united Pilot and Furloughees-- we're screwed:

[contrail67]

No..they are scary sharp. They have been engaged in a systematic and organized beat-down of pilots, FA's, mech's, and every other employee group since at least 2003. They have outmaneuvered ALPA at EVERY turn, and have been able to see a farther horizon than any of the employee groups. From the pension giveaway, no furlough clause giveaway, rj giveaway, E190 giveaway, scope giveaway, block hour giveaway, TRO, etc. etc. etc. Even the "free" TA the pilots got last year, we have come to find out came at a price.

They are not incompetent...you must understand what motivates them (they are NOT motivated by growing this airline from w/in). Once you understand what they are motivated by, it becomes clear that they are executing, with precison, their long-term plan.

Their actions don't sit well with "us"--that is why it can appear that they are incompetent.

Don't be fooled.

E190 Giveaway? What are you talking about? Who is flying a E190 in United's paint. They are not even on the property.

 

[contrail67]

If you think the loss of the "premium passenger" is a result of the current recession then you are on crack.

Nobody likes to fly commercial. Not the folks in coach and not the rich in first. Now the problem is that those that can afford to leave the airlines do. NetJets started offering fractional flying in 1986. Yeah, that was ya'lls heyday, but it was in 1998 that Warren Buffet (a 3 year customer) decided to financially back NetJets, buy them and that's when things really took off.

Since then an entire fractional industry has cropped up. There are 6 major companies offering everything from a BBJ (Boeing Business Jet (737)) to a piaggio (prop). Added to that each program offers full fractional ownership and newer programs where owners buy time cards so they don't even have to own or pay for the plane. They simply buy a 25 hour card and call when they want to fly. They call and a few hours later a plane drifts out of the sky to their local airport and takes them where ever they want to go. So now your "premium passenger" has so many options that they will NEVER EVER go back 121.

That Piaggio I mentioned costs less than first class on your planes if you break it out by number of seats vs. flight cost and goes nearly as fast (400kts) and up to FL410. The point is the premium passenger has options and it doesnt' cost half as much as you think. They are not comming back. The airlines screwed it up and should just move on. Service the masses and do what you must to keep them happy before some air taxi service moves in and takes them too.

Whatever you do, don't blame the loss of "premium passengers" on a recession that's been around for a year and a half or so. You started losing those passengers well over a decade ago.

The recession has alot to do with it. To think it does not have an effect means YOU are on crack. All the legacy airlines are cutting back and having a decrease in the "premium passenger"...not just United.

 

[JakeSnake]

Contrail67.......E170, TYPO... I would edit it if I knew how.

 

[glasspilot]

...All the legacy airlines are cutting back and having a decrease in the "premium passenger"...not just United.

Did you really think I was saying the entire fractional industry was based solely on taking "premium passengers" from United?

wow...somebody has a complex.

A lot of you guys really don't get it. Do you ever look at the passengers standing in line at the TSA while you wisk by in the crew lane? Do you ever imagine what it's like to stand in that 3 hour line? Now imagine standing in that line as the CEO or CFO or some other mucky muck of some big corporation.

Imagine being a partner at a law firm who bills his time at over $800 per hour. How does he feel about standing in that line...knowing that the time in that line is added to the 1.5 hour drive to the airport, the 1 hour connection, and the 2 hour drive to where he actually wants to go.

How's he like the nasty terminal, the cramped RJ, the zero food on said RJ, the cattle call service from every employee from the Pilots to the FA to the CSR to the TSA. The endless PA announcements ensuring he's updated, no fewer than 3 times per flight, of the "calm winds and broken clouds", the 10 minute sales pitch to please sign up for the airline credit card (and if you do we'll let you enjoy this experience all over again!), the lost bags, the disgusting lavs, the first class cabin full of non-rev'ing employees, the endless seatbelt sign in filght, the blah blah blah.

Look, ALL of the airlines suck. They suck real bad. It's not anyones fault on these boards reading this, but they do suck. Don't think for one New York second that the "premium passengers" are ever ever coming back until the entire system is overhauled.

And hey, self centered guy...that's goes for ALL carriers. Not just the center of the Universe that is United.

