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United's pension decision "illegal": Agency demands explanation from troubled airline

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chperplt

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Joined
Nov 25, 2001
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United's pension decision "illegal": Agency demands explanation from troubled airline

United Airlines broke the law by promising lenders that it would stop making payments to its pension plans, federal regulators said Monday.

In a strongly worded letter to United Chief Executive Glenn Tilton, the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp. said the airline's plans were of "great concern" and "inconsistent" with pension and tax laws.

The agency, which would be on the hook if United dumped its pension plans entirely, demanded a detailed explanation from Elk Grove Township-based carrier at a meeting on Thursday.

The pension board wants United to continue funding the plans, saying the airline needs to know that "it's illegal to simply stop making contributions," said Randy Clerihue, a spokesman for the agency.

"It is definitely rare for a company in bankruptcy that stops making payments to later right the pension ship," Clerihue said.

United's pension plans are underfunded by at least $7.5 billion, the government says, and on Friday the carrier said it would stop making payments while in bankruptcy. The airline's deal with its lenders for $1 billion in bankruptcy loans prevents it from making the pension payments, United said.

Indeed, United has acknowledged that it is considering pension cuts to attract additional outside investment it needs to emerge from bankruptcy.

The pension board, however, said although it doesn't like where United appears to be headed with its pensions, it needs more information about the carrier's plans.

"What we have here is a case where not enough was said by the company," Clerihue said.

The International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers welcomed the pension agency's scrutiny.

"The company should be ashamed that the PBGC has shown more concern for United's active and retired employees than the carrier has," said union spokesman Joseph Tiberi.

The letter sent Monday from pension board Executive Director Bradley Belt to Tilton said that stopping pension contributions is a "serious matter."

"The PBGC would like specific information regarding how [United parent] UAL intends to close the growing funding gap in these plans," Belt wrote.

And if United intends to terminate any of its pension plans, the board and workers "should be made aware of that fact as soon as possible," he cautioned.

United spokeswoman Jean Medina said the company received the letter and plans to meet with the agency to "discuss the issues directly."

The pension board has said it estimated last year that it could fund about $5 billion of the $7.5 billion shortfall in United's pension plans. It would be the largest pension failure in the agency's history.

Zvi Bodie, a professor of finance at Boston University, said the pension board finds itself in an unusual position with United.

"It's got the PBGC pretty upset, because it's going to be a big liability falling right in their lap. They would like to avert it if they can," Bodie said.

Gary Ford, a former general counsel for the agency, said the warning letter to United is not its usual business practice.

"They have certainly done it before, but it is not a routine action," Ford said.

If United abandons its pension plans, how much money is on hand will become a critical issue, experts say.

That is because the agency will try to spend as much of the money as possible on people who have retired within the last three years or were eligible to do so, experts said.

The rationale for this, they said, is that these workers are less likely to be able to make up for the losses in their pension benefits.

As low interest rates and a troubled stock market have pummeled corporate pension plans in the last few years, the pension board has grown increasingly concerned about its long-term financial health.

In June the agency said that the total shortfall for companies with underfunded plans came to $287.6 billion. That number was down from a $305 billion total a year earlier, but it was a marked increase from 1999, when the total shortfall was $18.4 billion.

Since its birth 30 years ago as protection for workers suddenly faced with collapsed pension plans, more than two-thirds of the agency's applications from troubled companies have come from the airline and steel industries.

Besides coming to the rescue of pension plans for Eastern, Pan American, TWA and other airlines, the agency recently was called upon to support the pension plan for US Airways pilots.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/printedition/chi-0407270355jul27,1,1339454.story?coll=chi-printnews-hed

 
Not good. If memory serves me correctly, the PBGC can petition the court for an involintary BK filing (in this case changing UAL from an 11 to a 7) to liquidate assets to cover the pension deficit. They were one of the biggest problems during the EAL bankruptcy, and I think they did in fact attach and liquidate some of Eastern's assets.

I didn't think they were going to be able to just "stop paying". This is going to get very ugly and will be one of the main obstacles for UAL to emerge from bankruptcy.
 
The other question is..

If their loans are tied to not having pension payments what happens to the loans?

Sounds like they may be between a rock and a hard place..Make the payments and the bank pulls their loan..

Dont make the payments and they get forced into 7 to sell off assets to cover the pension loss..

Anybody care to guess what if any options they may have?

