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Unintended Consequences: New ATP Rule

727gm

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A friend of mine with over 10000 hours, mostly multiengine jet, with over 3000 hours of heavy jet FAR 121 PIC/check airman time, 13 type ratings, and a FAA designated examiner, has determined that he is ineligible to be a captain under Part 121 by the new rule.

The new rule could particularly affect people who are otherwise eminently qualified for the left seat, and affect new startup carriers, or small 121 operators, direct-hire captain positions, or some who are out-of-work on the effective date.

From the rule:
*************************************************
FAR 121.436 Pilot Qualification: Certificates and experience requirements.
(a) No certificate holder may use nor may any pilot act as pilot in command of an aircraft (or as second in command of an aircraft in a flag or supplemental operation that requires three or more pilots) unless the pilot:
(1) Holds an airline transport pilot certificate not subject to the limitations in FAR 61.167 of this chapter;
(2) Holds an appropriate aircraft type rating for the aircraft being flown; and
(3) If serving as pilot in command, has 1,000 hours as second in command in operations under this part, pilot in command in operations under FAR 91.1053(a)(2)(i) of this chapter, pilot in command in operations under FAR 135.243(a)(1) of this chapter, or any combination thereof. For those pilots who are employed as pilot in command in part 121 operations on July 31, 2013, compliance with the requirements of this subparagraph is not required.
(b) No certificate holder may use nor may any pilot act as second in command unless the pilot holds an airline transport pilot certificate and an appropriate aircraft type rating for the aircraft being flown. A second-in-command type rating obtained under FAR 61.55 does not satisfy the requirements of this section.
(c) For the purpose of satisfying the flight hour requirement in paragraph (a)(3), a pilot may credit 500 hours of military flight time obtained as pilot in command of a multiengine turbine- powered, fixed-wing airplane in an operation requiring more than one pilot.
(d) Compliance with the requirements of this section is required by August 1, 2013. However, for those pilots who are employed as second in command in part 121 operations on July 31, 2013, compliance with the type rating requirement in paragraph (b) is not required until January 1, 2016.
***********************************************

In his case, he has around 285 hours of 121 SIC time prior to upgrade to Captain, and as mentioned before, 3000+ hours as 121 PIC. His airline shut down, and he has not returned to FAR 121 flying, but has a couple hundred hours as FAR 135 Jet PIC.
So in this case, the 121SIC and 135PIC do not add up to 1000 hours.

Following the rule, none of his 121 PIC time counts toward the 1000 hours, and is not grandfathered, as he will not be employed as as a FAR 121 PIC on July 31, 2013.
Although there are not that many people who upgraded so soon after getting into 121 flying, the drafters of this rule have not allowed for this case.
 
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atpcliff

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He can get a waiver, or the rule will be changed, because 1000+ hours as 121 PIC is a better qualification than 1000+ hours as 121 SIC.

cliff
PVG
 

pilotyip

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For those pilots who are employed as pilot in command in part 121 operations on July 31, 2013, compliance with the requirements of this subparagraph is not required.
sounds like to me he keeps his job
 

ackattacker

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hah!
He can get a waiver, or the rule will be changed, because 1000+ hours as 121 PIC is a better qualification than 1000+ hours as 121 SIC.

cliff
PVG

I agree with cliff here. The obvious intent of the reg is to count up 1000 hours of operations that, under the new rules, require an ATP. So they're saying PIC time in operations that require an ATP - That's 91.1053(a)(2)(i) and 135.243(a)(1), or SIC time in 121 operations, adds up to 1000 hours.

They seem to have forgotten to put in that 121 PIC time counts... but I don't see the FAA enforcing that because it's an obvious oversight. One could make the argument that 121 PIC trumps 121 SIC, as cliff says, or one could make the argument that part 91 rules are, as a general rule, still applicable under 121 unless the 121 rules are more restrictive. Hence someone operating under 121 rules is also complying 91.1053(a)(2)(i).
 

