United Express returns to DEN and evacs on rwy...

[princeton]

I think the pilot f-ed it up by not using his complete call sign. Using a partial call sign on a routine basis is a bad habit because in situations like this, saying jetlink or acey prior to the flight number will not come naturally.....

You guys are full of it. Who said he "routinely" failed to say "Acey"?

They were in an emergency situation with smoke filling the cockpit ... saying the flight number to abbreviate the radio call should have been more than enough to roll the trucks, even though not 100% the best procedure. The controller CLEARLY dropped the ball, he heard an emergency call and failed to react. If he wasn't sure he should have rolled the trucks anyway, just in case.

I flew with a guy that had this exact same scenario, (blew an engine seal and all the engine oil feeds into the packs, A/I etc.) and his view of the instruments was obstructed WITHIN SECONDS.

On top of that they were flying an approach, trying to get the mask and goggles on, wondering what was going on really and probably with the FA dinging and yelling through the door, all in a snowstorm close to minimums.

I can only assume you are not a pilot.

 

[Varmint]

I don't think the controller should be raked over the coals, but neither should the crew. They had their hands full.

100%. The news is reporting the FAA is investigating the controller. The news' "consultant", ex-NTSB investigator Greg Feith, was on chastising the handling by the controller.

I think the outcome was good and I am not placing blame or throwing darts. Nobody should be investigated in this incident. Just making an observation on something that I am going to try to improve on with my communication so I get the services I need when I need them.

 

[princeton]

100%. The news is reporting the FAA is investigating the controller. The news' "consultant", ex-NTSB investigator Greg Feith, was on chastising the handling by the controller.

I think the outcome was good and I am not placing blame or throwing darts. Nobody should be investigated in this incident. Just making an observation on something that I am going to try to improve on with my communication so I get the services I need when I need them.

So if you get an engine fire warning in the cockpit and disregard it "because it's probably a faulty detector", you think you shouldn't be held responsible for failing to run the engine fire checklist?

Same with this controller, of course he should be held responsible. He heard an emergency declared with a request to roll the trucks, yet he did nothing. What difference does it make if he heard the callsign or not.

I'm not saying he should be fired but a little retraining wouldn't hurt.

 

[Varmint]

You guys are full of it. Who said he "routinely" failed to say "Acey"?

They were in an emergency situation with smoke filling the cockpit ... saying the flight number to abbreviate the radio call should have been more than enough to roll the trucks, even though not 100% the best procedure. The controller CLEARLY dropped the ball, he heard an emergency call and failed to react. If he wasn't sure he should have rolled the trucks anyway, just in case.

I flew with a guy that had this exact same scenario, (blew an engine seal and all the engine oil feeds into the packs, A/I etc.) and his view of the instruments was obstructed WITHIN SECONDS.

On top of that they were flying an approach, trying to get the mask and goggles on, wondering what was going on really and probably with the FA dinging and yelling through the door, all in a snowstorm close to minimums.

I can only assume you are not a pilot.

I can assume you have no other skills but flying an airplane....but that doesn't mean I am correct.

If the controller heard "United 12", which was not an aircraft under his control he should have rolled the trucks? That is like saying if an aircraft declares an emergency on 121.5, every airport that hears the emergency should scramble their trucks before knowing the aircraft's position.....presumably a 300nm wide circle around the aircraft's position. Additionally, how is the controller supposed to specify a response location to emergency services for a flight he doesn't know the location of.

Aviate, navigate, communicate. Sure, the guys had their hands full, no doubt about that, they are trained professionals so they managed the situation with a successful outcome.

Do you have a constructive comment on something that could have been done differently so the confusion could have been eliminated other than the one that I have presented involving using the full call sign rather than the abbreviated numbers? Or, is your solution to spend everyone's tax dollars having emergency services drive around the airport looking for phantom emergency aircraft with no known position.

 

[Varmint]

So if you get an engine fire warning in the cockpit and disregard it "because it's probably a faulty detector", you think you shouldn't be held responsible for failing to run the engine fire checklist?

Same with this controller, of course he should be held responsible. He heard an emergency declared with a request to roll the trucks, yet he did nothing. What difference does it make if he heard the callsign or not.

I'm not saying he should be fired but a little retraining wouldn't hurt.

Apples and oranges.

