United moves slowly..................painfully

[UALjan15]

UAL ALPA had no problems telling the CAL pilots in 83 to do exact the same thing when Lorenzo was decimating our contract. Although the arrogance shown from our friends at USAIR was the greatest, we sure did get numerous visits from the UAL boys and girls telling us to "sacrifice" our careers for the "good of the industry" and to "not lower the bar".

Although it was well before my time, I don't doubt that it happened. And you are correct, the irony is almost laughable. All I can say is that sacrificing your career wasn't the right answer then, and it isn't today, either. I, for one, am glad that you are still around.

Pardon my cynasism but watching this unfold and listening to the hypocrisy is almost laughable. I ask anyone here, what is the difference in the end between Lorenzo and the CEO's of today? Now that is NOT an endorsement for Frank, but why is there not the same uproar within ALPA that we faced to fight Frank?These companies are, essentially doing the same thing...that in the end Lorenzo did to CAL.

Boeingman, you have been there, done that. The 80s were tough times for CAL pilots, but also for UAL pilots under Ferris. What is the difference, you ask? From my perspective, the fight CAL and UAL went through in the 80s was against a identifiable management teams, and I think today's fight is much more market driven. I don't care who you put at the helm of UAL today, they have a tough task, and just taking ALPA out behind the woodshed for another round isn't going to cure anything.

 

[Boeingman]

Although it was well before my time, I don't doubt that it happened. And you are correct, the irony is almost laughable. All I can say is that sacrificing your career wasn't the right answer then, and it isn't today, either. I, for one, am glad that you are still around.

I agree with your comment entirely about career sacrificing and I am glad my comment wasn’t misconstrued that since it was suggested to us I agreed with it for you. No one should sacrifice their careers for anyone. I nearly dropped one of your DC-8 Captains after a very heated discussion about this very subject a long time ago. I appreciate the comment about being around BTW.

From my perspective, the fight CAL and UAL went through in the 80s was against a identifiable management teams, and I think today's fight is much more market driven.

Excellent analysis. However when you strip away all the hype it all boils down to this one fact Frank did everything he could to abrogate the contracts through the bankruptcy process. When you look at the UAL situation coldly, in essence, that is exactly what Tilton is trying to do. Albeit from a much more low key position than Frank. But the end game is still the same on that one level.

I don't care who you put at the helm of UAL today, they have a tough task, and just taking ALPA out behind the woodshed for another round isn't going to cure anything .

Correct about UAL’s situation. Who knows, maybe Gordo will take over UAL and merge us.

What is becoming the norm is that ALPA acts less and less like a national union. It is as if we are part of the same army but fight from different foxholes. There is no clear cohesive battle plan and the troops are getting slaughtered (furloughed, job loss). Meanwhile the brass sit in Herndon back slapping and glad handing each other for their perceived gains in the political arena.

I’m not sure what the answer is right now, but I can tell you my opinion. The continued milquetoast responses and actions to date of ALPA regarding the rape of all of our pensions to the abuse of the bankruptcy courts abrogating contracts is unacceptable.

Boeingman, I disagree about current CEOs being just like Lorenzo. The view of what UAL mgt is doing on this board is completely one-sided. Any progress or good done is ignored. Someone actually posted a thread today on UAL's new international service which is part of taking advantage of booming Asian markets. Amazing how all this happens without a plan. Take care.

I should of clarified that Lorenzo comment a little better. Like I said above, the end result is still the same. The use of the courts or pressure from the creditors to renegotiate CBA’s is, in the end the same sham Frank pulled. UAL management from what I last read is going to go back to the judge for more.

I think the issue of any progress at UAL is buried under the weight of continued financial losses. For what ever reason.


Good discussion gents.

 

[Big Duke Six]

Yes, good discussion gents.

UALjan15, I really don't expect anyone to fall on their sword for just me. But it is a little disheartening to see you guys get tossed around without, as someone posted earlier, any peep at all about walking to "save the industry". You know as well as I do that a couple years ago your compadres were asking it of everyone else just hanging on to their jobs while their mgmt screwed them over. That's really the point of my first post.

I guess the bitterness on my part is from the blatant abuse of the bankruptcy laws on the part of UAL mgmt. Maybe it is all legal, and if it is, then it is the moral character of the mgmt team that sets me off. This sets an ugly precedent that is sure to do deep, irrepairable harm to the industry. Of that there is no doubt. I do, believe me, feel deeply for all the UAL employees that have to suffer through this. But your defense of Tilton for his tactics is not objective. As I said earlier, now that it's in your own backyard it seems to make more sense - to you. It seems OK now - to you. Well then, maybe some good has come out of it then. You've learned compassion for the others who stood in your shoes before you.

But think of it this way: if Delta (just as an example) had been running in bankruptcy for two years, dreaming up new ways to put the screws to their employees, all the while selling tickets at a price meant to do nothing more than to damage as many other companies as they could on the way out, knowing they would lose money on them but oh well, it didn't matter because they weren't going to pay their freaking bills anyway, YOU WOULD HAVE RIGHTLY SCREAMED BLOODY MURDER. I have no doubt about that.

And I would have joined you.

It's not just you guys. I know that. I'm talking to everyone. Somebody has to stop this. I know it is painful for you guys, and I truly hope for your sake that it ends soon.