Unions, Airlines and Economics

[100LL... Again!]

How come socialist nations have powerful unions too? England had very powerful unions, although I do not know their recent state.

France has quite a few as well. I think they have a very srong nation pilot's union.

Abuse of the worker is not unique to any economic system. It is human nature.

 

[Crossky]

You are correct, unions are the biggest factor in PFT. In a true free marketindustry as it relates to pilots, PFT would not exist. This is the simple factthat those airlines that support them such as MESAwould be unable to find employees able to work at those low wage levels norpay for their training if the other half of the industries jobs fell tocompetitive levels. The supply of pilots as well as the demand for theirservices would reach equilibrium at all experience levels. You can look tocountless other professional industries without unions and you don't see thisproblem. Again, advantage goes to union employees at the expense of others whoare non-union within the same field. My previous post provided an examplerelating to how companies hire based on wages, if you can find an economiccounterpoint to it please post.

This is the biggest pile of crap I've EVER seen on flightinfo. How can you say that union employees have the advantage when right now there are non-union carriers (LCC's and regionals) left and right where the pilots make as much or more and have similar or better benefits than as at union carriers. Just compare the difference between MESA (ALPA Union) and SKYWEST (non-union). Or between American (APA Union) and Southwest (non-union). airlinepilotpay.com is one site we're all been to except you apparently.

Unions do have less influence over airlines these days than they used to. The reasons are that (1) non-union carrier's pay and benefits are good enough to be competitive with union carriers and that the lower operating costs of LCC's (which tend to be more non-union, except for SWA) make them more profitable and thus provide more job security and attraction to potential employees than traditional unionized carriers. THAT, my friend is free market economics in action during the Dubya era.

 

[smellthejeta]

Sorry Smelly but be that true or untrue, the fact remains the unionswanted it, got it and are now the owners. They are also the"management" you speak of. You keep trying to differentiate"management's" decisions from the unions, however in UAL case they areone in the same. The union was the major shareholder and had the mostvotes on the board and they agreed to whatever stipulations the ESOPspelled out, heck they designed it. Trying to rationalize blamesomewhere other than the union in this case is wrong. For all intensivepurposes the union and employees owned thier own airline.

Stock worth nothing now, so what do the employees own? Worthless stock. You could argue that is what the employees owned before the stock hit the crapper, because if you can't get money for it, it's not worth anything. So maybe, in this capitalistic society, the value of the airline is now worth the value of the stock the employees held?

Read the history of the ESOP program. It came about because management wanted concessions from the labor groups, and the labor groups told management that if they wanted paycuts *again* they'd have to answer for it. No matter who owns controlling shares of stock, the president is still the president and the CEO is still the CEO. Look at FlyI... the owners of the stock want the company to do a certain thing, but they can't really force them to do it.

As other people have said, your economic theory is all fine and good, but there is a reason analysts hire industry employees to work for them. It takes a lot of sweat and labor to understand the ins and outs of this business. You can point fingers at the unions all you want, but if management was so great, the unions never would have existed. Unions are always a byproduct of crappy management. I speak as a former employee of an airline labor group who had a failed union drive. You speak, I assume, with 10 hours of flight simulator? How much do you pay your flight instructor, anyway? Is it enough for him to make a living? Ask any consulting business... If you want to have your customers happy, keep your labor happy. You can't piss off your labor groups and reasonably expect them to smile at the customer and tell them how great of a day they're having.

 

[RW/FW Ex-Army W]

Stock worth nothing now, so what do the employees own? Worthless stock. You could argue that is what the employees owned before the stock hit the crapper, because if you can't get money for it, it's not worth anything. So maybe, in this capitalistic society, the value of the airline is now worth the value of the stock the employees held?

Read the history of the ESOP program. It came about because management wanted concessions from the labor groups, and the labor groups told management that if they wanted paycuts *again* they'd have to answer for it. No matter who owns controlling shares of stock, the president is still the president and the CEO is still the CEO. Look at FlyI... the owners of the stock want the company to do a certain thing, but they can't really force them to do it.



