this monthly nut" and then going out and doing it is directly responsibile for much of our own torture at the hands of management because they absolutely know the fiscal and psychological forces our collective behavior has in the negoating room. We need to take that away from them and if we don't, we will forever be their whipping boys in all but the most roaring of good times in the negoating room (and even that will be short lived, as we all know).

So a big, fat, hairy, steaming HECK NO to a USL (and ROFLMFAO @ a DOH USL!!!!!! LAWL!!!!!!! Gold Standard? BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! OMFG!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!)

But there ARE things we can do to accomplish a lot of the supposed gains of a USL without any of the obvious non starters.
 
I think a USL would not do us any good at this point. I mean how would it be implemented? Impossible. I think there is a route to go that might be viable. Have ALPA take charge of sick time, health care programs, vacation and whatever else is easily transfered and that way when you do go from one airline to the next it is not back to square one for sick time, vacation and 401k. also having AlPA taking care of the 401k would have someone with your best interests in mind managing the account rather than the company. just an idea
 
also having AlPA taking care of the 401k would have someone with your best interests in mind managing the account rather than the company. just an idea
LOL. Why doesn't alpa simply start up its own airline? Can you imagine how smooth things would run? It truly would be the last interview one would ever have!
 
Still not answered is why it wouldn't work? Let's say I got my ATP Jan 2001 and made my way through the regionals and now fly at Airline A. Airline A has stagnated and is starting to ask for pay cuts so I jump ship and go to Airline B who is hiring and expanding. With this list I wouldn't be last on the list but would fit right between the two guys that got their ATP right before me and right after me. Along with that I get the same pay as a "9 year" pilot as well as the same ability to hold a line. Sure I would jump in front of some guys hired before me but I have been "flying longer" and should have more experience so that should be unfounded since that is how it works in the rest of the world right? I would also think that it would eliminate the need for a union since if a pilot felt under appreciated he could jump ship as well. If enough pilots left, the airline might have to rethink the requested cuts as well as make their pay commesurate what would be needed to keep their labor force. I just think that something like this would allow a pilot to move where they felt would benefit their bottom line the best with out the loss of a significant investment in time they have already made.
 
Ok why would the company hire you with higher labor cost. Why would the other airline make you take a pay cut. The only way it would work would be that everyone was paid the same by the UNION for the same seat and same equipment. So in reality what your saying is I can go get my ATP then have an entirely different career until I can hold 747 captain then just show up at any airline and take my right full spot! Yeah no flaws in this idea at all.
 
Well you would have to be hired first and why couldn't the fact that you have no experience be held against you? As for labor costs they are the smallest expense an airline has and they are going to have to pay someone that money either way right? They would for sure have the option of hiring someone with less experience and therefore less costs. It would be up to them but if they did hire you that would be the baggage you came with...as well as the wealth of knowledge you bring with you.
 
Every year this thread rears it's head. A NSL is a simplistic, unattainable wailing wall for those who have wound up at the wrong airline. We all new the rules getting in. Don't try to change them at half-time.
 
No way. Put the shoe on the other foot. You started at airline B. The airline has been very successful and you are looking at an upgrade soon. Now comes another pilot from airline A who jumps ahead of you at your own airline. He gets the upgrade before you do. NO THANKS.
 
Still not answered is why it wouldn't work? Let's say I got my ATP Jan 2001

At that point you just answered your own question. So someone gets their ATP a day after you, works their butts off to go to their dream airline, then watches guys jump in front of them every new class because while he was at Brand X the whole time, someone else was flying B1900s somewhere else building seniority on top of him?

DOH via ATP issuance is perhaps one of the least workable ways to implement arguably the least workable solution (a USL/NSL) to address the issues we have in the profession.
 
Won't work untill,,,Pilot's control the work rules ie; pay scales, duty hours etc. However, untill then why bother to respect any other groups rules, picket lines and so forth. If there is to be no national concensus respecting seniority, wages and work rules, why respect the standards of the brand X pilot group down the street? I mean, intuitively we already understand this, which is why no major pilot group will strike again if management is willing to pay the cost of replaceing them. ALPA made the decission long ago to reject a national seniority list and now their a ghost. As was mentioned elsewhere on this board, the ALPA pin wearing UAL crews will probably recieve a cool welcome from the former, "non pin wearing" Frontier pilots at Continental.
 
...So in reality what your saying is I can go get my ATP then have an entirely different career until I can hold 747 captain then just show up at any airline and take my right full spot!

No one's going to hire you if you haven't flown a large widebody or B747 type if there are others applying with that experience.

Just as NYU isn't going to hire a a Dermatologist when they're trying to fill a Cardiothoracic Surgeon position.
 
I am so sorry to disagree with you. But USAir EAST was the FAILING airline. Now all of a sudden all the East guys are saying, it was an illusion. The company was doing fine but mngmt was fibbing about our doomed fate.

I was doing PHL redeyes during this fiasco. It was ugly and I do remember the "air" of desperation and sadness at the PHL airport. I prayed for you guys (East) to continue to operate, for I talked to a bunch of your commuters who were depressed and almost devastated with the looming shut down of USAir East.

I do not have a stake in this, the only thing I have is honest observation and nonemotional truth/remarks. Most of the EAST guys are BSing now or trying to position themselves for betterment.<---NOT FAIR AT ALL. Stop the koolaid drinking and accept your BINDING ARBITRATION.

On the other hand, AmericaWest just had started making small profits and shoring up their cash on hand to be able to purchase the East. The unfair part of this is that guys in the EAST with more seniority got stapled.

Sorry and CYA,

Spot on analysis. Well said!
 
Why not vote in and support legistation that seeks to stabilize this industry. Supposivley this industry is vital to the US economy, but the CEO's and Wall Street treat it like another gang bang whore.....
 
USL is a bad idea, but better than ATP date would be:

Years in service at a UNION 121 carrier or years furloughed instead of DOH.

If you quit a 121 carrier, your accrual stops.


Unforeseen consequences will arise of course. Here's one possibility:

A new airline starts up and offers good wages, and no seniority list.
Guys with low seniority decide to jump ship and upgrade quick. They then refuse to ever take the airline ALPA because they know that more senior guys from elsewhere can come over and push them down.

Management exploits this concern and keeps wages lower. More startups follow this plan and junior guys jump ship to those airlines in order to boost their careers.


The fatal flaw in the NSL/USL idea is that very few of it's advocates have thought through the unintended consequences. There are all kinds of potential traps in transitioning to such a system.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top