united Pilot and Furloughees-- we're screwed:

[Sonny Crockett]

there was a group of pilots who were informing the pilot group a little too well on the finances of united- take in combination that nice ual alpa note about sick calls higher than normal and voila:





UALMEC Forum Update, July 22, 2009

The UALMEC Forum is closed due to a server virus. Please watch the ALPA FastReads for future updates. Thank you.
riiiiiiight a virus---- is it the glen tilton virus

FISHY!!!!!!

ALPA is really pi$$ing me off! Take away our Forum just because we are asking questions that the MEC Chief doesn't want to answer.

ALPA you NEVER cease to amaze me!

Virus.....RIGGGGGGHT

 

[JakeSnake]

I think that this might be good old-fashioned incompetence rather than piracy. Even pirates need to come up with plans and execute them in order to succeed.

No..they are scary sharp. They have been engaged in a systematic and organized beat-down of pilots, FA's, mech's, and every other employee group since at least 2003. They have outmaneuvered ALPA at EVERY turn, and have been able to see a farther horizon than any of the employee groups. From the pension giveaway, no furlough clause giveaway, rj giveaway, E190 giveaway, scope giveaway, block hour giveaway, TRO, etc. etc. etc. Even the "free" TA the pilots got last year, we have come to find out came at a price.

They are not incompetent...you must understand what motivates them (they are NOT motivated by growing this airline from w/in). Once you understand what they are motivated by, it becomes clear that they are executing, with precison, their long-term plan.

Their actions don't sit well with "us"--that is why it can appear that they are incompetent.

Don't be fooled.

 

[glasspilot]

It probably had nothing to do with the recession we are in and businesses pulling back......think.

If you think the loss of the "premium passenger" is a result of the current recession then you are on crack.

Nobody likes to fly commercial. Not the folks in coach and not the rich in first. Now the problem is that those that can afford to leave the airlines do. NetJets started offering fractional flying in 1986. Yeah, that was ya'lls heyday, but it was in 1998 that Warren Buffet (a 3 year customer) decided to financially back NetJets, buy them and that's when things really took off.

Since then an entire fractional industry has cropped up. There are 6 major companies offering everything from a BBJ (Boeing Business Jet (737)) to a piaggio (prop). Added to that each program offers full fractional ownership and newer programs where owners buy time cards so they don't even have to own or pay for the plane. They simply buy a 25 hour card and call when they want to fly. They call and a few hours later a plane drifts out of the sky to their local airport and takes them where ever they want to go. So now your "premium passenger" has so many options that they will NEVER EVER go back 121.

That Piaggio I mentioned costs less than first class on your planes if you break it out by number of seats vs. flight cost and goes nearly as fast (400kts) and up to FL410. The point is the premium passenger has options and it doesnt' cost half as much as you think. They are not comming back. The airlines screwed it up and should just move on. Service the masses and do what you must to keep them happy before some air taxi service moves in and takes them too.

Whatever you do, don't blame the loss of "premium passengers" on a recession that's been around for a year and a half or so. You started losing those passengers well over a decade ago.

 

[Flopgut]

Whatever you do, don't blame the loss of "premium passengers" on a recession that's been around for a year and a half or so. You started losing those passengers well over a decade ago.

Fractionals have a good product, but most of the growth is a result of the exponential growth of the number of ultra wealthy. That won't continue, in fact that number might be decreasing. Additionally, I don't think the tax paradygm is correct for these ops. The FET wasn't collected for most of the time Netjets was called EJA. I'd like to see how much fractionals grow if they were taxed at 40%+ like airline tickets.

Premium passengers might not come back to the airlines in the same numbers they left, but some will. But I wouldn't bet fractionals grow like they did in the last 10 years.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

An observation:

United int'l service blows. But that is what the US gov buys primarily for overseas orders. They will throw out Qatar Air every now and then, and that is what int'l service is supposed to be.

Maybe the recession is what's driving their loads, but that abysmmal entertainment suite on the 777 and the ahem, SWA service on a long haul flight, is probably not helping things.

 

[contrail67]

No..they are scary sharp. They have been engaged in a systematic and organized beat-down of pilots, FA's, mech's, and every other employee group since at least 2003. They have outmaneuvered ALPA at EVERY turn, and have been able to see a farther horizon than any of the employee groups. From the pension giveaway, no furlough clause giveaway, rj giveaway, E190 giveaway, scope giveaway, block hour giveaway, TRO, etc. etc. etc. Even the "free" TA the pilots got last year, we have come to find out came at a price.

They are not incompetent...you must understand what motivates them (they are NOT motivated by growing this airline from w/in). Once you understand what they are motivated by, it becomes clear that they are executing, with precison, their long-term plan.

Their actions don't sit well with "us"--that is why it can appear that they are incompetent.

Don't be fooled.

