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Joined
Dec 5, 2004
Posts
225
WTF, OVER! How can an airline in dire straits, screwing it's employees, creditors and regionals, lying to the bankruptcy court, BSing the media, be allowed to expand? I mean come on. Bankruptcy for two years now, terminating pensions, pay cuts etc... Oh we are expanding to Hong Kong and Asia/China. I would be pissed if I were Northwest or Cathay or...United does not have to pay their bills and are lowering their costs through what is Carte Blanche of the bankruptcy court. I don't get it??? This crap has to stop! I mean enough of United already and USAir for that matter. Sorry for the employees but these airlines are KILLING the whole industry. The government has to step in. This has gotten way out of control.

New Bankruptcy laws have to be put in effect. If you file CH-11, you shut down until you are able to find financing and have a "REAL PLAN" Tilton and Larkfield, you ass-holes! just like in Europe. Also, governments have to prohibit airlines from operating like this. United should be prohibited from flying outside the US and competing against other carriers that PAY THEIR F****** BILLS AND EMPLOYEES! I cannot believe that foreign countries and even our country lets's this go on.
 
CommanderHoek said:
WTF, OVER! How can an airline in dire straits, screwing it's employees, creditors and regionals, lying to the bankruptcy court, BSing the media, be allowed to expand? I mean come on. Bankruptcy for two years now, terminating pensions, pay cuts etc... Oh we are expanding to Hong Kong and Asia/China. I would be pissed if I were Northwest or Cathay or...United does not have to pay their bills and are lowering their costs through what is Carte Blanche of the bankruptcy court. I don't get it??? This crap has to stop! I mean enough of United already and USAir for that matter. Sorry for the employees but these airlines are KILLING the whole industry. The government has to step in. This has gotten way out of control.

New Bankruptcy laws have to be put in effect. If you file CH-11, you shut down until you are able to find financing and have a "REAL PLAN" Tilton and Larkfield, you ass-holes! just like in Europe. Also, governments have to prohibit airlines from operating like this. United should be prohibited from flying outside the US and competing against other carriers that PAY THEIR F****** BILLS AND EMPLOYEES! I cannot believe that foreign countries and even our country lets's this go on.

I have a question: if United expands overseas, will they continue to shrink their domestic flying and/or farm it out to the regionals?

Also, I have to agree with you. I don't like to see anybody lose their jobs, but how much longer will weak airlines be allowed to continue operating under Ch.11? It's at the point where carriers like UAL are more or less a taxpayer-funded government subsidized project. If that's the case, and my tax money helps to float UAL, shouldn't we the taxpayers enjoy free travel on them?
 
"I have a question: if United expands overseas, will they continue to shrink their domestic flying and/or farm it out to the regionals?"

Ans: Yes, I believe the percentage was 14% decrease in domestic capacity too our regional feeders with an increase in internaional, were pricing is more elastic.


"If that's the case, and my tax money helps to float UAL, shouldn't we the taxpayers enjoy free travel on them"

I'm sorry did we get the ATSB loan? Bye the Bye did you get a free car from Chrysler or Amtran train passes?

Please we certainly have our problems, alot of them :)
But this we taxpayer subsidizing us shtick is gotten out of hand.

Enjoy the ride, you never know when the musics gonna stop for you.
 
CommanderH, are you really going to talk about no "real plan" in the same rant with Asian expansion? I guessing the developments in Asia might be part of the nonexistent plan. I can tell you thouroughly researched your post, so please add the list of bills United doesn't have to pay, and I'll compare that with the 10s of millions in legal fees so we have an informed analysis.

Clyde, I agree with the free travel, how about free travel on ALL carriers that got taxpayer money after 9/11? How about naming one that didn't. Even the carriers that didn't lose crews and planes, or have a major hub shut down for weeks, or didn't fly to Europe or Asia where loads went down below 30% for weeks or months got taxpayer money.
 
skykid said:
Clyde, I agree with the free travel, how about free travel on ALL carriers that got taxpayer money after 9/11? How about naming one that didn't. Even the carriers that didn't lose crews and planes, or have a major hub shut down for weeks, or didn't fly to Europe or Asia where loads went down below 30% for weeks or months got taxpayer money.

