United Airlines F/O makes a stand!

[AA717driver]

But wait! I have an idea. Why don't we just stop going to work at UAL and sacrifice what jobs and earnings we have left? That way, we can let the rest of you have a better career. Let's just pack it in. Hey, why not? You'd do the same for me, right, my band of brothers?

I'll drop it in the suggestion box in ops.

Funny you should mention that, UAL. That's exactly what the UAL pilots in my friend's C-130 unit in COS suggested TWA do several years ago. To his face, they said "Why doesn't TWA do the right thing for the good of the industry and go out of business."

Maybe they understand now.TC

 

[Big Duke Six]

Exactly!

 

[skykid]

That's exactly what the UAL pilots in my friend's C-130 unit in COS suggested TWA do several years ago.

That's what I heard too. Only it wasn't a C-130 unit in COS, it was a KC-135 unit in New York and it was my friend's uncle who heard it, but it is true. Exactly!

Except for the minorities who got hired with <50 hours (this has been well documented on Flightinfo.com so it's true), United's only criteria for hiring pilots was to be arrogant, so these guys all get what they deserve. Our careers will better off when they are gone.

 

[Mugs]

That sounds a lot like the stuff ALPA puts out when they go around threatening unemployed pilots to not take certain jobs that go against ALPA's grain. Maybe it's time you guys took a hit in the name of saving the profession.

Since you want me to take this hit, I need to know exactly what I am taking the hit for. Would you care to share with the group WhiteCloud exactly what it is that your outfit, Independence Air, is doing to advance and save the profession? Since you felt the need to break in and comment, I assume you have an excellent dissertation on the subject. Let's hear it.

 

[Dodge]

They are doing no worse than United. Funny how noone remembers all the "guard" buddies telling their TWA brethren to "just go ahead and cut your losses. Just go under already so the rest of us can get on with our boat payments and divorce decrees."

 

[Mugs]

They are doing no worse than United. Funny how noone remembers all the "guard" buddies telling their TWA brethren to "just go ahead and cut your losses. Just go under already so the rest of us can get on with our boat payments and divorce decrees."

And I bet over TWA's long history, nobody at TWA would remember having a similar conversation with a pilot of a struggling TWA competitor. Is there a point to all of this?

 

[$$$4nothin]

Its nice to see there are still men out there with a set

FO Zogg,
If I ever have the opportunity to meet you, I will be honored to buy you a beer.

 

[Dodge]

Is there a point to all of this?

Yes. The point is that United is in serious trouble and all pilots and airline workers feel terrible about those families affected by United's gross negligence in running their company.

That being said, United is just another airline. People can shout the new buzzword of the 2000's "legacy carrier" all they want, but who really cares other than that legacy carrier's employees?

My friend at NWA is pretty po'd at the concessions that UAL pilots have given. NWA management says that they have to pay their employees just like UAL does so they can be competitive. He calls them the "Mesa pilot group of the majors".

Best of luck to all the United employees. Ya'll deserve way better than this.

 

[nitrogen]

Light coming on

What a great post this is. Talk about hitting the nail on the head.
Bravo UAL78.

I agree with you IndyGTP, you don't know what you're talking about. You don't think that they don't know that 6000 pilots feel the same way? As Tony Soprano likes to say, "whaddaya gonna do?"

He's not going to be left to hang out to dry. Check for testosterone poisoning. All that beating your chest is going to do is give you a sore chest. You think it's a simple solution to a complex problem. Oh, I guess it is- you'd just flip them off and burn the place to the ground.That'll make 60,000 of us feel about as good as Zogg felt when he hit the send button. That'll show 'em once and for all! Eastern tried that tactic a little bit. Remember them don't you?

But wait! I have an idea. Why don't we just stop going to work at UAL and sacrifice what jobs and earnings we have left? That way, we can let the rest of you have a better career. Let's just pack it in. Hey, why not? You'd do the same for me, right, my band of brothers?

I'll drop it in the suggestion box in ops.

 

[Boeingman]

Funny you should mention that, UAL. That's exactly what the UAL pilots in my friend's C-130 unit in COS suggested TWA do several years ago. To his face, they said "Why doesn't TWA do the right thing for the good of the industry and go out of business."

Maybe they understand now.TC

They did the same thing to us at CAL. UAL & USAir pilot were the most vocal about us falling on our swords "for the good of the industry".

Funny how the tune changes with the hardships of your own carrier.