As other people have said, your economic theory is all fine and good, but there is a reason analysts hire industry employees to work for them. It takes a lot of sweat and labor to understand the ins and outs of this business. You can point fingers at the unions all you want, but if management was so great, the unions never would have existed. Unions are always a byproduct of crappy management. I speak as a former employee of an airline labor group who had a failed union drive. You speak, I assume, with 10 hours of flight simulator? How much do you pay your flight instructor, anyway? Is it enough for him to make a living? Ask any consulting business... If you want to have your customers happy, keep your labor happy. You can't piss off your labor groups and reasonably expect them to smile at the customer and tell them how great of a day they're having.

You appear to be quite knowledgeable about and a supporter of unionized labor. So perhaps you could answer a quick question or two.


Does ALPA/APA/AFLCIO and such have paid employees? Or is it all volunteer labor? Oops - disregard that question as I am sure an organization founded to ensure the rights of working men and women would never accept free labor. As an example, I have seen ALPA's web site and it is impressive. I'll bet ALPA would never use a scab developer for that piece of art, or god forbid - OUTSOURCE it to a non-union or foreign firm!!


As such, I am certain each of these organizations have employees represented by great unions of their own. Would you know which union would represent, say the clerical workers of ALPA? Could one take a look at the rates of pay and benefits ALPA provides to those workers? I am certain it would be "industry leading". And as a union man I am certain you will pay whatever dues required to make sure these workers receive the highest level of pay, health insurance and vacation time possible. After all, you wouldn't want management to be sticking it to them - right?

So, does anyone here know the status of the labor that does the work for labor unions?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Does ALPA/APA/AFLCIO and such have paid employees? Or is it all volunteer labor?

I am certain each of these organizations have employees represented by great unions of their own.

Most people who do the work in unions are volunteers on the local level, pilots helping other pilots with safety, professional standards, hotel standards, scheduling and contract administration. The status representatives elected by the local pilots and Master Executive Counsel members are also volunteers.

When called on to perform ALPA work that takes these pilots away from flying they get "trip drops." The union reimburses the pilot what they would have made, if they had been flying. In some airlines, there is so much union business that one or two local people may be on full time ALPA leave and are paid as if they were pilots flying a schedule. However, for every person on ALPA leave, there are probably 80 to 100 various volunteers helping other members to make the airline a better place.

On the national level, most of these people are professional union managers and administrators. These include attorneys which serve the local membership. Some get trip drops, if they are pilots, and others are salaried positions. The payments to these people are public record and you can probably find them through a google search. The President of ALPA, Duane Woerth is a Northwest Airlines 747 Captain and I think his salary through trip drops was $437,000.

ALPA National's employees are members of a union and even the unions sometimes have union troubles. It seems I remember something in Flying the Line I on the subject. I imagine these employees are AFL-CIO affiliated. The union contracts with other unionized businesses whenever possible. Best to practice what you preach....

Overall, the union is a good deal for what it costs. Much of the union's benefit are the legion of volunteers who help other employees and the Company. For instance an unsafe Hotel situation is often dealt with by union volunteers. Making sense of a muddled CVR recording is most commonly done by ALPA safety volunteers with the various engineering representatives from the manufacturers. These are just a few examples of the mutual benefits that the Company and ALPA members enjoy.

 

[RW/FW Ex-Army W]

Most people who do the work in unions are volunteers on the local level, pilots helping other pilots with safety, professional standards, hotel standards, scheduling and contract administration. The status representatives elected by the local pilots and Master Executive Counsel members are also volunteers.

On the national level, most of these people are professional union managers and administrators. These include attorneys which serve the local membership. Some get trip drops, if they are pilots, and others are salaried positions. The payments to these people are public record and you can probably find them through a google search. The President of ALPA, Duane Woerth is a Northwest Airlines 747 Captain and I think his salary through trip drops was $437,000.

ALPA National's employees are members of a union and even the unions sometimes have union troubles. It seems I remember something in Flying the Line I on the subject. I imagine these employees are AFL-CIO affiliated. The union contracts with other unionized businesses whenever possible. Best to practice what you preach....

Overall, the union is a good deal for what it costs. Much of the union's benefit are the legion of volunteers who help other employees and the Company. For instance an unsafe Hotel situation is often dealt with by union volunteers. Making sense of a muddled CVR recording is most commonly done by ALPA safety volunteers with the various engineering representatives from the manufacturers. These are just a few examples of the mutual benefits that the Company and ALPA members enjoy.