Mike
 
not many

I am not a Harvard MBA specializing in airline finance, so with that disclaimer....

my opinion, options? not many

UAL management already came out on record saying that "not paying into pension plan" was going to save $500 million in contributions while it tries to manage things

discussed here

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/040723/airlines_united_pensions_1.html

according to this (below), UAL did in fact obtain $500 million in Debtor-In-Possession financing. Check this figure with the "we just decided to not pay XXX amount into the pensions"

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040723/cgf024_1.html


SO----> Guess what happens to the lights when

1) I was going stop Junior's allowance to pay electic bill
2) I got a loan from Hometown USA Bank to pay my electic bill
3) Uncle Sam says, no, you gotta pay junior per the law, and by the way, the electric bill is due in 30 days

take guess what happens to the lights in 30 days
 
Mike,

Nice to see you back on board!! You have been missed!!

Thanks For all you input & help
Mrs. Hooch
 
satpak77 said:
according to this (below), UAL did in fact obtain $500 million in Debtor-In-Possession financing. Check this figure with the "we just decided to not pay XXX amount into the pensions"

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040723/cgf024_1.html
Interesting.

I find it hard to believe these $500/ hr attorneys could overlook a problem with the PBGC, but stranger things have happened. One only has to look at the Eastern debacle to see how this is going to play out. Uncle Sam will get his money one way or another.

One thing is for sure, if the court does in fact uphold any motions by the PBGC, the only recourse UAL will have to raise cash is to sell assets, unless the banks and creditors relax their DIP covenants. Something I seriously doubt because they don't give a crap about the employees or their retirements.

My prediction is time is running out for some major changes. Say what you want people, but the status quo simply can not continue.
 
No doubt about it. Get ready to compete with UAL's fleet --- operated in some way shape or form under a much lower cost structure in the near future. The race to the bottom is bound to accelerate. All defined benefit plans in this industry, and in fact in this country, are finished.
 
Wouldn't be a bit surprised to find out United planned on the PBGC stepping in, just to agree that "United can no longer fund its pensions and maintain itself as a going concern", and allow the liquidation of some if not all the different union's pensions.

While the PBGC of course doesn't want that at all, it takes quite a bit of the responsibility for terminating the pensions away from management and puts it squarely on the shoulders of the PBGC when United's management simply says, "It was out of our hands - we tried to shortcut the system for now by not paying until we had the money to pay in the future but the PBGC said 'No' and now the PBGC is making us terminate your pension plan."

Or maybe I've just read too many conspiracy theory novels lately...
 
Yeah, nothing overlooked abut any of it. The revised DIP financing is conditional on UAL making no payments to the pensions. Is the PBGC going to posture about it before they get the pensions dumped on them? Already are. Don't you think the PBGC, ATSB, and the rest of the Federal gov knew this was coming when they turned down the loan guarantee? If you work for another major with an A fund, yours is gone too, just going to take longer. There are just too many that will fly for somebody else who is not making those massive pension payments. Are the unions going to posture? Big time. It comes down to losing the A plan, or being stubborn and losing the A plan and a job. I think all but the hardcore union do or die folks know pensions are on the way out unless you work for uncle sam, whether you fly, work in a factory, whatever. The fact is, if you are smart enough even to match a little of the B fund, you are in pretty good shape. I feel sorry for the guys already retired who are going to eat it. Even pre 9-11, almost every Captain I flew with said don't count on the A fund - max the 401K.
 
Boeingman said:
Interesting.

I find it hard to believe these $500/ hr attorneys could overlook a problem with the PBGC, but stranger things have happened. One only has to look at the Eastern debacle to see how this is going to play out. Uncle Sam will get his money one way or another.

One thing is for sure, if the court does in fact uphold any motions by the PBGC, the only recourse UAL will have to raise cash is to sell assets, unless the banks and creditors relax their DIP covenants. Something I seriously doubt because they don't give a crap about the employees or their retirements.

My prediction is time is running out for some major changes. Say what you want people, but the status quo simply can not continue.
I don't think it's a mistake either. I think the plan was to have the PBGC say they can't stop making payments, so United goes to the Bankruptcy judge and say's there's no other way they can get financing. Then they ask the judge for a distress termination of the pension plans. The underfunded plans get turned over to the PBGC and United has killed the pension plans.
 
Hi Hooch..

Had to step away from the board for awhile..

All the negative stuff/atitudes took the fun out of it.

I will try to be more active here for those I might be able to help..

Mike
 
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If in fact this is an actual plan on the part of UAL managment,dont be surprised if/when the employees try to burn the place down..