 

[nitrogen]

Classic

Now here's a true management response. I hope you're not an actual pilot. Just how many kicks in the teeth would you take before you fight back?

Without presuming to speak out of turn, I would say that UAL78 (the person you've quoted), as an employee of the airline in question, and one of the airlines DIRECTLY affected by the hijackings of 9/11, is saying, that at a bare minimum, someone that P.O.'d has no business in the cockpit. They're just a bit too distracted to be operating Boeing brand heavy machinery.>>>>>

Pure psychobabble BS. Are you implying that this individual can't be mad enough to write this letter and STILL put his feelings aside enough to go to work? Isn't it just possible that he can be upset about this and have the guts to say what is on his mind but still be able to put that aside and do his job. Don't we have plenty of pilots going through divorces, personal issues, financial crises, etc and they still are able to function at the controls? Compartmentalization is one of the first things you learn in this profession.

>>>>I think if this letter really was transmitted to UAL management, then FO Zogg has made his own bed. You know, as the Verbal Advantage commercial says, "People judge you by the words you use." Implicit within that is that no one can judge you by the words you DON'T use. Mr. Zogg is finding out what others think of what he said. If he doesn't like it, perhaps he should have thought out the ramifications a little better BEFORE he hit the "send" button.

TIS

>>>>>>

Oh yeah. You're the kid that always did what he was told in class and was the first to tattle when one of the other kids misbehaved. "FO Zog made his own bed" You frigggin moron. They've wiped out his stock ESOP program, stolen his pension, forced 2 pay reductions on him, and now they seek to negate what's left of his already severely diminished contract. But for you thats no reason to speak out against the man. I mean he might get in trouble now. What a joke you are.

Tell me, what would it take to actually get YOU to fight back? Polite letters to the union or management are ignored. Complaints aren't even allowed. And frankly management couldn't care less about their employees at UAL. They have proved that so often now its beyond refute. Tell me what would it take. If they burned down your house? Stole your car? Kidnapped your kids? OR is there such a lack of spine in you that no offense would ever warrant you fighting for yourself? You're a management wet dream. The employee who NEVER fights back no matter what. Congratulations.

 

[Mugs]

Yes. The point is that United is in serious trouble and all pilots and airline workers feel terrible about those families affected by United's gross negligence in running their company.

That being said, United is just another airline. People can shout the new buzzword of the 2000's "legacy carrier" all they want, but who really cares other than that legacy carrier's employees?

My friend at NWA is pretty po'd at the concessions that UAL pilots have given. NWA management says that they have to pay their employees just like UAL does so they can be competitive. He calls them the "Mesa pilot group of the majors".

Best of luck to all the United employees. Ya'll deserve way better than this.

First of all, there is no sympathy here nor would I expect there to be. Obviously, most are keeping their fingers crossed for 6,000 more pilots on the street given the sorry financial state of the industry. Second of all, if your buddy at NWA thinks NWA will be able to return to business as usual for the long term after UAL goes away, he is in for another rude awakening down the road. Is your buddy also upset with you for the rates you have accepted to fly NWA customers around in a four engine jet? Or does he just avoid saying that to your face?

 

[100LL... Again!]

I remember a phrase I once heard, that went something like:

"It's all over but the crying."

This thread would be that crying that was referred to.
The game is over and we lost.

I think it would serve the profession better to admit where we screwed up and promise not to do it again, rather than whine about having our "pensions stolen" which they really were not.

Lost, yes, stolen, no.

Like social security, any thinking person can see that sooner or later bad times are coming, and there will be not enough money in the pot.

The failure of the pilot groups to use their negotiating capital to secure their pensions with something other than promises and wishful thinking is what is to blame.

Read up on a man named Ponzi, and you will see an astonishing parallel to what is happening here. Ponzi didn't start out being a crook - he really thought his scheme would work. After he got in too deep, he realized that there was no good way out, and those who trusted in something "too good to be true" got burned.

Which is exactly what is happening here.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The failure of the pilot groups to use their negotiating capital to secure their pensions with something other than promises and wishful thinking is what is to blame.

Huh? I don't know were to even begin.......

Freshman year in college?

 

[100LL... Again!]

Too much trust in the honesty and competence of management.

Why didn't pilot groups make purposely unfunding pensions a contract issue? Why wasn't there more direction in terms of determining how, when, and where the pension money was invested and held.

Ergo: the psnsions had a lot of wiggle room in them in terms of keeping them properly funded and provided for.

Same deal with social security: The "trust fund" has not existed for years. Congress voted to allow those funds to be spent however they wanted, and filled the trust fund with IOUs from the legislature.