Yes, many if not all airlines received some kind of assistance after 9/11. However, only a select few, UAL included, are being kept on life support with our tax dollars. In the meantime, carriers that are already weak are getting weaker because airlines like UAL have been given a free ticket by the federal government to slash wages and contracts at will. Oh, and they are still having trouble making money.
 
Clyde said:
Yes, many if not all airlines received some kind of assistance after 9/11. However, only a select few, UAL included, are being kept on life support with our tax dollars. In the meantime, carriers that are already weak are getting weaker because airlines like UAL have been given a free ticket by the federal government to slash wages and contracts at will. Oh, and they are still having trouble making money.

Can you elaborate with specific examples to support your argument Clyde? What continuous flow of taxpayer money has been going into UAL since the initial industrywide 5 billion dollar infusion more than two years ago? Is DIP financing taxpayer money in your world?
 
Mugs, isn't it a lot closer to a 10 billion dollar industry wide transfusion? Correct me if I'm wrong, but carriers split a total of 10 billion, and the ATSB has approved less than 2 out of a possible 10 billion in guarantees. Anybody else know, was it 10 or 5 billion for the free money cash giveaway?
 
Mugs said:
Can you elaborate with specific examples to support your argument Clyde? What continuous flow of taxpayer money has been going into UAL since the initial industrywide 5 billion dollar infusion more than two years ago? Is DIP financing taxpayer money in your world?

Well, let's see. UAL still has a management team, but the court system still has the final say as to what they do. Last time I checked, the court system was funded by the taxpayers, and the court system still has to O.K. everything UAL does. The judges salary, last time I checked, was funded by tax dollars and not from UAL's payroll.
 
koko nw said:
"I have a question: if United expands overseas, will they continue to shrink their domestic flying and/or farm it out to the regionals?"

Ans: Yes, I believe the percentage was 14% decrease in domestic capacity too our regional feeders with an increase in internaional, were pricing is more elastic.


"If that's the case, and my tax money helps to float UAL, shouldn't we the taxpayers enjoy free travel on them"

I'm sorry did we get the ATSB loan? Bye the Bye did you get a free car from Chrysler or Amtran train passes?

Please we certainly have our problems, alot of them :)
But this we taxpayer subsidizing us shtick is gotten out of hand.

Enjoy the ride, you never know when the musics gonna stop for you.

"Bye the Bye did you get a free car from Chrysler or Amtran train
passes?"

Chrysler did manage to get themselves dug out of their hole, repay what was owed to them, and became a successful, well-run corporation again. Regarding Amtrak, they are it as far as PAX rail service and have been helped along by the government for years.

Don't get me wrong, I hope UAL makes it. But, how long can they or anyone else for that matter wallow around in bankruptcy before something has to happen? 2 years, 5 years, 10 years??
 
On September 22, 2001, President Bush signed into law the Air Transportation Safety and System Stabilization Act ("Act") (Public Law 107-42). The Act establishes the Air Transportation Stabilization Board ("Board"). The Board may issue up to $10 billion in Federal credit instruments, e.g. (loan guarantees).