Just think..Many years ago you decided to make your decision of which job you would take based on their benefits and retirement..
And just as you come within a few years of taking advantage of those benefits they get yanked leaving you with pennies on the dollar or even worse..nothing..

Oh..And by the way..You are too old to try to work someplace else and recover from your losses..

And the government says your are too young to collect Social Security..

I wonder what would happen if several thousand retired airline employees as well as those currently employed would show up in Washington DC and sit on the steps at the capitol..

Screw ALPA.
Screw unions in general..Their policies have put thousands out of work while trying to create a larger POLITICAL power base in Washington..

What we need isa bunch of pissed off folks that just got their whole retirement wiped out marching on Washington.

Thats when you will see real movement on the part of some people in the government..When they think THEIR job is on the line next election..

Unless people in this country stand up and make loud,ugly noises and attract some attention to whats happening to them..Then UAL,DAL,AA, ect ect will continue to have their way with their employees..

Would somebody please hand me a small paper bag..

I think im hyperventilating...

Mike
 
skykid said:
Yeah, nothing overlooked abut any of it. The revised DIP financing is conditional on UAL making no payments to the pensions. Is the PBGC going to posture about it before they get the pensions dumped on them? Already are. Don't you think the PBGC, ATSB, and the rest of the Federal gov knew this was coming when they turned down the loan guarantee? If you work for another major with an A fund, yours is gone too, just going to take longer. There are just too many that will fly for somebody else who is not making those massive pension payments. Are the unions going to posture? Big time. It comes down to losing the A plan, or being stubborn and losing the A plan and a job. I think all but the hardcore union do or die folks know pensions are on the way out unless you work for uncle sam, whether you fly, work in a factory, whatever. The fact is, if you are smart enough even to match a little of the B fund, you are in pretty good shape. I feel sorry for the guys already retired who are going to eat it. Even pre 9-11, almost every Captain I flew with said don't count on the A fund - max the 401K.
The ironic thing is that the government turned down the 1.6B loan guarantee only to be faced with assuming 5B pension liability when UAL terminates. At least that's consistent with this administration's policies thus far: fiscal insanity and anti labor mixed together.
 
The ironic thing is that the government turned down the 1.6B loan guarantee only to be faced with assuming 5B pension liability when UAL terminates


Under law/PBGC rules, the government is obligated to cover pension liabilities anyway.

Had they LOANED THEM the 1.6 Billion, (and they later could not pay it), then I could see that being a problem (and also having the PBGC problem above), but what they did so far with UAL (to me) does not seem abnormal
 
satpak77 said:
Had they LOANED THEM the 1.6 Billion, (and they later could not pay it), then I could see that being a problem (and also having the PBGC problem above), but what they did so far with UAL (to me) does not seem abnormal
Was not even a loan, it was a loan guarantee. No money from uncle sam unless UAL can't replay Citibank, Chase, etc.

Fly Safe.
 
If UAL got the loan guarantee, and later could not repay it the US taxpayer would be on the hook for both the loans and the pensions.
 
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roger

I guess that is my point, back-azz-backwards (sorry, from West Texas...)

If Govt had to step up to the plate in the event UAL could not pay back the lenders directly, PLUS also deal with PBGC issues, that would cause problems.

later
 
I only got one thing to say to anyone at UAL near retirement or in retirement TAKE YOUR MONEY OUT NOW!

Set up some kinda retirement account and keep it outta stocks. Please don't let yourselves get Enron'd.

Jobear
Puttin money in a coffe can...in a van down by the river
 
If their loans are tied to not having pension payments what happens to the loans?

They get renegoitated at a higher interest rate or more colateral has to be secured by DIP financing. Apparently the Citibank lawyers are smarter then the ones the UAL has retained. Anyway you put it. this will cost UAL more $$.


Sounds like they may be between a rock and a hard place..Make the payments and the bank pulls their loan..

Dont make the payments and they get forced into 7 to sell off assets to cover the pension loss..

Anybody care to guess what if any options they may have?

The problem is that just cost cutting will not generate the necessary revenue by the Sept/Oct pension payment deadline. The only other ways to generate the cash will be an asset sale (unlikly) or with MORE cut backs to employees. More wage bennie and personal cut backs, ouch. The banks will no doubt demand this because they want the assets in the event that UAL can not make the loan payments. The banks do not want to see the assets sold, they would much rater take them for themselves.

Mike[/QUOTE]
 

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