United and Continental get DOT approval

[whymeworry?]

Is UAL still furloughing?

 

[ewrord]

Is UAL still furloughing?

Is the pope still practicing Catholicism?

 

[contrail67]

always have the "intelligent" posts still....gotta love it.

 

[Captain X]

Can someone, in their infinite FI.com wisdom, please explain how DOT approval for CAL to move from one global alliance system to another in any way indicates a merger of two domestic US carriers?

The article states that CAL has been granted approval to join with Air Canada, Lufthansa, and yes, also United.

No different than when CAL was granted approval to join the SkyTeam alliance and partnered with DAL, NWA, Air France/KLM.

(cue reference to Contract '97 Management Playbook 101: Superbowl Sunday DAL Merger)

The DAL rumor got big feet basically that one time. Maybe one other time the rumor floated around. A NWA/CAL merger rumor was a lot more prevalant the whole time. CAL never merged with either.

 

[Ben Franklin]

Can someone, in their infinite FI.com wisdom, please explain how DOT approval for CAL to move from one global alliance system to another in any way indicates a merger of two domestic US carriers?

(this is for everyone else, Captain X...)

As a CAL pilot, would you rather be whipsawed against UAL pilots to win Star Alliance flying or would you rather merge with them and win all of the US flying for Star Alliance as one airline?

I know what ALPA wants... kinda *

*I don't know

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[ATRCA]

Can someone, in their infinite FI.com wisdom, please explain how DOT approval for CAL to move from one global alliance system to another in any way indicates a merger of two domestic US carriers?

The article states that CAL has been granted approval to join with Air Canada, Lufthansa, and yes, also United.

No different than when CAL was granted approval to join the SkyTeam alliance and partnered with DAL, NWA, Air France/KLM.

(cue reference to Contract '97 Management Playbook 101: Superbowl Sunday DAL Merger)

The DAL rumor got big feet basically that one time. Maybe one other time the rumor floated around. A NWA/CAL merger rumor was a lot more prevalant the whole time. CAL never merged with either.

UAL wants the merger. UAL employees want the merger. Oh sure, they'll come on here and tell everyone about how they don't want or need to merge with anyone but quietly they desperately want it. Give it a few weeks and this talk will subside again. Reality will set in and we won't be talking about a merger for at least another 4 or 5 months.

I'm no MBA but tell me again what CAL gets merging with a company in UAL's current financial shape? I think there is a good reason why Larry and team walked away from the last merger attempt. It wasn't because they thought CAL would be worse off without the merger.........??

 

[ewrord]

always have the "intelligent" posts still....gotta love it.

I think I am entitled to speak that way of United since they have furloughed me.

 

[IAHERJ]

UAL wants the merger. UAL employees want the merger. Oh sure, they'll come on here and tell everyone about how they don't want or need to merge with anyone but quietly they desperately want it. Give it a few weeks and this talk will subside again. Reality will set in and we won't be talking about a merger for at least another 4 or 5 months.

I'm no MBA but tell me again what CAL gets merging with a company in UAL's current financial shape? I think there is a good reason why Larry and team walked away from the last merger attempt. It wasn't because they thought CAL would be worse off without the merger.........??

Umm, have you seen our latest numbers? It's not like we are out there killing the industry with our performance and revenue numbers here at CAL. We have been running at the back of the pack in on time arrivals and our misshandled bag numbers aren't that great either. We have pilots on furlough just like United does. I'm not viewing a merger with United as negatively as I did a year ago.

 

[Schwanker]

Spot on. The fact CAL joined the STAR Alliance was simply due to DAL and NWA merging and presenting an unfavorable situation for CAL with SkyTeam...nothing more, nothing less.

CAL is positioning itself nicely in the event of a UAL failure. Unfortunately, keeping Glenn in charge increases the probabilities. A merger would definately be in the best interest for UAL employees. I can't imagine CAL seeing it in there best interest unless UAL is significantly "right sized" so they take only the pieces that fit. UAL has some great hubs and equipment and a real nice Pacific operation. The STAR definately needs these pieces to be competitive. UAL also has a lot of baggage/overlap that would require discarding prior to a merge. I don't see it happening as CAL would be in a perfect position to "pick up the pieces" if it came to that. JMHO.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

I think the bottom line is this. Consolidation will happen...when who knows. Would a CAL/UAL merger be a good bet probably but not w/ UAL mgmt. As for me I for one say get it over with and get rid of the UAL name. Too many bad memories w/ the name. Besides CAL has been around almost as long if i'm not mistaken.

 

[eaglesview]

CAL is positioning itself nicely in the event of a UAL failure. Unfortunately, keeping Glenn in charge increases the probabilities. A merger would definately be in the best interest for UAL employees. I can't imagine CAL seeing it in there best interest unless UAL is significantly "right sized" so they take only the pieces that fit. UAL has some great hubs and equipment and a real nice Pacific operation. The STAR definately needs these pieces to be competitive. UAL also has a lot of baggage/overlap that would require discarding prior to a merge. I don't see it happening as CAL would be in a perfect position to "pick up the pieces" if it came to that. JMHO.

