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Union Thoughts

DO-82 driver

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WE NJA pilots have been in charge of our own destiny with the guidance of some great leaders. We, once again, will make aviation history by moving forward ahead of everyone else.

It is now time for others in this industry to take charge for what is best for their group of pilots.

The management teams will no longer have the threat of their pilots unionizing because of us pesky NJA, union fanatics. They will no longer feel compelled to improve their employees QOL so as to keep them from voting on a union organization.

Things are going to change for the better here at NJA..... I hope the industry doesn't regress as a result of our departing pressences.

Its time for others to stand up and lead.
 

Bronco Buster

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This seems like a normal progression with new pilot unions outside of the big passenger carriers. The UPS pilots started out as Teamsters before they split off and formed their own union. The key point for working bees is to have as many folks as possible in unions, and then making sure that you have it in your contract that you cannot be compelled to cross a picket line.
 

Abbey

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Picket Lines and Teamsters. Laughable. NWA slowed down for about 24 hours when the mechanics were on strike. NWA management had more than enough scab mechanics lined up willing to work. Many of which had Teamsters backgrounds. NWA pilots also said that the strike was not in their best interests. That would be the NWA pilots best interests. It would appear that the Teamsters have no real bite.

That being said, NJA pilots honored the strike of our Teamster brothers and sisters at NWA. Who else did?
 

CA1900

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That being said, NJA pilots honored the strike of our Teamster brothers and sisters at NWA.
And we'll do the same even if we're not Teamsters. We've included in our contract a provision that we won't be required to cross a primary picket line, including at our own place of business. That won't change if we drop the IBT.
 

superfly

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It's simple math

The money we will save can be huge (14 million) over the contract for not being a Teamster.

Anyone working for CS, or Flex has seen QOL improvements because of the union.

btw, for $9,000/mo we can be afilliated with the AFL/CIO. Beats the hell out of $100,000/mo!
 

NJAPLT

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As an upcoming voter, I have to ask these questions:

1. Do we receive $100,000 a month value for the $100,000 we send to the IBT each month?

My current understanding (just as a union pilot, I hold no office position in the IBT) is that the National teamsters have never contributed much monitary support or legal service to the local 1108. A good example of this was the court fight involving a pilot who was let go by the company after producing a video the company didn't like, the national teamsters contributed nothing toward the fight. Information I have read indicates at most during a strike in the future the national will be willing to loan us $100,000 (or about one months national dues.....)

2. Does the national teamsters in any way undermine the interest in the local 1108 members?

My understanding is that although they have not publically supported private jet user fees, they have unofficially supported them. If this is true, this is a severe problem for me, I want my union at all levels to support the collective interests of fractional pilots, not the interests of airlines. As the largest fractional union association, we should have a seat at the table for the 135 FAR rewriting, but I do not believe we do, as they care more for the local 747's interests, rather than ours.

I have heard that ALPA has a history of supporting the national carriers unions vs the regional carriers when their interests were in conflict. I can see the same situation with the local 1108 vs the local 747 (which I was a member for several years.)

My understanding is that the national IBT organization could also decide to have the local 1108 merge with the local 747 without a vote by the 1108 members. If this is true, I am very worried about the future. When I was in the local 747, i was very, very disappointed with the support and service us pilots at GLA was given by the local, they were absentee landlords in my view, caring way more for the larger flight attendents and mechanics at other companies the 747 was associated with.

3. Do I think a new, unproven local will be able to provide the same level of union protection that we local 1108 pilots enjoy right now?

Well, since this is a new organization I can't look at their record, but I can look at the people who have started and joined the organization. It looks like to me, that most of the personnel that manned the 1108 have now resigned and are now associated with the NJASAP. I think that although the NJASAP is new, the personnel should be able to handle the job just fine, as all they will need to do is print up some new business cards and continue business as usual.

4. Some issues and legislation require the support of our whole industry, not just one particular companies pilots. How would this NJA only organization be able to interface with other pilots and our common interests?

Well, reading the www.NJASAP.com website, they mention starting a global trade association, but that it is more in the distant future. This bothers me some, as the entire collective fractional pilots, no matter which company they work for or which union if any they belong to, needs a voice that addresses our common interests before congress and other legistative bodies. I see many common interests with other aviation stakeholders, and would prefer a pledge to establish one soon after, rather than a vague promise to make one "in the future."


