United moves slowly..................painfully

[LJDRVR]

I hate to see anybody lose their jobs, but United needs to be put in chapter 7 immediately.

I am disguted by the ability of an enterprise run by morons to hide behind the bankruptcy laws while failing to meet obligations to it's own employees. United is about to saddle the US taxpayer with an additional 7 Billion dollars worth of debt because they dont want to pay their own people's retirements. United owes it creditors 50 BILLION (that's not a typo folks) dollars, yet is able to skirt it's obligations while hiding behind a phalanx of lawyers and a bankruptcy judge that needs a mental competency hearing. There are no consequences for this criminality, in fact, United will use this perversion of Chapter 11 laws to be able to skirt it's responsibilities long enough to come back and compete with others carriers on an un-even playing field. (Fortunately, the financial reality of the situation, and the high likelyhood of self-help action by the workers will preclude this for going on forever.)

They've had their chance, it's time for United's leadership to face up to it's obligations. Namely, your employees and your creditors. 50 billion dollars! enough is enough!

 

[SWA/FO]

Its all over folks..

 

[LJDRVR]

!!!!!!!!!!!

"In the midst of bankruptcy, United earlier this year launched an airline-within-an-airline, Ted, to compete with discount carriers at their own game in Chicago, Denver, Washington and elsewhere. Although the company won't divulge its financial performance, Ted appears to be putting pressure on competitors. In Chicago, for example, United competitor ATA Airlines, a discounter flying from Midway, filed its own Chapter 11 bankruptcy this fall when it ran short of cash."

BBBBBBBWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes!! the mighty "Ted" flexes it's muscles as the LCC's finally begin to drop like flies.

Give me a break. Somebody needs to quit listening to her analyst sources and actually do some research.

 

[Big Duke Six]

"I am disguted by the ability of an enterprise run by morons to hide behind the bankruptcy laws while failing to meet obligations to it's own employees. United is about to saddle the US taxpayer with an additional 7 Billion dollars worth of debt because they dont want to pay their own people's retirements. United owes it creditors 50 BILLION (that's not a typo folks) dollars, yet is able to skirt it's obligations while hiding behind a phalanx of lawyers and a bankruptcy judge that needs a mental competency hearing. There are no consequences for this criminality, in fact, United will use this perversion of Chapter 11 laws to be able to skirt it's responsibilities long enough to come back and compete with others carriers on an un-even playing field. (Fortunately, the financial reality of the situation, and the high likelyhood of self-help action by the workers will preclude this for going on forever.)

They've had their chance, it's time for United's leadership to face up to it's obligations. Namely, your employees and your creditors. 50 billion dollars! enough is enough!"

LJDRVR - A booming "AMEN!" to you brother!

If UAL sticks the taxpayers with the pensions while cutting up labor agreementsin order to further reduce employee pay to the bone, I think it would be time for the pilots to walk. At some point, for the good of the industry, they need to do their part to shut down that godforsaken company. The FA's are ready. And people thought the Mesa contract vote was destructive? Wait till this comes to pass.

 

[crashpad]

The amount of morons on this board never ceases to amaze me. If only some of you guys ran the airlines, all would be well...not!

On a lighter note, happy holidays to everyone.

That put a smile on my face! Happy Holidays, you guys are doing a great job!

 

[WyoHerkdriver]

I hate to say it, but both USAir and UAL are dragging down the entire industry. How long can a company continue to "hide" in bankruptcy anyway? Is there a lawyer out there that can answer this question? UAL has been in bankruptcy for more than TWO years! I say enough is enough and I hope the employees at UAL feel the same way.

 

[klhoard]

Doesn't AmTrack operate at a loss on a continuous basis?

 

[UALjan15]

If UAL sticks the taxpayers with the pensions while cutting up labor agreementsin order to further reduce employee pay to the bone, I think it would be time for the pilots to walk. At some point, for the good of the industry, they need to do their part to shut down that godforsaken company. The FA's are ready. And people thought the Mesa contract vote was destructive? Wait till this comes to pass.

What a crock! You're asking almost 7000 pilots (+ 2200 furloughees) to voluntarily burn their house down and head to the unemployment line, all for "the good of the industry." Presumably, you think a UAL contract with no pension and reduced pay & work rules will lower the bar too far. Well, my friend, the bar is already that low. It has been set there by numerous LCCs that are currently growing unabated at the expense of UAL/DAL/AAL, etc. Put yourself in the shoes of Tilton & Co for a second--wouldn't you do everything you could to level the playing field between yourself and your LCC competition? Isn't Chpt 11 the perfect time to do it? Wouldn't you use every tool legally available to see it through? They are just doing what airline managers always do. It would take someone truly special to remake UAL into a competitive carrier without alienating the employee groups, and the current UAL management certainly isn't pulling it off.