E190 Giveaway? What are you talking about? Who is flying a E190 in United's paint. They are not even on the property.

 

[contrail67]

If you think the loss of the "premium passenger" is a result of the current recession then you are on crack.

Nobody likes to fly commercial. Not the folks in coach and not the rich in first. Now the problem is that those that can afford to leave the airlines do. NetJets started offering fractional flying in 1986. Yeah, that was ya'lls heyday, but it was in 1998 that Warren Buffet (a 3 year customer) decided to financially back NetJets, buy them and that's when things really took off.

Since then an entire fractional industry has cropped up. There are 6 major companies offering everything from a BBJ (Boeing Business Jet (737)) to a piaggio (prop). Added to that each program offers full fractional ownership and newer programs where owners buy time cards so they don't even have to own or pay for the plane. They simply buy a 25 hour card and call when they want to fly. They call and a few hours later a plane drifts out of the sky to their local airport and takes them where ever they want to go. So now your "premium passenger" has so many options that they will NEVER EVER go back 121.

That Piaggio I mentioned costs less than first class on your planes if you break it out by number of seats vs. flight cost and goes nearly as fast (400kts) and up to FL410. The point is the premium passenger has options and it doesnt' cost half as much as you think. They are not comming back. The airlines screwed it up and should just move on. Service the masses and do what you must to keep them happy before some air taxi service moves in and takes them too.

Whatever you do, don't blame the loss of "premium passengers" on a recession that's been around for a year and a half or so. You started losing those passengers well over a decade ago.

The recession has alot to do with it. To think it does not have an effect means YOU are on crack. All the legacy airlines are cutting back and having a decrease in the "premium passenger"...not just United.

 

[JakeSnake]

Contrail67.......E170, TYPO... I would edit it if I knew how.

 

[glasspilot]

...All the legacy airlines are cutting back and having a decrease in the "premium passenger"...not just United.

Did you really think I was saying the entire fractional industry was based solely on taking "premium passengers" from United?

wow...somebody has a complex.

A lot of you guys really don't get it. Do you ever look at the passengers standing in line at the TSA while you wisk by in the crew lane? Do you ever imagine what it's like to stand in that 3 hour line? Now imagine standing in that line as the CEO or CFO or some other mucky muck of some big corporation.

Imagine being a partner at a law firm who bills his time at over $800 per hour. How does he feel about standing in that line...knowing that the time in that line is added to the 1.5 hour drive to the airport, the 1 hour connection, and the 2 hour drive to where he actually wants to go.

How's he like the nasty terminal, the cramped RJ, the zero food on said RJ, the cattle call service from every employee from the Pilots to the FA to the CSR to the TSA. The endless PA announcements ensuring he's updated, no fewer than 3 times per flight, of the "calm winds and broken clouds", the 10 minute sales pitch to please sign up for the airline credit card (and if you do we'll let you enjoy this experience all over again!), the lost bags, the disgusting lavs, the first class cabin full of non-rev'ing employees, the endless seatbelt sign in filght, the blah blah blah.

Look, ALL of the airlines suck. They suck real bad. It's not anyones fault on these boards reading this, but they do suck. Don't think for one New York second that the "premium passengers" are ever ever coming back until the entire system is overhauled.

And hey, self centered guy...that's goes for ALL carriers. Not just the center of the Universe that is United.

 

[contrail67]

Did you really think I was saying the entire fractional industry was based solely on taking "premium passengers" from United?

wow...somebody has a complex.

A lot of you guys really don't get it. Do you ever look at the passengers standing in line at the TSA while you wisk by in the crew lane? Do you ever imagine what it's like to stand in that 3 hour line? Now imagine standing in that line as the CEO or CFO or some other mucky muck of some big corporation.

Imagine being a partner at a law firm who bills his time at over $800 per hour. How does he feel about standing in that line...knowing that the time in that line is added to the 1.5 hour drive to the airport, the 1 hour connection, and the 2 hour drive to where he actually wants to go.

How's he like the nasty terminal, the cramped RJ, the zero food on said RJ, the cattle call service from every employee from the Pilots to the FA to the CSR to the TSA. The endless PA announcements ensuring he's updated, no fewer than 3 times per flight, of the "calm winds and broken clouds", the 10 minute sales pitch to please sign up for the airline credit card (and if you do we'll let you enjoy this experience all over again!), the lost bags, the disgusting lavs, the first class cabin full of non-rev'ing employees, the endless seatbelt sign in filght, the blah blah blah.

Look, ALL of the airlines suck. They suck real bad. It's not anyones fault on these boards reading this, but they do suck. Don't think for one New York second that the "premium passengers" are ever ever coming back until the entire system is overhauled.

And hey, self centered guy...that's goes for ALL carriers. Not just the center of the Universe that is United.