Thank you for the info. I haven't seen a cost benefit ratio that I could call a "good deal" but that is of course subjective. As for the professional union managers, you mean guys like the late (and current) Mr. Hoffa? I would assume they are well compensated as they are the equivilent of a corporation's management; no? I was talking about the "line" folks and I think you explained that they are represented.

Curious about the "The union contracts with other unionized businesses whenever possible." Leaves a lot of wiggle room. Be interesting to see how many dues dollars go out to non-union (scab) operations. My business experience shows that there are few service providers (web developers for instance) that are union. But I guess if it is OK for ALPA to use non-union services, ALPA members would have no problem with UAL for example contracting out a few operations to non-union shops. May already happen.

400K for the big guy? Don't think many ALPA guys can complain about executive salaries. And by the way, I have never had a problem with a union in concept. But as long as they are willing to destroy the property of others for personal gain and operate through fear and intimidation, I will consider them to be what they are - professional extortionists.


JMHO and by the way I am aware from more than a few hours flying with ALPA guys that MHO doesn't really matter.

 

[smellthejeta]

You appear to be quite knowledgeable about and a supporter of unionized labor. So perhaps you could answer a quick question or two.

I am a supporter of the lay worker, because I am that lay worker. If that means I'm a supporter of the union, so be it, but I am not an adamant diehard supporter of unions. In other words, my opinion on SkyWest is that if they can get along without a union, so be it. I am not going to sit there and try to coerce them to become part of a union, because I believe union membership is up to the individual labor group. I have never been a member of a union nor have had family members who have been union members. However, I have been part of an airline labor group that has held a failed union drive. I have never worked as a commercial pilot and no longer have any intention of doing so, although I do have flight time. I still work as a grunt in aviation, and will become a part of a union when I get what I hope is my next job after I graduate.

My knowledge of aviation comes through mostly sweat and some academics, but not much. I got my PPL in early '00, and have earned a living in various facets of aviation since then. Early on, it was white collar work, since '02, I have been a fulltime blue collar employee. The largest seniority list that I have been on had 160 full time employees and probably 100 part time employees. The smallest seniority list I've been on at a full-time job is probably around 20. Does that make me an expert? No. But when it comes to labor management and airline economics, I sincerely believe that 1) There is only so much you can learn from books and flight simulator 2) and the more I work in aviation, the more I learn I don't know. It's amazing what people who fly 100,000 miles a year think they know about everything that is wrong with aviation.

In short, I support a worker's right to organize, and I have my opinions of ALPA, especially in the way the regionals have been treated.

As such, I am certain each of these organizations have employees represented by great unions of their own. Would you know which union would represent, say the clerical workers of ALPA? Could one take a look at the rates of pay and benefits ALPA provides to those workers? I am certain it would be "industry leading". And as a union man I am certain you will pay whatever dues required to make sure these workers receive the highest level of pay, health insurance and vacation time possible. After all, you wouldn't want management to be sticking it to them - right?

So, does anyone here know the status of the labor that does the work for labor unions?

I actually looked at white collar positions at ALPA National, and may actually apply for them in the future. Given the positions that I was looking at, I would presume that they are non-union. Reference my earlier comment, I am not a union diehard, and as such, cannot critque the ins and outs of how a union prefoms its own internal business, because I lack the knowledge to do so, nor do I really care. I believe that every company and labor group functions in a capitalistic society, and that any organization should do what makes the most fiscal sense for them (I realize that is a broad statement, and read into it whatever you want, because I probably meant it). I don't buy products simply because they're union made, and I don't choose employment based on which union represents me. If a union is representing employees, I believe that they should be giving them fair and proper representation. I do, however, have plenty of opinions about Bush's comments about job offshoring and other tactics that are being used to slowly deteriorate the American way of life.

I have worked in multiple non-union labor groups who provide services for multiple union-represented labor groups.

Again, I support a worker's right to organize if he deems necessary, but aside from that, a union plays no affect on how I conduct my personal business. I have my opinions on how certain unions conduct contract negotiations and sometimes they do cross the line, but that has no affect on my belief that a worker should have the right to organize.

 

[:-)]

And by the way, I have never had a problem with a union in concept. But as long as they are willing to destroy the property of others for personal gain and operate through fear and intimidation, I will consider them to be what they are - professional extortionists.

