United looking more and more like USAIR

[Morgoth]

Evidently two wrongs make a right in your book. I think the objective third party arbitrator gave you more than what was fair in regard to a merged seniority list.

A third-party arbitrator that they AGREED TO, no less. Unbelievable, the arrogance. Another airline saves you from going out of business completely, which let's face it is what USAir was looking at, and then you have the gall to try to overturn an arbitrator's decision that you agreed to abide by. Amazing lack of integrity.

 

[DAL737FO]

without using a DOH method would you think this integration was fair:

Company A: 50 actual flying pilot positions with 10 widebody flying positions.

Company B: 25 actual flying pilot positions with 0 widebody flying positions.

Each companies narrowbody positions pay about the same. Arbitrator rules, Company A gets the top 10 positions due to flying larger aircraft with more pay. Company A is twice as large as company B so narrowbody flying positions integrated at a ratio of 2:1 starting with company A since they are the acquiring airline (so Company A actually gets the top 12 slots). So here we go:

1 A
2 A
3 A
4 A
5 A
6 A
7 A
8 A
9 A
10 A
11 A
12 A
13 B
14 A
15 A
16 B
17 A
18 A
19 B
20 A
21 A
22 B
23 A
24 A
25 B
26 A
27 A
28 B
29 A
30 A
31 B
32 A
33 A
34 B
35 A
36 A
37 B
38 A
39 A
40 B
41 A
42 A
43 B
44 A
45 A
46 B
47 A
48 A
49 B
50 A
51 A
52 B
53 A
54 A
55 B
56 A
57 A
58 B
59 A
60 A
61 B
62 A
63 A
64 B
65 A
66 A
67 B
68 A
69 A
70 B
71 B
72 B
73 B
74 B
75 B

So Company A gets the top slots for widebody flying and the rest of the list is merged by ratio which leaves the bottom slots (of actual aircraft seats brought to the merger) to company B. Seems pretty fair so far, well lets add in that Company A, although larger is not the acquiring airline. Additionally Company A has 20 more pilots not occupying actual flying pilot positions at the time of the merger due to furlough. Where should those pilots go? Bump off company B pilots that are currently in an actual flying position? Have to wait until recall then get to slotted in above the guy that has a DOH of one day junior? I'm just curious, as I don't have a dog in this hunt, if you think that in the scenario above that the Company A furlough pilots should bump off all but 5 of the company B pilots?

 

[MCDU]

Our bottom pilot (1988) on the nic award was only at the bottom at a snap shot in 2005.A few years earlier he was either a junior Captain or very senior first officer. He was not hired in 1988 and then remained at the bottom ever since. Right now a bottom nic award 1988 hire are holding 190 Captain positions or a wide body F/Os. Your bottom guy has always been at bottom. This articial snap shot is bull, because things are very dynamic.

The Nic award has no fences or protections at all. DOH does and in ten years AWA pilots will be able to use their time in service to their advantage. A virgin america captain should not be allowed to take one year and turn in in to 20 if merged with United for example. He should however keep his Captain seat in the number of postions they came with.

Marty

 

[TWA Dude]

A virgin america captain should not be allowed to take one year and turn in in to 20 if merged with United for example. He should however keep his Captain seat in the number of postions they came with.

So then in your view that VA captain deserves to remain a captain -- unless there are furloughs in which case he's less of a captain since he'll be furloughed ahead of senior FOs. Fences don't protect from furlough. Fences don't protect from furlough. I repeated it twice on purpose since you continue to ignore it.

Nicolau ruled the way he did for a reason and he's been around unions and this industry decades longer than you have.

 

[MCDU]

Well, the way I look at it, somone who has been flying 15years at the company should stay and someone with 2 years gets furloughed.
Like TWA. It should have been DOH with American for furloughs. Even Empire and Piedmont had DOH in case of furlough and protections. TWA pilots got screwed and DOH would have kept many on the property.


Marty

 

[Freight Dog]

Marty, does it really matter what someone held 10 years ago, 5 years ago, 3 years ago?

Should captains who flew 747's at America West then get widebody positions too? Or is it what you brought to the merger that matters?

No matter which way you slice it... you are WRONG on all counts. This is not to say that you weren't dealt a sh*tty card in your career with US Air. However, you chose the absolute wrong way to attempt to fix those sh*t cards you were originally dealt.

 

[TWA Dude]

Well, the way I look at it, somone who has been flying 15years at the company should stay and someone with 2 years gets furloughed.

You're still stuck on the premise that the new USAirways is the same company. The old USAirways disappeared in bankruptcy court in September, 2005, and a new company emerged that was a combination of USAirways and AWA. We even got a new stock ticker. This is why the snapshot method makes most sense because the past history of the mergering carriers isn't as important as the future.

Like TWA. It should have been DOH with American for furloughs.

For once I agree with you but I'm honest enough to admit that it's because a DOH integration would've worked out very well for us. I'd have been satisfied with plain relative seniority.

Even Empire and Piedmont had DOH in case of furlough and protections.

ALPA Merger Policy was different back then so it's irrelevent to compare.

TWA pilots got screwed and DOH would have kept many on the property.

You still don't get it. We at TWA were screwed because the APA got to unilaterally decide how to integrate us. I'm convinced an arbitrator would've been much kinder to us than the APA. We'll never know since we were denied that opportunity. And now you hypocritically feel USAPA is justified trying to do the same thing the APA did to TWA. How nice of you.

 

[dispatchguy]

We at TWA were screwed because the APA got to unilaterally decide how to integrate us.

When I was a dispatcher at Eagle, our Shop Steward for the TWU showed me a portion of the purchase agreement that AMR shoved down TWA's throat. It stated that AMR would not be bound by, nor will recognize, the seniority of any employee group at TWA.

When the TWA TWU Dispatchers came to DFW, all were furloughed. I hate what AMR did to a good company.

 

[Golden Falcon]

Not defending AMR, but TWA was toast anyway dude..all AMR did was eat the crumbs that were left over..if not AMR, all former TWA employees would have lost their jobs...

 

[imacdog]

Kind of like USAirways pilots?

 

[TWA Dude]

Not defending AMR, but TWA was toast anyway dude..all AMR did was eat the crumbs that were left over..if not AMR, all former TWA employees would have lost their jobs...

Thanks for your officious opinion. You would do well to read the Nicolau Award and see how he approached the issue of USAir's financial condition. Probably not what you'd expect.

 

[glasspilot1]

Not defending AMR, but TWA was toast anyway dude..all AMR did was eat the crumbs that were left over..if not AMR, all former TWA employees would have lost their jobs...

Falcon:

For the millionth time, that is not correct. TWA only entered bankruptcy as a condition of the deal with American. We were not about to go out of business!

The CEO's only made it sound that way in front of congress to make the deal happen. AA natives love this version of things to justify, in their minds, the screwing we got.