Overall, I am looking forward of the debate between the current 1108 and the NJASAP. I am currently leaning more to the NJASAP than staying with the local 1108, but I do with to hear more from the 1108 before deciding. I have my intent card ready to drop in the mail tomorrow, and have send my first monthly payment into the NJASAP, and will continue to support both the IBT and NJASAP until I decide for sure which union I think will best represent my interests as a NetJets pilot.
 

netjetwife

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As an upcoming voter, I have to ask these questions:

1. Do we receive $100,000 a month value for the $100,000 we send to the IBT each month?

Not even close! As many pilots point out that's a very expensive magazine that rarely (like IBT leadership) pays attention to pilots. Not a word of support, or even recognition, for IBB advances.

...National teamsters have never contributed much monitary support or legal service to the local 1108. Zilch is closer to reality. 1108 was founded by NJA pilot-leaders (with donations --not dues-- from NJA pilots) to help the pilotgroup because the IBT didn't understand, and wasn't interested in, pilot issues. The mixed craft local the NJ pilots were previously in (284) was more a hindrance than a help for that reason.

2. Does the national teamsters in any way undermine the interest in the local 1108 members? Yes. Representing various types of aviation workers does cause a conflict of interests.

... I want my union at all levels to support the collective interests of fractional pilots, not the interests of airlines. Frac pilots are a minority in the IBT. NJA pilots do a much better job representing themselves; they have the motivation and the talent. ...

I have heard that ALPA has a history of supporting the national carriers unions vs the regional carriers when their interests were in conflict. I can see the same situation with the local 1108 vs the local 747 (which I was a member for several years.) I've heard pilots in the know are quite concerned about that.

My understanding is that the national IBT organization could also decide to have the local 1108 (financially strong) merge with the local 747 (and their serious money problems) without a vote by the 1108 members. If this is true, It is. Apparently, IBT would rather spend NJA pilot money, use your infrastructure, etc to fix the 747 mess rather than National dealing with it as they should. I am very worried about the future. The NJA pilots are led by sharp, proactive, visionary leaders/peers looking out for the group. NJASAP saw the writing on the wall and is taking action to preserve the independent spirit that launched StrongUnion. When I was in the local 747, i was very, very disappointed ... This is the reason that it's important to stand alone and to use all of the NJA pilot dues to support their own pilots and advocate for improvements in the frac industry.

3. Do I think a new, unproven local :confused: This is no different from your favorite restaurant changing their name. Same food, same staff, with more money to expand the menu and remodel as the owners see fit based on the desires of their customers. will be able to provide the same level of union protection that we local 1108 pilots enjoy right now? It will be better. 100% of the dues would be spent on the NJA pilots: sufficient staff and technology to help w/contract compliance; money to advance frac interests in aviation-political issues that could impact job security; and money to pull our weight in joint committee projects with the Company, thus maintaing the good working relationship that SU has established over the last 2 plus years. Reaching out to others can strength our own position but it takes time to attend meetings and money to send people there. The investment pays for itself many times over as we saw in IBB.

Well, since this is a new organization I can't look at their record, but I can look at the people who have started and joined the organization. Same thing. StrongUnion leaders/volunteers backed by a determined pilot group are continuing the record of accomplishment you refer to. It looks like to me, that most of the personnel that manned the 1108 have now resigned and are now associated with the NJASAP. Yes, and those left behind to keep the Union running smoothly have said not to place any meaning on that other than their desire to help the pilots. Very careful planning went into this latest SU project. I think that although the NJASAP is new, the personnel should be able to handle the job just fine, I couldn't agree more! I've been typing as I go and you had me a little worried for a minute there...;) as all they will need to do is print up some new business cards (bag tags coming soon to a mailbox near you) and continue business as usual. Exactly! :p I'm glad to hear you say so.

4. Some issues and legislation require the support of our whole industry, not just one particular companies pilots. How would this NJA only organization be able to interface with other pilots and our common interests? This time I'm reading ahead to see your comments first...;)

Well, reading the www.NJASAP.com website, they mention starting a global trade association, Yes, I think the NJA counterparts in NJE have expressed interest in a Union, for starters. but that it is more in the distant future. I think the final networking organization will take time to establish, but NJASAP also plans on an Industry liaison position for offering advice and making contacts right away. This bothers me some, ...would prefer a pledge to establish one soon after, rather than a vague promise to make one "in the future." I think the pilot that is elected to be the Vice President of Industry Affairs will share your outlook. For a description of that officer's duties see p. 20 of the Bylaws posted on NJASAP's website. I can easily see (personal observation here) BW or AV in this role as it includes the kind of reaching out they've already been doing. Having total control over all of the dues will allow NJA pilots to be even more involved in industry affairs/common causes. They will be able to attend conferences in their own right without having to go thru the IBT first only to learn that National isn't interested in the same issues that NJA pilots deem important.