2004
  • On June 17, 2004, the ATSB denied the application of United Air Lines, Inc. for a Federal loan guarantee.
2003
  • On December 30, 2003, World Airways closed on a $30 million loan supported by a $27 million Federal loan guarantee.
  • On December 23, 2003, Frontier Airlines fully repaid the remaining balance on a $70 million loan supported by a $63 million Federal loan guarantee.
  • On June 2, 2003, the ATSB denied the application of Gemini Air Cargo for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On April 23, 2003, the ATSB conditionally approved the application of World Airways, Inc. for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On March 31, 2003, US Airways closed on a $1 billion loan supported by a $900 million Federal loan guarantee.
  • February 14, 2003, Frontier Airlines closed on a $70 million loan supported by a $63 million Federal loan guarantee.
  • On February 11, 2003, the ATSB reaffirmed its conditional approval of US Airways' loan guarantee application.
2002
  • On December 23, 2002, Aloha Airlines closed on a $45 million loan supported by a $40.5 million Federal loan guarantee.
  • On December 20, 2002, the ATSB denied the application of Great Plains Airlines for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On December 20, 2002, the ATSB conditionally approved the application of Evergreen International Airlines, Inc. for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On December 4, 2002, the ATSB announced that it cannot approve the proposal submitted by United Air Lines, Inc. for a $1.8 billion federal guarantee of a $2.0 billion loan.
  • On November 26, 2002, the ATSB denied the applications of MEDjet International Airlines, Inc. and Corporate Airlines, Inc. for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On November 20, 2002, American Trans Air closed on a $168 million loan supported by a $148.5 million Federal loan guarantee.
  • On November 5, 2002, the ATSB conditionally approved the applications of Aloha Airlines, Inc. and Frontier Airlines, Inc. for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On September 26, 2002, the ATSB conditionally approved the application of American Trans Air, Inc. for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On August 14, 2002 the ATSB denied the application of National Airlines, Inc. for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On August 14, 2002 the ATSB denied the application of Spirit Airlines, Inc. for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On July 29, 2002, the ATSB denied the application of Vanguard Airlines for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On July 10, 2002, the ATSB conditionally approved the application of US Airways, Inc. for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On June 28, 2002, Aloha Airlines, Inc. submitted an application for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On June 28, 2002, Frontier Airlines, Inc. submitted an application for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On June 28, 2002, Ozark Airlines, Inc. d.b.a. Great Plains Airlines submitted an application for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On June 28, 2002, World Airways, Inc. submitted an application for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On June 28, 2002, MEDjet International, Inc. submitted an application for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On June 28, 2002, Corporate Airlines, Inc. submitted an application for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On June 28, 2002, Gemini Air Cargo, Inc. submitted an application for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On June 26, 2002, Vanguard Airlines, Inc. submitted a revised application for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On June 24, 2002, United Air Lines, Inc. submitted an application for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On June 13, 2002, American Trans Air, Inc. submitted an application for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On June 7, 2002, US Airways, Inc. submitted an application for a Federal loan guarantee.
  • On May 31, 2002, the ATSB denied Frontier Flying Service, Inc.'s application for Federal loan guarantees.
  • On May 28, 2002, the ATSB denied Vanguard Airlines' application for Federal loan guarantees.
  • On May 3, 2002, National Airlines submitted an application for Federal loan guarantees.
  • On March 28, 2002, Spirit Airlines, Inc.submitted an application for Federal loan guarantees.
  • On February 25, 2002, Evergreen International Airlines, Inc. submitted an application for Federal loan guarantees.
  • On January 29, 2002, Frontier Flying Service, Inc. submitted an application for Federal loan guarantees.
  • On January 18, 2002, America West Airlines closed on a $429 million loan supported by a Federal loan guarantee.
2001
  • On December 28, 2001, the ATSB gave a conditional approval to America West Airlines for its application.
  • On December 19, 2001, Vanguard Airlines submitted an amended application for Federal loan guarantees.
  • On December 7, 2001 America West Airlines submitted an amended application for Federal loan guarantees.
  • On December 6, 2001, Vanguard Airlines submitted an application for Federal loan guarantees.
  • On November 13, 2001 America West Airlines submitted an application for Federal loan guarantees.
 
Clyde said:
Well, let's see. UAL still has a management team, but the court system still has the final say as to what they do. Last time I checked, the court system was funded by the taxpayers, and the court system still has to O.K. everything UAL does. The judges salary, last time I checked, was funded by tax dollars and not from UAL's payroll.

Good thing UAL filed for CH11 then. I would hate to see the judge go without a paycheck since he would have no other function in life. I suppose the courts you are talking about were erected and funded strictly as a result of this case. By the way, how much does the government bring in from UAL in the form of the various taxes it collects from it? How much tax money would it cost to put the remaining 62,000 UAL employees (along with non-UAL employees) out on the street drawing unemployment? Do you have some better specifics other than what you just came up with?
 
Mugs said:
Good thing UAL filed for CH11 then. I would hate to see the judge go without a paycheck since he would have no other function in life. I suppose the courts you are talking about were erected and funded strictly as a result of this case. By the way, how much does the government bring in from UAL in the form of the various taxes it collects from it? How much tax money would it cost to put the remaining 62,000 UAL employees (along with non-UAL employees) out on the street drawing unemployment? Do you have some better specifics other than what you just came up with?