 

[contrail67]

Did you really think I was saying the entire fractional industry was based solely on taking "premium passengers" from United?

wow...somebody has a complex.

A lot of you guys really don't get it. Do you ever look at the passengers standing in line at the TSA while you wisk by in the crew lane? Do you ever imagine what it's like to stand in that 3 hour line? Now imagine standing in that line as the CEO or CFO or some other mucky muck of some big corporation.

Imagine being a partner at a law firm who bills his time at over $800 per hour. How does he feel about standing in that line...knowing that the time in that line is added to the 1.5 hour drive to the airport, the 1 hour connection, and the 2 hour drive to where he actually wants to go.

How's he like the nasty terminal, the cramped RJ, the zero food on said RJ, the cattle call service from every employee from the Pilots to the FA to the CSR to the TSA. The endless PA announcements ensuring he's updated, no fewer than 3 times per flight, of the "calm winds and broken clouds", the 10 minute sales pitch to please sign up for the airline credit card (and if you do we'll let you enjoy this experience all over again!), the lost bags, the disgusting lavs, the first class cabin full of non-rev'ing employees, the endless seatbelt sign in filght, the blah blah blah.

Look, ALL of the airlines suck. They suck real bad. It's not anyones fault on these boards reading this, but they do suck. Don't think for one New York second that the "premium passengers" are ever ever coming back until the entire system is overhauled.

And hey, self centered guy...that's goes for ALL carriers. Not just the center of the Universe that is United.

Well, lets look at that for a minute....the last time I looked ( 5 min. ago) all of the fractionals...except NetJets have pilots furloughed too...and NetJets is not hiring. So...if the "premium passenger" is seeking other options....THEN WHY ARE ALL THE FRACTIONALS FURLOUGHING TOO?...and yes, NetJets is not hiring....seems like they would be expanding, taking all the "pissed off premium passengers." You see...it does not look like they are seeking out the little jets that you fly either.

 

[Mr.B]

Did you really think I was saying the entire fractional industry was based solely on taking "premium passengers" from United?

wow...somebody has a complex.

A lot of you guys really don't get it. Do you ever look at the passengers standing in line at the TSA while you wisk by in the crew lane? Do you ever imagine what it's like to stand in that 3 hour line? Now imagine standing in that line as the CEO or CFO or some other mucky muck of some big corporation.

Imagine being a partner at a law firm who bills his time at over $800 per hour. How does he feel about standing in that line...knowing that the time in that line is added to the 1.5 hour drive to the airport, the 1 hour connection, and the 2 hour drive to where he actually wants to go.

How's he like the nasty terminal, the cramped RJ, the zero food on said RJ, the cattle call service from every employee from the Pilots to the FA to the CSR to the TSA. The endless PA announcements ensuring he's updated, no fewer than 3 times per flight, of the "calm winds and broken clouds", the 10 minute sales pitch to please sign up for the airline credit card (and if you do we'll let you enjoy this experience all over again!), the lost bags, the disgusting lavs, the first class cabin full of non-rev'ing employees, the endless seatbelt sign in filght, the blah blah blah.

Look, ALL of the airlines suck. They suck real bad. It's not anyones fault on these boards reading this, but they do suck. Don't think for one New York second that the "premium passengers" are ever ever coming back until the entire system is overhauled.

And hey, self centered guy...that's goes for ALL carriers. Not just the center of the Universe that is United.

1. I've flown several airlines as a paying passenger. Never, have I had to stand in a TSA line for 3 hours. Not even close.

2. An $800 an hour lawyer? And you accuse a United pilot of being self-centered?

3. I'm sorry if you feel small and slighted when a crewmember whisks by you in line or is in first while you hang out in back. Maybe you'll get hired someday and enjoy those bennies.

4. Until then, I applaud you for defending your slice of the aviation pie. But realize you just know whose buttering your bread.

 

[Flopgut]

I wonder how well the fractionals would run if we stopped selling them tickets. Total embargo on all fractional employees? I bet we'd get more than a few customers back.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I wonder how well the fractionals would run if we stopped selling them tickets. Total embargo on all fractional employees? I bet we'd get more than a few customers back.

