Unions, Airlines and Economics

[Publishers]

Tony -- you are right, I mispoke about the turnover, it should have been high with length low, please shoot me.

While it may seem like a contradiction to you, I believe that when you look at the big picture, SWA ends up much less impacted for a number of reasons, one is that it has not been around as long, probably outsources more, etc. Who knows-- maybe I am wrong but then again this is an internet board so who cares.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Pure speculation on my part, but SWA management and employees probably do a better job of treating each other with respect. There is not the "traditional" adversarial relationship between management and labor - either by design or accident. Another thing to consider is that SWA has always been the little guy vs. the big guy. That has worked in their favor. Well now they're a big guy. Time will tell if they can sustain that culture especially if their profit and/or margins decline. Hopefully, they will not have to experience it.

I don't picture FredS hanging out with TonyC any time soon !

 

[Publishers]

Some things become less problem just by their model. One type aircraft, shorter trips, no international. Their simpler approach means less problems and more equality leading to less conflict.

 

[U-I pilot]

Anyone read the book: "Free Fall; The needless destruction of eastern air lines and the valiant struggle to save it" by Jack E. Robinson?

Im in the process of reading it now....kind of interesting. So far the information presented points the finger at the Unions.

Im not choosing sides or attempting to be one sided about this stuff but just trying to get an idea of what goes on during bankruptcy. Everyone keeps talking about how history repeats itself....just want to get an idea of what could potentially happen.

Any thoughts?

 

[smellthejeta]

I think a couple of things...

WN has *a lot* of efficiencies in their system that other carriers don't, and has done a lot of things right up through now. Not all of their workers enjoy "the big bucks" like the pilots do. First year pay on the WN ramp is $8.25, or at least it was when I checked a year and a half ago. Next, because they don't employ the hub and spoke model, their station workers work rather continuously. Compare that to a traditional hub-and-spoke model at the network carriers: I probably actually "worked" no more than 4 hours of every 8 hour shift when I was at ACA. WN gets a heck of a lot more value out of their rampers than ACA ever did, no matter how you look at it. United rampers enjoyed the same types of schedules we did, heck, they even had ping pong tables in their break room.

Next, if WN ever has to furlough or gets rid of a particular aircraft model, what happens? The pilots now fly what... oh still the same old 737. When United was retiring the 727s and what not, that bumping and flushing created a lot of training events and a lot of expenses for them, not to mention the number of pilots who sat at home getting paid while they were waiting for their training slot.

Let's look at their fuel hedging... WN has even said if it wasn't for their great hedges that they wouldn't have made a profit in the recent quarters.

I also think that corporate and fractionals are taking the high-yield customer that the airlines have depended on for so long. Those high yield business customers that the airlines have used to subsidize the below-cost leisure traveller are gone... and now they can't figure out why they can't make money on the below-cost leisure traveller. It has been said in airline economics that passengers pick on price and they pick on schedule. Well, nothing gets better than picking your own schedule *and* picking your own airport as well.

U-I, as far as the book goes, who is the author? What's his background? Even "factual" books can be slanted.

 

[Publishers]

Hopefully without igniting a debate on Frank Lorenzo, let me say that Eastern was the result of two parties grossly misjudging the other and letting strong personalities take over the negotiation in a personal way, not a business way.

Smellthe is pointing out what I have been trying to. While pilot pay may be the most visible, it is just as much the other employees who are paid more and produce less in these huge unionized companies. The legacies used to want to have their own baggage people, their own catering people, etc etc etc and they all tended to be paid in the context of the heavily union employees. The ramp people are but one example.

 

[enigma]

Hopefully without igniting a debate on Frank Lorenzo, let me say that Eastern was the result of two parties grossly misjudging the other and letting strong personalities take over the negotiation in a personal way, not a business way.

Lorenzo was just the vulture trying to pick at bones. Eastern was dead when he acquired it. For that, we can thank Borman and (if memory serves) Charlie Bryan the head of the Mechanics union.

enigma

PS, this in no way, should be taken to give any level of respect or credibility to Lorenzo. He was at best, a thief.

 

[Publishers]

Strangely, Enigma and I agree on this completely.

Charles Bryan's ego demanded he prove how powerful he was. While he won, he lost the golden goose. Eastern, if I remember right, had some of the highest cost of maintenance of any major airline.

United may be on this same course as we speak.

 

[soarby007]

unions

Name one industry that has thrived under a union? Umm, let me think.

garment industry, auto industry, steel, mines, agriculture, aircraft manufacturing, AIRLINES?

Unions were great under Samuel Gompers and child labor. But where have all the other industries gone? Overseas.

Unions are nothing but a political, corrupt machine that eventually seeks to serve themselves.

 

[Publishers]

Garment -- Hong Kong and China
Cars Japan German
Steel Mines --Gone somewhere
mines --south africa south america
etc etc