My engine fire warning is connected to something that I know the location of.

Where is the controller supposed to roll the trucks to? He doesn't know the flight number he heard because the pilot did not follow the AIM and use his full call sign so he has no idea of the emergency aircraft's location. If the controller responds the trucks from the centrally located fire station to a random location, it could take LONGER for trucks to reach where they actually need to be.

 

[OPECJet]

Apples and oranges.

My engine fire warning is connected to something that I know the location of.

Where is the controller supposed to roll the trucks to? He doesn't know the flight number he heard because the pilot did not follow the AIM and use his full call sign so he has no idea of the emergency aircraft's location. If the controller responds the trucks from the centrally located fire station to a random location, it could take LONGER for trucks to reach where they actually need to be.

We have a winner.

121 aircraft need EVAS installed before someone gets killed over a crew not being able to read the panel. Also, using your full callsign in each transmission needs to be second nature. If it is, you'll use it during a hellaciously stressful time like evacuating on an active runway with an airplane full of smoke.

These guys still did a fine job. Many less serious situations have caused crews to wad up an airplane.

 

[dojetdriver]

Where is the controller supposed to roll the trucks to? He doesn't know the flight number he heard because the pilot did not follow the AIM and use his full call sign so he has no idea of the emergency aircraft's location. If the controller responds the trucks from the centrally located fire station to a random location, it could take LONGER for trucks to reach where they actually need to be.

Oh, I don't know. Maybe a little bit more proactive reaction could have possibly been something like.......

"aircraft with the emergency and evac, say call sign and location"

As opposed to going by what he thinks he heard, saying what he thinks he heard over the radio, naturally not getting a response and basically doing little about it.

 

[COOPERVANE]

The transcript is WRONG!! He clearly said "acey 5912 we're evacuating on the runway" but the transcript reads "this is 5912 we're evacuating on the runway"

maybe we should go back to Chandler

 

[Hypoxik]

The controller has strips. He had just cleared "5912" to land...

 

[trip]

Pretty simple really, If the controller heard someone say "United 12 is emergency roll trucks" but he doesn't have a United 12 (but does have 5912) then would you not assume you heard wrong and query? not just immediately conclude it was a hoax. How often have you heard a hoax anyway? In 15 years I have not heard one.
I don't want to see the controller raked over the coals either, they do a great job out there but some training in emergency situations and introduction to smoke in the cockpit would be in order.

 

[thepotato232]

Just for the record, the first call the crew made after the smoke started led with a rushed "Acey 5912." When DEN asked again who made the call was when they responded simply "5912." That wasn't their full callsign, of course, but it also didn't sound much like "United 12," whereas the initial adrenaline-spiked call made into the mic of an O2 mask could conceivably sound a bit like "This is United 12."

The controller shouldn't be fired or anything, but he certainly didn't have much basis to make the logical leap to a fake call.

 

[princeton]

I can assume you have no other skills but flying an airplane....but that doesn't mean I am correct.
.

What does that even mean? What "skills", how would you know what skills I may or may not have? Do you mean incorrect?

You are obviously mildly retarded so I'll spell it out:
I disagreed with your statements "the pilots f'ed it up ..... the pilots routinely failed to use the full call sign" and on and on. You don't know what they "routinely do".
My point is: the controller was clearly remiss in jumping to the "prank" assumption and not asking more questions.

 

[princeton]

How do you know?

'cause he probably gets the same company information emails. Visibility was less than a foot in the cockpit.

 

[wms]

We have a winner.

121 aircraft need EVAS installed before someone gets killed over a crew not being able to read the panel. Also, using your full callsign in each transmission needs to be second nature. If it is, you'll use it during a hellaciously stressful time like evacuating on an active runway with an airplane full of smoke.

These guys still did a fine job. Many less serious situations have caused crews to wad up an airplane.

Bingo.

 

[BoilerUP]

121 aircraft need EVAS installed before someone gets killed over a crew not being able to read the panel.

Already happened...UPS 6

 

[dojetdriver]

Already happened...UPS 6

Good point. It may have helped those guys. However, just like Swissair, the fire may have spread so fast that EVAS may not have been able to contain the fire, and the damage the fire did to the aircrafts systems. Possible, but I don't think the UPS guys were gonna win that one, just like Swissair.