That said, I hope the employees hold the line and refuse any further contract erosions. They'll have to give up pay, for sure, and the A-fund is mortally wounded. I'm sure there will be a TA that looks a lot better than what is on the table now, but it very well could be voted down. If management is going to demand the profession-on-a-platter, then maybe you let Wedoff decide. But to ask the pilots to join in a suicidal strike or work action, all for the sake of Big Duke Six, is extremely arrogant.

Finally, you assume that if UAL liquidates, all will be better, and the downward spiral in pay & work rules will stop. Ain't gonna happen. As long as they see a lower bar to strive for, the managers at other legacy carriers will continue the death spiral as long as they have the leverage to do so. And they will have the leverage as long as this funk of high fuel costs/low ticket yields continues. A UAL liquidation will do nothing to oil prices. As for ticket yields, that is a very complex equation. I believe yields would recover somewhat, but with LCCs adding new aircraft and service every month, pricing pressure will stay pretty low.

 

[Boeingman]

What a crock! You're asking almost 7000 pilots (+ 2200 furloughees) to voluntarily burn their house down and head to the unemployment line, all for "the good of the industry." Presumably, you think a UAL contract with no pension and reduced pay & work rules will lower the bar too far.

UAL ALPA had no problems telling the CAL pilots in 83 to do exact the same thing when Lorenzo was decimating our contract. Although the arrogance shown from our friends at USAIR was the greatest, we sure did get numerous visits from the UAL boys and girls telling us to "sacrifice" our careers for the "good of the industry" and to "not lower the bar".

Why now, that the shoe is on the other foot, do we not hear the same hue and cry from your own? For the good of the industry of course.

Presumably, you think a UAL contract with no pension and reduced pay & work rules will lower the bar too far.

It will given your size. But nothing can compare to the willingness of our friends at USAIR to keep bending over, grabbing their ankles and gritting their teeth every time the company cries liquidation.

Pardon my cynasism but watching this unfold and listening to the hypocrisy is almost laughable. I ask anyone here, what is the difference in the end between Lorenzo and the CEO's of today? Now that is NOT an endorsement for Frank, but why is there not the same uproar within ALPA that we faced to fight Frank?These companies are, essentially doing the same thing...that in the end Lorenzo did to CAL.

 

[skykid]

Finally, you assume that if UAL liquidates, all will be better, and the downward spiral in pay & work rules will stop.

That is well said. Just reference the almost weekly new thread on this forum that goes something like "When is Virgin USA going to start hiring?" There will be thousands lined up to turn in those applications and guess what, if Branson cut whatever he is going to pay by 20% right now, there will still be thousands of applications.

Blaming United pilots for lowering the bar is just as silly as blaming LCC pilots. When my defined pension is gone, I'm going to be left with a B plan that I've already had that is competitive with the LCCs retirement plans. I never counted on the A fund and I can live with that. If you are at a legacy and you have a defined pension, its gone. It may take longer, and you may not want to face it, but it is gone no matter what happens here in the short term. Go try and a new job in any industry besides working for the government (US gov is already slowly phasing out defined pensions) and see what your retirement plan is.

Boeingman, I disagree about current CEOs being just like Lorenzo. The view of what UAL mgt is doing on this board is completely one-sided. Any progress or good done is ignored. Someone actually posted a thread today on UAL's new international service which is part of taking advantage of booming Asian markets. Amazing how all this happens without a plan. Take care.

 

[UALjan15]

UAL ALPA had no problems telling the CAL pilots in 83 to do exact the same thing when Lorenzo was decimating our contract. Although the arrogance shown from our friends at USAIR was the greatest, we sure did get numerous visits from the UAL boys and girls telling us to "sacrifice" our careers for the "good of the industry" and to "not lower the bar".

Although it was well before my time, I don't doubt that it happened. And you are correct, the irony is almost laughable. All I can say is that sacrificing your career wasn't the right answer then, and it isn't today, either. I, for one, am glad that you are still around.

Pardon my cynasism but watching this unfold and listening to the hypocrisy is almost laughable. I ask anyone here, what is the difference in the end between Lorenzo and the CEO's of today? Now that is NOT an endorsement for Frank, but why is there not the same uproar within ALPA that we faced to fight Frank?These companies are, essentially doing the same thing...that in the end Lorenzo did to CAL.