And the public was okay with that.

By the way, it was the dems that led the charge to rraid social security, just so ya know.

 

[pilotyip]

And the Detroit Free Press reported today that NWA sees UAL as model of to to run an airline

 

[WhiteCloud]

Since you want me to take this hit, I need to know exactly what I am taking the hit for. Would you care to share with the group WhiteCloud exactly what it is that your outfit, Independence Air, is doing to advance and save the profession? Since you felt the need to break in and comment, I assume you have an excellent dissertation on the subject. Let's hear it.

Sure Mugs......Actually I don't think "taking a hit" for the profession is either realistic or advisable. It's a dog eat dog business and I find the ALPA releases, like the one I mentioned, irritating. Usually they talk about saving the quality of major airlines jobs so we can get them in the future. I'm not an I-Air flag waiver either....I just used to fly their airplanes around for a living. If most of us were honest around here we would say we are watching out for our own interests first and the "profession" second if at all. I believe UAL and ALPA are watching out for their own interests first and could care less about the profession as a whole if it hurts them. Silence from ALPA and UAL pilots when union express flying is replaced with non-union carriers. That's why press release, like the one I mentioned, tend to piss me off. Nothing personal....when UAL tanks, which I believe will happen, I'll be glad to walk your resume in to I-Air after they get done with recalls.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Too much trust in the honesty and competence of management.

Why didn't pilot groups make purposely unfunding pensions a contract issue? Why wasn't there more direction in terms of determining how, when, and where the pension money was invested and held.

Ergo: the psnsions had a lot of wiggle room in them in terms of keeping them properly funded and provided for.

Same deal with social security: The "trust fund" has not existed for years. Congress voted to allow those funds to be spent however they wanted, and filled the trust fund with IOUs from the legislature.

And the public was okay with that.

By the way, it was the dems that led the charge to rraid social security, just so ya know.

100LL,

Lot's of 'whys' in your post.

I bet I could look at your personal books and IRS1040 as you could with mine and ask alot of 'why's'. Not sure how pragmatic that is when the ball is still in play.

In addition, there has to be some level of trust, otherwise there are not shared goals. Mistrust is for the battlefield and enemies....

Although more than not it seems like the clowns in the board room are....

 

[100LL... Again!]

It would be nice to be able to trust. That is not the world we live in, however.

While it is small consolation, the future of pensions was never really there. Like Enron stock, a lot of the so-called value was nothing more than speculation and promises. You have to be crazy to think that the level of pension and compensation that was enjoyed a few years ago was going to go on forever.

Personally, I think that underfunding pensions should be a contract issue. What good is a contract unless you have the means to enforce it?

We are certainly finding that out right now, aren't we?

Give me 401K any day - at least management can't raid that to pay for other things.

As far as pensions go, it is over, and we lost. The sooner we accept that we failed to play the game to our advantage, the better.

The pay and compensation packages we are seeing now is probably going to be the new paradigm for years to come. If UAL can't make money at the current pay rates, it is unlikely that anyone will be able to justify paying much more than that.

And with the ever-increasing number of pilots willing to fly for less, it is unlikely that pilots as a group will ever have the supply-and-demand ball back in their court.

The best game that can be played now is defense - preventing further losses.
Gains in pilot compensation are probably years in the future.

Here's an intererseing speculative question - when do you think the next real raise will occur at a major airline other than SWA?

I give it at least five years. Or more.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Sure Mugs......Actually I don't think "taking a hit" for the profession is either realistic or advisable. It's a dog eat dog business and I find the ALPA releases, like the one I mentioned, irritating. Usually they talk about saving the quality of major airlines jobs so we can get them in the future. I'm not an I-Air flag waiver either....I just used to fly their airplanes around for a living. If most of us were honest around here we would say we are watching out for our own interests first and the "profession" second if at all. I believe UAL and ALPA are watching out for their own interests first and could care less about the profession as a whole if it hurts them. Silence from ALPA and UAL pilots when union express flying is replaced with non-union carriers. That's why press release, like the one I mentioned, tend to piss me off. Nothing personal....when UAL tanks, which I believe will happen, I'll be glad to walk your resume in to I-Air after they get done with recalls.

This is an excellent point - the overriding theme is that all of should sacrifice our current needs to protect mainline jobs that we could get "someday".

That someday doesn't go very far when one needs to pay the bills.

It's every man for himself, and the sooner we acknowledge that reality, the better off we are.