Yeah, I do. How about the harm it's doing to the other carriers in the industry. UAL's costs are coming down partly because the judge ok'd the airline to tear up labor agreements and slash salaries. Guess what? Airlines like NWA, CAL, DAL, and AMR are now forced to find ways to slash costs, usually in the way of salaries becuase of that.

How about the fact that one reason salaries are decreasing and concessions are increasing among the industry is because they HAVE to do that in order to compete with UAL. Oh, and UAL still hasn't proven it can even survive on it's own yet. In the meantime, stronger carriers who can are being dragged under because of all of this.

Sorry, but this is survival of the fittest. One of two things will happen hear in the near future:

1: the weaker carriers are going to fold and the remaining are going to survive and strengthen. Thus, the industry may begin to strengthen as a whole.

2: Bankrupt carriers are going to continue to operate as they will and the entire industry is going to be hurt even worse in the long run. I guarantee that this will affect more than just 62,000 people.

By the way, how much does the government bring in from UAL in the form of the various taxes it collects from it?

Lately, probably not a whole lot. The question that needs to be asked is how much is the mis-management that took place at UAL going to cost the government. i.e., unemployment, loss of productivity, loss of revenue in cities it once served. My guess is the government wouldn't break even.
 
Come on guys and girls everyone knows United is the greatest airline that ever was and ever will be!! This bankruptcy thing happens to the best of em and I'm sure this new Asia thing will pan out and United will soon again be America's number 1 airline. Can you imagine the salaries of a United Airlines A-380 captain flying the pacific! They put an entire second deck on that bird to fit her wallet! Does anyone know if Ms. Stuke has fired up pilot recruitment in anticipation of the turn around? Can anyone spare 50 bucks so I can get my update in. Think positive everyone and soon we will have our industry back as it should be!!
 
Clyde said:
Yeah, I do. How about the harm it's doing to the other carriers in the industry. UAL's costs are coming down partly because the judge ok'd the airline to tear up labor agreements and slash salaries. Guess what? Airlines like NWA, CAL, DAL, and AMR are now forced to find ways to slash costs, usually in the way of salaries becuase of that.

How about the fact that one reason salaries are decreasing and concessions are increasing among the industry is because they HAVE to do that in order to compete with UAL. Oh, and UAL still hasn't proven it can even survive on it's own yet. In the meantime, stronger carriers who can are being dragged under because of all of this.

Sorry, but this is survival of the fittest. One of two things will happen hear in the near future:

1: the weaker carriers are going to fold and the remaining are going to survive and strengthen. Thus, the industry may begin to strengthen as a whole.

2: Bankrupt carriers are going to continue to operate as they will and the entire industry is going to be hurt even worse in the long run. I guarantee that this will affect more than just 62,000 people.

By the way, how much does the government bring in from UAL in the form of the various taxes it collects from it?

Lately, probably not a whole lot. The question that needs to be asked is how much is the mis-management that took place at UAL going to cost the government. i.e., unemployment, loss of productivity, loss of revenue in cities it once served. My guess is the government wouldn't break even.


The issue we were debating here Clyde is your assertion that UAL is being kept "on life support with taxpayer dollars." I think we cleared up that the direct taxpayer cash infusion in the months after Sept. 11th was industrywide, not limited to a select few carriers. Beyond that, what cash infusion of taxpayer money is now keeping UAL aloft? I asked you to point that out with a specific example. I haven't read one yet.

What you went on about in your last post has to do with the competitive situation in the industry and it effects on the participants. If you want to blame UAL for the industry's ills and just wish it would go away, fine. However, will a UAL liquidation really solve anything in the long run? How many carriers, large and small, have disappeared over just the last 20 years? In spite of that, the industry still reached the point where it is today. You may see a temporary boom from a large reduction in capacity. With time, however, that capacity will come back in the form of new entrants. There will be such a large number of parked aircraft (or creatively financed new aircraft from Airbus) to choose from, that this could happen fairly quickly. Judging by the Jetblue example, a new entrant doesn't have to be that big to start bringing significant attention to ticket prices in their area of operation. The bottom line is that if you think that getting rid of the weaker carriers today is going to make everything fine for long run, then you are kidding yourself. Low fares and constant revenue pressure are here to stay. The fat is gone. Unless there are aluminum / composite materials eating termites out in the desert, the capacity will come back. Cheaply.
 