Boeingman, you have been there, done that. The 80s were tough times for CAL pilots, but also for UAL pilots under Ferris. What is the difference, you ask? From my perspective, the fight CAL and UAL went through in the 80s was against a identifiable management teams, and I think today's fight is much more market driven. I don't care who you put at the helm of UAL today, they have a tough task, and just taking ALPA out behind the woodshed for another round isn't going to cure anything.

 

[Boeingman]

Although it was well before my time, I don't doubt that it happened. And you are correct, the irony is almost laughable. All I can say is that sacrificing your career wasn't the right answer then, and it isn't today, either. I, for one, am glad that you are still around.

I agree with your comment entirely about career sacrificing and I am glad my comment wasn’t misconstrued that since it was suggested to us I agreed with it for you. No one should sacrifice their careers for anyone. I nearly dropped one of your DC-8 Captains after a very heated discussion about this very subject a long time ago. I appreciate the comment about being around BTW.

From my perspective, the fight CAL and UAL went through in the 80s was against a identifiable management teams, and I think today's fight is much more market driven.

Excellent analysis. However when you strip away all the hype it all boils down to this one fact Frank did everything he could to abrogate the contracts through the bankruptcy process. When you look at the UAL situation coldly, in essence, that is exactly what Tilton is trying to do. Albeit from a much more low key position than Frank. But the end game is still the same on that one level.

I don't care who you put at the helm of UAL today, they have a tough task, and just taking ALPA out behind the woodshed for another round isn't going to cure anything .

Correct about UAL’s situation. Who knows, maybe Gordo will take over UAL and merge us.

What is becoming the norm is that ALPA acts less and less like a national union. It is as if we are part of the same army but fight from different foxholes. There is no clear cohesive battle plan and the troops are getting slaughtered (furloughed, job loss). Meanwhile the brass sit in Herndon back slapping and glad handing each other for their perceived gains in the political arena.

I’m not sure what the answer is right now, but I can tell you my opinion. The continued milquetoast responses and actions to date of ALPA regarding the rape of all of our pensions to the abuse of the bankruptcy courts abrogating contracts is unacceptable.

Boeingman, I disagree about current CEOs being just like Lorenzo. The view of what UAL mgt is doing on this board is completely one-sided. Any progress or good done is ignored. Someone actually posted a thread today on UAL's new international service which is part of taking advantage of booming Asian markets. Amazing how all this happens without a plan. Take care.

I should of clarified that Lorenzo comment a little better. Like I said above, the end result is still the same. The use of the courts or pressure from the creditors to renegotiate CBA’s is, in the end the same sham Frank pulled. UAL management from what I last read is going to go back to the judge for more.

I think the issue of any progress at UAL is buried under the weight of continued financial losses. For what ever reason.


Good discussion gents.

 

[Big Duke Six]

Yes, good discussion gents.

UALjan15, I really don't expect anyone to fall on their sword for just me. But it is a little disheartening to see you guys get tossed around without, as someone posted earlier, any peep at all about walking to "save the industry". You know as well as I do that a couple years ago your compadres were asking it of everyone else just hanging on to their jobs while their mgmt screwed them over. That's really the point of my first post.

I guess the bitterness on my part is from the blatant abuse of the bankruptcy laws on the part of UAL mgmt. Maybe it is all legal, and if it is, then it is the moral character of the mgmt team that sets me off. This sets an ugly precedent that is sure to do deep, irrepairable harm to the industry. Of that there is no doubt. I do, believe me, feel deeply for all the UAL employees that have to suffer through this. But your defense of Tilton for his tactics is not objective. As I said earlier, now that it's in your own backyard it seems to make more sense - to you. It seems OK now - to you. Well then, maybe some good has come out of it then. You've learned compassion for the others who stood in your shoes before you.

But think of it this way: if Delta (just as an example) had been running in bankruptcy for two years, dreaming up new ways to put the screws to their employees, all the while selling tickets at a price meant to do nothing more than to damage as many other companies as they could on the way out, knowing they would lose money on them but oh well, it didn't matter because they weren't going to pay their freaking bills anyway, YOU WOULD HAVE RIGHTLY SCREAMED BLOODY MURDER. I have no doubt about that.

And I would have joined you.

It's not just you guys. I know that. I'm talking to everyone. Somebody has to stop this. I know it is painful for you guys, and I truly hope for your sake that it ends soon.