I'll bet you were a W5.

That's quite an blanket accusation you throw out there pal. Are you insinuating that ALPA (that is who were are talking about here on this Aviation website after all) is destroying the property of others? Are you claiming that ALPA operates through fear and intimidation?

If you have first hand knowledge of the destruction of property, and/or knowledge of fear and intimidation, I want to know if you reported these illegal acts to the proper authorities? Well, did ya.

And some wonder why rotor heads are not look at as real pilots!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Calvin

 

[:-)]

JMHO and by the way I am aware from more than a few hours flying with ALPA guys that MHO doesn't really matter.

If you've flown with ALPA pilots, that most likely means that you are also an ALPA pilot. What committee did you volunteer for? What elected position did you hold? How many LEC meetings did you attend? ALPA National has its flaws; but at the local level ALPA is just pilots trying to help each other out. Most of us volunteer and go out of our way to help each other. It sounds to me that you don't want mutual aid, It sounds to me that you want the ability to find a way to shortcut the system and rise to the level that you THINK you deserve. Fair enough, join management. You already have the proper anti-pilot attitude.

Good Day,
Calvin

 

[~~~^~~~]

And by the way, I have never had a problem with a union in concept. But as long as they are willing to destroy the property of others for personal gain and operate through fear and intimidation, I will consider them to be what they are - professional extortionists.

Are you nuts? What do you mean destroy the property of others? Who are you accusing of committing a felony?

No one has more invested in an airline than its employees. Lousy managers leave to seek other opportunities, while lousy pilots are fired and their records follow them around via PRIA reports. A pilots' position and pay are determined by seniority, which is lost if the airline fails. No one is more attached to an airline than its pilots. No one has more responsibility to protect life and property than the pilots - the Captain has the ultimate responsibility and the Captain's Certification is on the line if they fail.

And in case you failed to notice, it was the pilots that took pay cuts to save United while Tilton was taking $200,000,000.00 a year from the till and spending many more hundreds of millions on his management consultant buddies at McKenzie and Co. Delta pilots just gave up 34% of their pay and much more than that in benefits. Pilots at US Air and United just gave up most of their retirement plans for crying out loud. What do you mean they are destroying property? How about Leo Mullins gold plated exit packages for he and his cronies? Is theft OK just because the thief wears a suit instead of a uniform?

Again, I am a supporter of an effort to sue ALPA and known for my efforts, but I have never been intimidated by ALPA and in fact have recieved help from the union when the Company refused to provide my crew hotel rooms ( because it was inconvenient for the Company and they figured we could sleep on the airplane when the temp was less than 24 degrees. ) Wait until you spend a couple of nights in airplanes, followed by a few legs of flying in bad weather. When you have lived these experiences ( and hopefully have not crashed ) you remind me how useless unions are.

 

[:-)]

Hey Fins, don't let this dude get your dandruff up. He's just another rotorhead who's pissed that his countless hours of multi-turbine time didn't put him straight into the left seat of a 777.

He'll eventually turn around, or go to the dark side. I'm sure that his anti-union face will go away the first time that he busts a check and is begging for help in his attempt to keep his job.

And, the sad thing is: We'll help him. Even though he looks down on us, We'll still help him/her.

Calvin

 

[~~~^~~~]

Curious about the "The union contracts with other unionized businesses whenever possible." Leaves a lot of wiggle room. Be interesting to see how many dues dollars go out to non-union (scab) operations.

Well, I've never seen ALPA buy any good, or service, from a non union supplier. There probably is an exception somewhere, but I've not seen it.

A non union shop is not a "scab" operation. The term "scab" describes a person who crosses a picket line during a strike. There are very few scabs anywhere simply because when the strike is settled there is no longer any need for their services as the incumbant employees return to their jobs.

Also, a strike is a very rare occurrence these days and most companies do not hire replacement scabs. When a strike happens, the Company finds it cheaper to shut down rather than operate at a tremendous loss.

A little recognized fact of the Comair strike at Delta was that Comair management actually locked out the Comair pilots when the Comair pilots were given the right to strike. Rather than risk a disruption of the airline's operation by having airplanes stranded at outstations when the union might have called a strike, the airline simply locked the employees out and shut down.