Here is a bit more for you Clyde:


Waiting For The First Airline To Die
Delta's price war is bound to sink an airline or three. Who will fall soonest?

[font=arial,helvetica,univers]It looks as if the major airlines have nowhere left to hide. After four years of industry losses in the face of an economic slowdown, punishingly low fares, and high fuel prices, a shakeout now appears all but inevitable. The final blow may have come in early January with Delta Air Lines Inc.'s (DAL ) pricing revolution. The simplified structure is expected to batter already bleak revenues for everyone. Says Gary C. Kelly, chief executive of low-fare king Southwest Airlines Co. (LUV ): "Something's got to give."[/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,univers]
If it wasn't already clear enough, Delta's bold move underlines the new reality: The days of high-cost, high-fare airlines are over. By lowering and capping top fares, Delta is simply bowing to the inevitable and forcing its managers and employees to face the facts. After identifying $5 billion in cost cuts, it will now have to work harder still to create an airline that can be profitable charging such fares. Delta's move also puts huge pressure on the other major carriers to speed their own restructurings. As they scramble to match Delta fare reductions, the industry as a whole could sacrifice $2 billion in revenues. "The majors are realizing that if they don't accelerate their transformation, they will die," says James E. Owers, a finance professor and airline expert at Georgia State University.

Nowhere is that clearer than at US Airways. Despite major cost-cutting strides in its second round of bankruptcy, workers angered by repeated concessions and wary creditors and investors could soon force the airline's demise. Foundering upstart Independence Air Inc. and low-cost ATA Airlines Inc., which is struggling to emerge from Chapter 11 after cutting a deal to sell some of its Chicago gates to Southwest, could also vanish. All told, those three carriers account for nearly 10% of domestic capacity.

Bankrupt United Airlines (UAL ), still wrangling for benefit concessions from its workers, isn't out of danger either. If it succeeds in terminating its pension plans, "people would be so demoralized that the carrier couldn't survive," says Robert Roach Jr., general vice-president of the International Association of Machinists, which represents United's airport workers.

That may be a bit of hyperbole. But even if these airlines manage to hang on, a shakeout is still imminent, driven in part by Delta's squeeze on revenues. Says J. Scott Kirby, executive vice-president of marketing at low-cost carrier America West Airlines Inc. (AWA ): "I don't know if we get there through consolidation, liquidation, or a lot of airlines reducing capacity." But ultimately, he believes, "capacity rationalization" has to come. With its own losses mounting, America West has cut its growth plan nearly in half, to 3% to 5% this year.

However it occurs, an industry restructuring is well overdue. Despite wringing out enormous costs, carriers are expected to lose at least $2 billion this year on top of last year's $5.4 billion. Part of the mess can be chalked up to aggressive growth: After three years of shrinking, capacity rose 7% in 2004, says Vaughn Cordle, CEO and chief analyst of AirlineForecasts LLC in Washington, D.C. Before Delta's bombshell, he forecast a 4.5% expansion this year. While much of the growth has come from discounters, the big players have expanded, too, rather than simply cede share to low-cost rivals. "What's perfectly logical and rational at the individual airline level is completely irrational at the industry level," says Cordle.

That's why the failure of one or even two of the majors won't be enough to save the ailing airlines. Any reduction in capacity is likely to be quickly filled by low-cost and legacy carriers alike. Southwest, for instance, would rapidly expand in Philadelphia should US Airways disappear. And that will keep the pressure on fares. "The notion of a competitor disappearing and solving your problems is naive," says former American Airlines (AMR ) CEO Donald J. Carty. No wonder the race is on to be a low-cost survivor.


Still think major changes in your world doesn't have to happen Clyde?

[/font]
 
Last edited:
By the way, how much does the government bring in from UAL in the form of the various taxes it collects from it?

Irrelevant, people are still going to continue to fly. So, Uncle Sam will still continue to make his tax revenue.

That's like saying if UAL / USAir/ Whomever goes under, its customers will never fly again.

As I have always said, the traveling public doesn't give a rats butt about whose name is on the side or what color the paint job is or if you have TV or if you have food or if your service stinks or if you have assigned seats. All they care about is the MONEY! What's the price? How much does it cost?
 

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