We're some of the most loyal customers you have. Go ahead Flop, cut your own throats more than they are already.

Flying SWA tomorrow. Flew DAL at the beginning of my trip. Full Y fare.

You sure you don't need us?

 

[FLYLOW22]

Well, lets look at that for a minute....the last time I looked ( 5 min. ago) all of the fractionals...except NetJets have pilots furloughed too...and NetJets is not hiring. So...if the "premium passenger" is seeking other options....THEN WHY ARE ALL THE FRACTIONALS FURLOUGHING TOO?...and yes, NetJets is not hiring....seems like they would be expanding, taking all the "pissed off premium passengers." You see...it does not look like they are seeking out the little jets that you fly either.

You have accurately described the phenomenon known as... A Recession. This one has affected most of the spectrum of wealth.

I, for one, am happy that we did not furlough. Our CEO thinks of furloughs akin to failure. I'm glad that we have the financial stability of Warren Buffett to back up that belief.

When the economy begins a solid uptick, you can believe that more of our Owners will begin to fly more often. New Owners will seek us out. We are selling airplane shares right now... so don't think the market is dead.

With over 1000 planes on order, the spigot needs only to be turned on again.

Best of luck to you all. We at the Frax are not your enemy. We are customers that help keep your lights on. You are welcome.

 

[Flopgut]

We're some of the most loyal customers you have. Go ahead Flop, cut your own throats more than they are already.

Flying SWA tomorrow. Flew DAL at the beginning of my trip. Full Y fare.

You sure you don't need us?

What are we going to do, lose money? Seems to me we're enabling half the operation over there, at least the whole home basing thing for certain. When the number of uber rich stops increasing and the hangover sets in on the ones who already are, and if 10 grand an hour goes to 15 because you're finally taxed appropriately, we'll see where things shake out.

We're common carriers. We hold out to the public, but I'm not sure if we pushed for a legal interpretation airlines would be required to provide service to a customer that feeds on our vulnerabilities. Additionally, it's not like we can get much customer loyalty out of you. Sounds like you rode DAL to work because that's who you had to and then cashed in your ticket home and are riding SWA for a discount. Why don't you ride DAL home? Where's the aforementioned loyalty?

 

[FLYLOW22]

What are we going to do, lose money? Seems to me we're enabling half the operation over there, at least the whole home basing thing for certain. When the number of uber rich stops increasing and the hangover sets in on the ones who already are, and if 10 grand an hour goes to 15 because you're finally taxed appropriately, we'll see where things shake out.

We're common carriers. We hold out to the public, but I'm not sure if we pushed for a legal interpretation airlines would be required to provide service to a customer that feeds on our vulnerabilities. Additionally, it's not like we can get much customer loyalty out of you. Sounds like you rode DAL to work because that's who you had to and then cashed in your ticket home and are riding SWA for a discount. Why don't you ride DAL home? Where's the aforementioned loyalty?

You ask as if I am involved in the decision making process. The carrier that NJ Travel chooses is most likely determined by city pairs, timing to get us from A-B and price in that order.

Good luck lobbying in Washington for that tax hike on private jets. I'd be interested to see how far ALPA dollars go up against the uber-wealthy of America. Good luck with that. A noble cause... It's a bit outta my pay grade personally so I'll just watch from here.

As far as home basing goes... well... the airlines would need to shut down a heck of a lot of cities before I would personally worry. Are you proposing that your airline should pull out of 100+ market cities to save money?

Interesting plan. Maybe you were born to be in management.

 

[Flopgut]

You ask as if I am involved in the decision making process.

You said you were our most loyal. I was just following up.

 

[glasspilot]

Our home basing is every class B airport in the US save MSP. That's a great idea, just shut down those cities and we'll be screwed!

You got it! Send that idea in. You'll wipe us out and you'll get the credit.

Oh, and speaking for myself. I flew for UEX and had the "bennies". Don't think I taxi by the terminal and think to myself, "One day I can fly there!". I did at one time, but now I know I will never fly 121 again. Sorta like my pax.