Basically unions and their activities are not as "sexy" as you make them out to be. It is a bureaucracy that serves employee needs. Once every few years they negotiate a contract which is an endurance contest that lasts forever and is a lot of hard work. Your fantasys of Jimmy Hoffa just are not the real world and have not been around in at least the 15 years that I've been around the business.

~~~^~~~

 

[~~~^~~~]

And, the sad thing is: We'll help him. Even though he looks down on us, We'll still help him/her.

Calvin

True, true....

 

[RW/FW Ex-Army W]

True, true....

Sorry, not an ALPA pilot although I do sleep with one. And after 8 years of flying fixed wings, I really have no interest in the left seat of anything except the aircraft I own and fly for personal transportation. And I take a lot of pride in having been a rotorhead and a soldier. Maybe a little jealous of the fighter jocks, and transport jocks - hell I've always been jealous of anything AF. I'll fess up.

Now I would assume everyone could see what I meant by the destruction of property. A corporation (publically held and traded, even closley held) is the property of the shareholders. When a union strikes and prevents the owners of that corporation from replacing whatever commodity it is the union provides (in most cases labor), then damage to the sahreholder's property is done. If the damage is severe enough to result in liquidation, then that property has been destroyed. Now, has that ever happened, even in the airline industry? Is not the intent of a strike to cause sufficient damage as to extract the demands of the union? A lot of shareholders (employees included) see that pretty clearly. But hey, no strike, no hassling replacement employees if there are some and I have no problem.

Look, I in no way look down on pilots. Hell, I am one. Did it for 24 years military, at least 10 years civil and still fly frequently. My wife lives the life of a 121 pilot and by all means I would describe her life as difficult and challenging and worth a lot more than she is paid - at least to me but apparently not to the market. Or her, she still does it. But I firmly believe that if you don't like it, stay and make it better or leave and start something better. Just don't take it upon yourself to decide what a job may or may not be worth to the next guy.

"Wait until you spend a couple of nights in airplanes, followed by a few legs of flying in bad weather. When you have lived these experiences ( and hopefully have not crashed ) you remind me how useless unions are."

Actually, like most military aviators, I have spent far more than a couple of nights in an airplane (or in a ditch or in a sandstorm) followed by more than a few legs in bad weather. I can appreciate how it is difficult and if it is outside of what you find acceptable, you should find more suitable employment.

 

[smellthejeta]

Be interesting to see how many dues dollars go out to non-union (scab) operations. My business experience shows that there are few service providers (web developers for instance) that are union. But I guess if it is OK for ALPA to use non-union services, ALPA members would have no problem with UAL for example contracting out a few operations to non-union shops. May already happen.

Oh, I forgot to jump all over this one. UAL contracts (and contracted ) out for non-union services. SkyWest flying and Atlantic Coast (back in the day) ramp services off the top of my head. Was I scab for working for a non-union operation providing services to a heavily unionized company? It ain't my fault that UAL puts its regional contractors in bidding wars.

My current employer, a non-union shop, derives a lot of our business from a union-represented pilot group (I believe Teamsters?). Am I a scab for working for a non-union shop? I resent the implication that I am.

What makes me a scab? I have never crossed a picket line. I have never provided services to a company while union members of said company were on strike. The fact that I have chosen to work in non-union shops is not unethical, nor does it make it harder for anybody to bargain with their employer, and is my choice, and mine alone.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Actually, like most military aviators, I have spent far more than a couple of nights in an airplane (or in a ditch or in a sandstorm) followed by more than a few legs in bad weather. I can appreciate how it is difficult and if it is outside of what you find acceptable, you should find more suitable employment.

Yes, but my airline is not at war and our job is not killing people and blowing stuff up. There is no comparison to military operations - if I were hired at Airtran, Delta could not court marshall me.

Our union at ASA has made the quality of life here tolerable. Rather than leave, take my $50,000 in training with me and ground an airplane ( because we are short on Captains right now and I can not be easily replaced ) I would rather use the formal negotiation process afforded me under US law to improve things and I'm not really talking about money. I'm talking about adequate rest, time to spend with my family and trip construction rules so that when I am away from home I actually get to fly and be productive. ( The airline is terrible about three days trips with less than 2.5 hours of flying when the screw schedulers get lazy. Most of us like around 6 hours a day to make some money for us and the airline )

Labor and management really is a partnership and the value of a company IS its employees. The union provides a mechanism for this partnership to work, without having to resort to quitting.

And how can you say that what Tilton did at United is not "destroying property" by your definition? How is Leo Mullins walking out the door with nearly 50 million not "destroying property?" I don't think a pilot earning an hourly wage that the Company has agreed to is wrong.

JMHO