Overall, I am looking forward of the debate between the current 1108 (If you mean the leadership, I'm sure you'll find that they are leaving the decision to the pilotgroup). and the NJASAP. I am currently leaning more to the NJASAP than staying with the local 1108, (It sounds as though most NJ pilots are also ready to go solo now) but I do with to hear more from the 1108 before deciding. With the idea that actions speak louder than words, it seems apparent that the recent resignations from their leadership positions are telling us that StrongUnion leaders are focused on the self-determination goals they have had from their beginning. Your fellow NJ pilots are the Union/ "the 1108" and their comments have been invited on the NJASAP board and the 1108 board. I have my intent card ready to drop in the mail tomorrow, and have send my first monthly payment into the NJASAP, and will continue to support both the IBT and NJASAP until I decide for sure which union I think will best represent my interests as a NetJets pilot. While I'll fully believe in doing one's research and making an informed decision, I'm confident that that the NJA pilots will continue on the path and following the leaders who have brought them to the industry-leading position they now hold.
It's critical that every NJA pilot sends in the card that will allow the vote to go forward. So thanks for doing that and for making a donation (not to be confused w/dues) to NJASAP. I believe those pilots calling for change and the ones quickly gathering under the NJASAP banner, have already, and will continue to present very logical reasons for becoming an independent, in-house Union like other successful pilotgroups have done before them. Any pilots with an opposing viewpoint are free to post it on the NJ boards. I don't know what the IBT response will be, but it's ultimately up to the NJA pilotgroup --as it should be. NJW

An Independent Union is the logical choice for those who value unity and prefer self-determination.
 

fischman

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Just dreaming here...

Wouldn't it be wonderful if in the future, through NJASAP, we would be able to set up scholarship funds for our kids? Pilot mutual aid funds, etc to help our families in times of need?

Can't do that now...
 

HiSpeedFlyer

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What B19 doesnt understand is that it wasn't the name "Teamsters" that got us our industry leading contract and all the other things like dignity, honor and respect amongst our peers. It was the Pilot group who put their best foot forwards and blazed a pathway to what is now 1108, Strong Union.

B19.... it isnt a name that we are unionized for, its the group of guys and girls I proudly call Brothers and Sisters who control our destiny. We do not need to add to the coffers of the National organization that will not lift a finger in support on a national level. Ergo, we will continue to do our thing, with then Name Teamsters or NJASAP, and continue to promote harmony and goodwill with the rest of the company, and we will do it on our own terms. With that, we will better our pilot group, and our company. All the others (Flops, Flex, whoever) will take note, B19, then they will choose their own path.
 

realityman

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Forget B19. He's just stirring the pot.

Every post he makes continues to demonstrate his lack of understanding for anything that's happened at NJA in the past, right now, or what we're aiming for in the future.

He has no real insight into NJA's business. He has no insight AT ALL about how our local works, or how we've accomplished what we have. He has ZERO knowledge of the kind of working relationship our union currently has with our management.

Every single one of his examples he's used in ANY post he's made are easily pulled apart.

The true irony is that many of us have explained over and over and over ad nauseum about ALL of the subjects mentioned above. He's either too stupid to understand, too jaded to ever alter his thinking to accomodate the ever-changing conditions in the aviation world, or, the most likely scenario, just someone who enjoys shaking the beehive.

Folks, just quit responding to his posts and let him converse with himself. It's easy. Really!!
 

HiSpeedFlyer

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Oh, Yeah, B19...I almost forgot:



RRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!


Now SHADDUP and git back into your hole, you ignoramus!!
 

netjetwife

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Fisch, like minds think alike...;) I bet those thoughts have also occurred to the NJASAP leaders. We have a son in college so I can assure you (knowing the expense) I have mentioned the possibility of a scholarship before. Along those lines, have you noticed that the Pilot Mutual Aid program the leaders/volunteers are working on has been changed to a family fund? One of the nice things about StrongUnion (on a long list) is their recognition of the role our families play in giving moral support to the pilots and sacrificing family time that allows leaders/volunteers to concentrate on projects that benefit the entire group. Cheers, NJW
 

netjetwife

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duplicate post
 

netjetwife

1 of many w/an opinion
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Oh, Yeah, B19...I almost forgot: RRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Now SHADDUP and git back into your hole, you ignoramus!!
The report is in from the watch, Captain....:p

We have hoisted the new flag (njasap.com) of black and gold.
The crew is quickly gathering (cards) and sending up a cheer.
With pride in past accomplishments they recall victories of old.
And today they are toasting a bright future with green beer. :D
 
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