 

[Flopgut]

You ask as if I am involved in the decision making process. The carrier that NJ Travel chooses is most likely determined by city pairs, timing to get us from A-B and price in that order.

Good luck lobbying in Washington for that tax hike on private jets.

Who needs to make any effort lobbying? Ford's display of the excess private jets are has helped a lot. That happens a few more times and, who knows?

 

[Flopgut]

As far as home basing goes... well... the airlines would need to shut down a heck of a lot of cities before I would personally worry. Are you proposing that your airline should pull out of 100+ market cities to save money?

Yeah, that's not what I said. I said we should just stop selling airline tickets to NJA pilots for about a year. See what happens. We need to start thinking outside the box; this isn't working too well for us just hauling you around from one complaint to the next. If every airline decided to withold service it might work.

 

[glasspilot]

First: You can't "Hold yourself out to the public...except the one company NetJets"

Second: You wouldn't be withholding service from NetJets. You would have to withhold service from every pilot AT NetJets as the pilots buy the tickets, not the company. The pilots buy 'em and keep the points / miles. The company simply pays the credit card bill at the end of the month.

Nope, you're only chance is to get every airline to simply pull out of every primary class B airport. That'll show those fractional providers.

Oh, and you're attitude summs up the main problem. You're "premium passengers" get fed up and find an alternative and you are mad at the provider of that alternative. Maybe you need to start thinking INSIDE the box, look in the mirrior and get your own house in order.

 

[Flopgut]

I'm not saying it's a great idea, but airlines have been known to play rough from time to time. And actually, if you do a little looking into it, a common carrier can decline service in certain instances. Not sure yet if this is an example, not sure if I want to or care that much really. We've got bigger issues.

Anyway, enjoy your good contract (I'm glad somebody has one, honestly), enjoy being a fartcatcher for some wealthy louse who's family hasn't worked in a few generations, and if you get a chance why don't you consider occasionally wishing us well?

 

[glasspilot]

I do wish you guys well. Honestly.

I just hate your product. It is such a pain in the @ss to fly these days. The pilots are professional, and I have quite a few friends who work for the majors. I just think the airlines have been run into the dirt ever since deregulation.

It's certainly not the pilots fault (and I've said as much above). I do wish you well though. Tough times for all...

 

[Flopgut]

I do wish you guys well. Honestly.

I just hate your product. It is such a pain in the @ss to fly these days. The pilots are professional, and I have quite a few friends who work for the majors. I just think the airlines have been run into the dirt ever since deregulation.

It's certainly not the pilots fault (and I've said as much above). I do wish you well though. Tough times for all...

I will agree we drop the ball on customer service. We have way too many employees at the airline that think their job would be better if it weren't for all the airplanes, flight crews, and customers. Mgt doesn't care that this is a flying business.

Take care and please consider the "fartcatcher" remark sincerely withdrawn.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Time = Money

Who needs to make any effort lobbying? Ford's display of the excess private jets are has helped a lot. That happens a few more times and, who knows?

I am surprised that CEOs have stayed as quiet as they have on the topic of executive transport options to be as fiscally efficient as possible considering their time is worth much more than the average American, not to mention to the company they work for.

The publicity gangbang that occured thanks to news outlets like CNN of Ford's management team arriving in DC to testify about the car industry shows either genuine ignorance on the part of the media (gasp!!! Say it ain't so) or a deliberate attempt at a ratings grab. The general public doesn't understand how a private jet can be used as a tool to increase the earnings of a company by allowing decision makers to cover more ground so that decisions that affect jobs can be made more quickly than if the team travelled through an airlines hub on a bad weather day according to that airline's schedule and from city pairs that the airline chooses to serve.

There is absolutley no way that a CEO could cover 3 city pair desintations in the North East (for example) in one day without private aviation options.

No decisions = bad news for business. Bad news for business is bad for employees, customers, suppliers, business partners and the economy.

CEOs have been much more polite (PC) about the issue than most would... But that's what they do.

For the general public (including u Flop) to assume that everyone in this countey should travel accoring to the same itenerary and mode on XYZ Airlines is quite Socialistic.

Commrade.