~~~^~~~

 

[:-)]

Now I would assume everyone could see what I meant by the destruction of property. A corporation (publically held and traded, even closley held) is the property of the shareholders. When a union strikes and prevents the owners of that corporation from replacing whatever commodity it is the union provides (in most cases labor), then damage to the sahreholder's property is done. If the damage is severe enough to result in liquidation, then that property has been destroyed. Now, has that ever happened, even in the airline industry?

You're conveniently forgeting the billions of dollars of shareholder value damaged by the incorrect, poor decisions of thier management teams. Unions have no desire to devalue their boss. As fins points out, our lives are more closely linked to our employer than are the lives of the top managers. They get golden parachutes, and get paid handsomely even when their decisions are bad. It is not in our interest to devalue our companys value, Witness the actions of AAA/DAL/UAL ALPA as of late. Those workers have single handedly saved the companys where they work. Hmmmmm, that doesn't sound like property destruction to me.

Is not the intent of a strike to cause sufficient damage as to extract the demands of the union?

NO, the intent of a strike (again, we are on an aviation website that populated mainly by pilots) is to force the company to live by the contracts to which they had previously agree. Pilots strike only when the pay is no longer adequate to compensate for the conditions under which we work. I think that you'll find that every pilot strike in the last two decades only happened after years of management stalling and years of broken contractual agreements on managements part. People like you want to blame pilots, why I don't know, but you do. Those of us in the business understand that a strike could easily cost us our career. No pilot that I'm aware of, and I've been around longer than I care to admit, is walking around just dying to go out on strike. I've got EAL friends who can attest to the career changing effects of a strike.

I can appreciate how it is difficult and if it is outside of what you find acceptable, you should find more suitable employment.

You claim to only desire to fly your personal aircraft, why do you care where a professional pilot works? What you seem to misunderstand is that we work in a system that is LEGAL. The system is controlled by the laws of the United States. We are not a bunch of outlaws attempting to extort money for poor businessmen. Both sides have equal power in the negotiation process and any contract is agreed to by both parties. We IMPOSE NOTHING. Why do you assume that we should just leave if we don't like our job? We have the LEGAL ability to attempt to have some input into our lives and don't see any sin in doing so.

Do you visit management sites and berate them for agreeing to poor contracts?
Inquiring minds want to know.


Why am I wasting my time I ask myself, you can have the last word.

 

[Publishers]

Simply put, name any airline today that could withstand a 3 week strike.

 

[TonyC]

What they [unions] do is bog down the entity in rules, regulations, and costs that someone else may not have which enables them to kick your ass like Southwest has done.

I'm scratchin' my head here. Either you're contradicting yourself (Southwest is unionized, remember?) or I'm missing something.

Unions encumber airlines to the point that airlines with unions can kick their... huh?

Simply put, name any airline today that could withstand a 3 week strike.

Simply put, what's your point?


Fred Smith said he could. Said he could hire replacement pilots, and turn the company into a trucking company if he wanted to, too. Some (gullible) people even believed him.

Unions don't exist to strike. Unions exist to represent labor. Withholding services (striking) just happens to be one of the least pleasant tools the union might be able to employ if management persists in failing to bargain in good faith.

Nobody wants to strike, but they have to believe you will should it become necessary.

Nobody wants to throw nukes, but they had to believe we would should it become necessary.

If the company can't afford a strike, they shouldn't force that card.

 

[Publishers]

Southwest had one big advantage, they started later and I do not believe that their flight attendants have a union contract today.

As Gordon Bethune said, if he could have fired everyone and started again every 5 years, it would have been easier.

I say again, the legacy carriers are burdened with rules, regulations, and costs that Southwest, Air Tran, and Jetblue do not have.

Let's not equate FEDEX with legacy carriers when I do not even think we should call these package people airlines.