Well, lets look at that for a minute....the last time I looked ( 5 min. ago) all of the fractionals...except NetJets have pilots furloughed too...and NetJets is not hiring. So...if the "premium passenger" is seeking other options....THEN WHY ARE ALL THE FRACTIONALS FURLOUGHING TOO?...and yes, NetJets is not hiring....seems like they would be expanding, taking all the "pissed off premium passengers." You see...it does not look like they are seeking out the little jets that you fly either.

 

[Mr.B]

Did you really think I was saying the entire fractional industry was based solely on taking "premium passengers" from United?

wow...somebody has a complex.

A lot of you guys really don't get it. Do you ever look at the passengers standing in line at the TSA while you wisk by in the crew lane? Do you ever imagine what it's like to stand in that 3 hour line? Now imagine standing in that line as the CEO or CFO or some other mucky muck of some big corporation.

Imagine being a partner at a law firm who bills his time at over $800 per hour. How does he feel about standing in that line...knowing that the time in that line is added to the 1.5 hour drive to the airport, the 1 hour connection, and the 2 hour drive to where he actually wants to go.

How's he like the nasty terminal, the cramped RJ, the zero food on said RJ, the cattle call service from every employee from the Pilots to the FA to the CSR to the TSA. The endless PA announcements ensuring he's updated, no fewer than 3 times per flight, of the "calm winds and broken clouds", the 10 minute sales pitch to please sign up for the airline credit card (and if you do we'll let you enjoy this experience all over again!), the lost bags, the disgusting lavs, the first class cabin full of non-rev'ing employees, the endless seatbelt sign in filght, the blah blah blah.

Look, ALL of the airlines suck. They suck real bad. It's not anyones fault on these boards reading this, but they do suck. Don't think for one New York second that the "premium passengers" are ever ever coming back until the entire system is overhauled.

And hey, self centered guy...that's goes for ALL carriers. Not just the center of the Universe that is United.

1. I've flown several airlines as a paying passenger. Never, have I had to stand in a TSA line for 3 hours. Not even close.

2. An $800 an hour lawyer? And you accuse a United pilot of being self-centered?

3. I'm sorry if you feel small and slighted when a crewmember whisks by you in line or is in first while you hang out in back. Maybe you'll get hired someday and enjoy those bennies.

4. Until then, I applaud you for defending your slice of the aviation pie. But realize you just know whose buttering your bread.

 

[Flopgut]

I wonder how well the fractionals would run if we stopped selling them tickets. Total embargo on all fractional employees? I bet we'd get more than a few customers back.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I wonder how well the fractionals would run if we stopped selling them tickets. Total embargo on all fractional employees? I bet we'd get more than a few customers back.

We're some of the most loyal customers you have. Go ahead Flop, cut your own throats more than they are already.

Flying SWA tomorrow. Flew DAL at the beginning of my trip. Full Y fare.

You sure you don't need us?

 

[FLYLOW22]

Well, lets look at that for a minute....the last time I looked ( 5 min. ago) all of the fractionals...except NetJets have pilots furloughed too...and NetJets is not hiring. So...if the "premium passenger" is seeking other options....THEN WHY ARE ALL THE FRACTIONALS FURLOUGHING TOO?...and yes, NetJets is not hiring....seems like they would be expanding, taking all the "pissed off premium passengers." You see...it does not look like they are seeking out the little jets that you fly either.

You have accurately described the phenomenon known as... A Recession. This one has affected most of the spectrum of wealth.

I, for one, am happy that we did not furlough. Our CEO thinks of furloughs akin to failure. I'm glad that we have the financial stability of Warren Buffett to back up that belief.

When the economy begins a solid uptick, you can believe that more of our Owners will begin to fly more often. New Owners will seek us out. We are selling airplane shares right now... so don't think the market is dead.

With over 1000 planes on order, the spigot needs only to be turned on again.

Best of luck to you all. We at the Frax are not your enemy. We are customers that help keep your lights on. You are welcome.

 

[Flopgut]

We're some of the most loyal customers you have. Go ahead Flop, cut your own throats more than they are already.

Flying SWA tomorrow. Flew DAL at the beginning of my trip. Full Y fare.

You sure you don't need us?

What are we going to do, lose money? Seems to me we're enabling half the operation over there, at least the whole home basing thing for certain. When the number of uber rich stops increasing and the hangover sets in on the ones who already are, and if 10 grand an hour goes to 15 because you're finally taxed appropriately, we'll see where things shake out.

We're common carriers. We hold out to the public, but I'm not sure if we pushed for a legal interpretation airlines would be required to provide service to a customer that feeds on our vulnerabilities. Additionally, it's not like we can get much customer loyalty out of you. Sounds like you rode DAL to work because that's who you had to and then cashed in your ticket home and are riding SWA for a discount. Why don't you ride DAL home? Where's the aforementioned loyalty?