727gm

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but I don't see the FAA enforcing that because it's an obvious oversight. One could make the argument......

They felt they needed to mention the medical, which seemed obvious to me, being as the reg was about experience, not health standards....but I expect they'll probably overlook this one.
They only let the Mil guys credit 500 hours....Why, I wonder...especially if it was transport....Though it may be because they feel these fellows have to unlearn that a flight is a mission. ;)
 
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pilotyip

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Egads!

We just got an AC from the Feds. Basically says after 7-31-14, you can only get an ATP for 121 ops at a 121 air carrier, and that you must have 30 hours of FAA approved ground school at a 121 air carrier and 10 hours of flight time in a level "C" or "D" sim with a GTOW greater than 40,000#'s in order to have permission to take the ATP written. It is a new AC and this is an initial reaction to what I read today
AC 61-138 - Airline Transport Pilot Certification Training Program
 
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ackattacker

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hah!
This section applies to aircraft requiring 3 or more pilots. Read it carefully again.

Incorrect. Read it MORE carefully again. It applies to all PIC operations under 121 and SIC during 3-pilot operations (since the SIC in that case may be performing duties as PIC when the real Captain is sleeping in back).
 

ackattacker

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hah!
We just got an AC from the Feds.....


Your link is broken but I found the AC on the FAA website here:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_61-138.pdf

I'm scratching my head over this, as well. Cursory reading, it does seem to say what you say it says. Doesn't really affect 121 operations who are teaching this stuff this way already anyway, but what if you need an ATP for 135 Scheduled (Cape Air), single pilot. You need to fly 6 hours in a 40,000 pound full-flight simulator and receive 30 hours of training on dutch roll and swept wing aerodynamics and crew resource management and turbine engine operation? There must be something I'm not seeing here...
 

nordo_2

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He can get a waiver, or the rule will be changed, because 1000+ hours as 121 PIC is a better qualification than 1000+ hours as 121 SIC.

cliff
PVG

This is the heart of the problem. Unlike lawyers and medical doctors. Pilots have no control of their licensing. We are completely at the mercy of political forces that we do not control. This is why our unions are so weak and ineffective.
 

livin'thesim

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I've always thought the the main problem ALPA had was that unlike doctors and lawyers, they have no control over the creation and certification of their colleagues.
 

nordo_2

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I've always thought the the main problem ALPA had was that unlike doctors and lawyers, they have no control over the creation and certification of their colleagues.

This is exactly it. Why can you find an fbo with a ready and eager flight instructor, a flight school, or aviation college almost anywhere in the U.S.? Yet you only find a small fraction of medical schools, in comparison. Is there a shortage of anatomy books? What do we need more of, pilots or doctors?

The AMA won't aid in propagating more of themselves. Keeping their numbers low. Helping to create a favorable market demand.

Any anger towards alpa for its ineffectiveness, or any pilot union is misplaced. Pilot unions are ultimately doomed from the get go.
 

Nevets

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In his case, he has around 285 hours of 121 SIC time prior to upgrade to Captain, and as mentioned before, 3000+ hours as 121 PIC. His airline shut down, and he has not returned to FAR 121 flying, but has a couple hundred hours as FAR 135 Jet PIC.
So in this case, the 121SIC and 135PIC do not add up to 1000 hours.

Following the rule, none of his 121 PIC time counts toward the 1000 hours, and is not grandfathered, as he will not be employed as as a FAR 121 PIC on July 31, 2013.
Although there are not that many people who upgraded so soon after getting into 121 flying, the drafters of this rule have not allowed for this case.

If he gets hired before August 1, 2013 he is grandfathered. Otherwise, he can go to the right seat like the rest of us. But it seems to me that he would qualify as director of operations or Cheif pilot of any start up, no?