What....Right sizing....We have gone from 10,500 pilots to about 6,400. When in your humble opinion are we the "right size?" I am one that does want a merger. Not because CO is the cats meow in the airline business as they have problems just like us but our managements WILL play one group against the other which a merger will solve. There is no perfect solution, you have to pick your poison.

 

[whatitdoing?]

0.....

 

[eaglesview]

0.....

you will understand if anyone with half a brain ignores that.

 

[whatitdoing?]

I have to explain what I think?

 

[whatitdoing?]

Ya, just like Pan Am and Eastern. Who would of thought!!?? I remember my mom who flew for Pan Am said they all would just laugh and say impossible. And when it happened, she said everyone was walking around like zombies. Complete disbelief....

 

[eaglesview]

Ya, just like Pan Am and Eastern. Who would of thought!!?? I remember my mom who flew for Pan Am said they all would just laugh and say impossible. And when it happened, she said everyone was walking around like zombies. Complete disbelief....

You highlighted the portion of my quote that read,"when do you think we are the right size." (paraphrasing) your responce was 0. Your explanation has nothing to do with that. I have never said it would be impossible for UAL or any airline to go out of business. I do know that I do not wish that on anyone. By the way I am ex Eastern and am fully aware of the attitude there.

 

[Schwanker]

What....Right sizing....We have gone from 10,500 pilots to about 6,400. When in your humble opinion are we the "right size?" I am one that does want a merger. Not because CO is the cats meow in the airline business as they have problems just like us but our managements WILL play one group against the other which a merger will solve. There is no perfect solution, you have to pick your poison.

I've always been a fan of UAL. It's nearly criminal what's going on there as Glenn doesn't have a clue how to lead this once great operation. He couldn't point to the sky if his life depended on it. UAL still has great routes/assets/ and brand, but these are being further marginalized by the day. By right sized, it would have to be the right size to complement CAL's operation without overlap or baggage. Obviously, I don't know what that number is but I would guess it's significantly less than UAL is now. I really wish all the UAL guys the best. I have lots of close friends flying there today.

 

[whatitdoing?]

I've always been a fan of UAL. It's nearly criminal what's going on there as Glenn doesn't have a clue how to lead this once great operation. He couldn't point to the sky if his life depended on it. UAL still has great routes/assets/ and brand, but these are being further marginalized by the day. By right sized, it would have to be the right size to complement CAL's operation without overlap or baggage. Obviously, I don't know what that number is but I would guess it's significantly less than UAL is now. I really wish all the UAL guys the best. I have lots of close friends flying there today.

That's my whole point. It's nowhere near where it has to be. There's a trigger, but I think it could pull two different guns. Good luck.....

 

[skywdriver]

(this is for everyone else, Captain X...)

As a CAL pilot, would you rather be whipsawed against UAL pilots to win Star Alliance flying or would you rather merge with them and win all of the US flying for Star Alliance as one airline?

I know what ALPA wants... kinda *

*I don't know

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

We (CAL) cannot enter into a Joint Venture with United until current contract language is changed. With that in mind, I am very sure that the only changes to our current scope that would be approved would be ones that protect our interests.

I am not interested in a CAL verses UAL game, but I am even less interested in merging with a company that has relatively old airplanes and no new ones on order. In fact whipsawing in this industry will always take place - in contract negotiations (we have to stay cheap to grow), in ticket price wars between the airlines, in putting senior pilots against junior pilots, and so on. Until there is a national seniority list and pilots are free to move from one airline to another, airline management ultimately will always hold the power over the pilot groups.

As far as mergers go, someone please explain what CAL has to gain from a merger now that we will be part of the Star Alliance and will be milking the alliance with all the airlines approved under the antri-trust immunity. What exactly would UAL have to offer us? I would guess the first answer would be the Asian routes. Ten years ago, I would agree with that. However, with the whole "open skies" mentality of the world, I doubt very seriously that the once coveted and limited routes of the past will be that difficult to gain access to. To do that, CAL needs two things - west coast presence (which we don't have now but will have via the alliance with UAL and airplanes to fly those routes - we have plenty of orders for those). So, from a business perspective it makes perfect sense what the CAL management is trying to do. We pretty much get most of the gain out of the alliance with UAL without all the added costs and labor nightmares. However, if for some reason the antitrust immunity is not approved, I would bet everything on a merger shortly thereafter. CAL and UAL would both need each other in that case, and I am sure it would happen. Anyways, just my opinion.

 

[skywdriver]

One more thing to add, any negative references to UAL are purely business related. We all ended up at the airlines that we did mostly by chance. When I speak poorly of an airline, I am speaking only to the decisions that have been made by their management team, not all the folks out on line getting the job done.