We just got an AC from the Feds. Basically says after 7-31-14, you can only get an ATP for 121 ops at a 121 air carrier, and that you must have 30 hours of FAA approved ground school at a 121 air carrier and 10 hours of flight time in a level "C" or "D" sim with a GTOW greater than 40,000#'s in order to have permission to take the ATP written. It is a new AC and this is an initial reaction to what I read today
AC 61-138 - Airline Transport Pilot Certification Training Program

If you read the final rule, it says any 121, 135, 141, or 142 certificate holder can offer the course.

As for cape, it only applies to their operation that requires an ATP. Do all their operations require the pic to be an ATP?

Your link is broken but I found the AC on the FAA website here:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_61-138.pdf

I'm scratching my head over this, as well. Cursory reading, it does seem to say what you say it says. Doesn't really affect 121 operations who are teaching this stuff this way already anyway, but what if you need an ATP for 135 Scheduled (Cape Air), single pilot. You need to fly 6 hours in a 40,000 pound full-flight simulator and receive 30 hours of training on dutch roll and swept wing aerodynamics and crew resource management and turbine engine operation? There must be something I'm not seeing here...

It applies only to operations under part 121, ?135.243(a)(1), and ?91.1053(a)(2)(i). Does all of cape air's flight segments operated under any of those regulations?
 
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ackattacker

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As for cape, it only applies to their operation that requires an ATP. Do all their operations require the pic to be an ATP?

It applies only to operations under part 121, ?135.243(a)(1), and ?91.1053(a)(2)(i). Does all of cape air's flight segments operated under any of those regulations?

Almost all of Cape Air's 402 operations are under 135.243(a)(1), and require an ATP. The only exception is the mail run between Hyannis and Nantucket. This rule could add millions to their training costs.
 

BentOver

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This is exactly it. Why can you find an fbo with a ready and eager flight instructor, a flight school, or aviation college almost anywhere in the U.S.? Yet you only find a small fraction of medical schools, in comparison. Is there a shortage of anatomy books? What do we need more of, pilots or doctors?

It is because aviation is generally a hobby to all except the those who pursue it as a profession. Nobody goes through 8 years of medical school just for fun.

And as we all know, there are far too many professional pilots who are willing to take it in the shorts just to stay in the sky. I doubt there are as many Doctors who would do the same..

In the end, comparing us to Doctors is a kinda silly. We have a great deal of responsibility. But I would never compare that to a heart surgeon etc...
 

Nevets

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Almost all of Cape Air's 402 operations are under 135.243(a)(1), and require an ATP. The only exception is the mail run between Hyannis and Nantucket. This rule could add millions to their training costs.

Oh, I didn't know that. I thought that was for multi engine turbojet powered airplanes with more than 9 seats or something like that. Sucks for them!
 
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nordo_2

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It is because aviation is generally a hobby to all except the those who pursue it as a profession. Nobody goes through 8 years of medical school just for fun.

And as we all know, there are far too many professional pilots who are willing to take it in the shorts just to stay in the sky. I doubt there are as many Doctors who would do the same..

In the end, comparing us to Doctors is a kinda silly. We have a great deal of responsibility. But I would never compare that to a heart surgeon etc...


You're missing the point. There are too many professional pilots, because the licensing is relatively easy to obtain. Up until recently, they were allowed to occupy those entry-level positions, with minimal criteria. The FAA's intervention in this regard, is only a product of political pressure. Not because any pilot union demanded it.

What if pilot unions were able to influence licensing, and other professional pilot qualifications?

We would do what other professional unions try to do. Limit our numbers. Pilot unions are generally weak organizations, because we don't have a seat at the table that counts.
 

Shag McNasty

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What if pilot unions were able to influence licensing, and other professional pilot qualifications?

We would do what other professional unions try to do. Limit our numbers. Pilot unions are generally weak organizations, because we don't have a seat at the table that counts.

Then, just like the other union trades, you create a system where nepotism rules. Unless your dad blazed the trail first, you probably won't get in. Or maybe you could make a hefty "donation" to someone on the union selection committee. It would have nothing to do with merit, skill, brains etc. Is that what you would rather see?
 
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