pilotyip
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UAL Progress/Mood ?
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P3-Adub
Bye Bye !!!
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Not quite.
Just got off of the Southwest Website and a round trip flight from Oakland to Columbus is around $600.00 if taxes and other fees are included, same for a trip to Detroit. Now these are no restriction flights so you could get a less expensive ticket, I just wanted to point out that they DO charge more than what people think. People are beginning to expect $89.00 fares for these flights including some pilots on these boards. Take a look for yourselves. The stated SWA 2000 numbers absolutely contain fares that are in line with other carriers while offering the CHEAP tickets too, this is why they call it an average. Everyone does this. Does anyone believe that Southwest's costs are higher today than in 2000 ? Will the new contract affect those numbers in any way ? Congrats if they continue to make profits, I truely hope they do.
My point is that the expectation is going south and costs are going up. Costs will be reduced at the majors or they will not survive, productivity will need to increase as well if they are to compete with the lower cost business models.
Rjcap,
I think it is great you are flying the CRJ700, I never said that it would not be a nice career. Please don't take any of these posts as arrogant or hostile, just conversation seeking other opinions. Healthy debate. Better contracts cost money and reduce profits unless you raise ticket prices do they not ? If we do not believe that our profession is a worthy one that deserves a reasonable wage, then the slide will continue. This is not the "we are to be compared with doctors" opinion either.
I do find it hard to believe that 50 million dollar 737s, 40 million dollar A320s, and 18 million dollar CRJ700s (all estimates by the way) can operate for so little on the previous described 2 hour segments. Any idea of the age and average cost for a Southwest 737 ? A 737-300 burns roughly 5000 lbs and hour or 750 gallons, if fuels is $1.00 a gallon, then you have $1500.00 to cover in fuel alone for that 2 hour flight. Throw in insurance, maintenance, pilots, flight attendants, dispatchers, training, perdiem, uniforms, capitol expense, customer service, marketing, landing fees, and a whole list of other expenses to arrive at a hefty hourly cost.
If you only generate $7000.00 on that 2 hour leg then I would say that there cannot be much profit left in it. Is there something I am missing here ? I am not arguing with the 2000 SWA report, how does the 2001 report look, I do know they made a profit.
When you look at what is involved in the overall picture with the airline business, hard to believe that you can make money at $89.00???????????????????????????? Any idea what a Greyhound bus drives gets paid ?
Just got off of the Southwest Website and a round trip flight from Oakland to Columbus is around $600.00 if taxes and other fees are included, same for a trip to Detroit. Now these are no restriction flights so you could get a less expensive ticket, I just wanted to point out that they DO charge more than what people think. People are beginning to expect $89.00 fares for these flights including some pilots on these boards. Take a look for yourselves. The stated SWA 2000 numbers absolutely contain fares that are in line with other carriers while offering the CHEAP tickets too, this is why they call it an average. Everyone does this. Does anyone believe that Southwest's costs are higher today than in 2000 ? Will the new contract affect those numbers in any way ? Congrats if they continue to make profits, I truely hope they do.
My point is that the expectation is going south and costs are going up. Costs will be reduced at the majors or they will not survive, productivity will need to increase as well if they are to compete with the lower cost business models.
Rjcap,
I think it is great you are flying the CRJ700, I never said that it would not be a nice career. Please don't take any of these posts as arrogant or hostile, just conversation seeking other opinions. Healthy debate. Better contracts cost money and reduce profits unless you raise ticket prices do they not ? If we do not believe that our profession is a worthy one that deserves a reasonable wage, then the slide will continue. This is not the "we are to be compared with doctors" opinion either.
I do find it hard to believe that 50 million dollar 737s, 40 million dollar A320s, and 18 million dollar CRJ700s (all estimates by the way) can operate for so little on the previous described 2 hour segments. Any idea of the age and average cost for a Southwest 737 ? A 737-300 burns roughly 5000 lbs and hour or 750 gallons, if fuels is $1.00 a gallon, then you have $1500.00 to cover in fuel alone for that 2 hour flight. Throw in insurance, maintenance, pilots, flight attendants, dispatchers, training, perdiem, uniforms, capitol expense, customer service, marketing, landing fees, and a whole list of other expenses to arrive at a hefty hourly cost.
If you only generate $7000.00 on that 2 hour leg then I would say that there cannot be much profit left in it. Is there something I am missing here ? I am not arguing with the 2000 SWA report, how does the 2001 report look, I do know they made a profit.
When you look at what is involved in the overall picture with the airline business, hard to believe that you can make money at $89.00???????????????????????????? Any idea what a Greyhound bus drives gets paid ?
I think it can be said that the public doesn't care whether the airlines make a profit or not, so I'm not sure what you should educate them about. It's capitalism and competition.
United has the highest cost per available seat mile (ASM) in the industry. And with 900 hours being paid for 472 hours worked it's not that hard to see why the pilots add significantly to that cost. Not all of it, but a substantial amount. I'm curious, well not really, why the pilot group at United couldn't figure out a way to keep more pilots and get the hours paid closer to hours flown. But of course the guys at the top are more willing to take the pay cut and still not fly that much vs. less of a paycut and fly more hours. But those are the spoils of the union setup.
If anyone caught Kudlow and Kramer on cable last night they had Mr. Bethune on from Continental. It was an interesting segment about United and Mr. Bethune's view that they should NOT be given the loan gaurantees due to the fact that they are facing financial problems not because of 9/11 but because they have failed to compete in the open market.
Larry Kudlow made a point that from his perspective the Unions at United have put such a burden on them that bankruptcy is their only option.
I'ts wonderful to have a great contract and United management has done their share to cost the company billions, but 900 hours paid for 472 hours flown. That's just wrong. Period.
Slug
SWA Line Swine
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2001
- Posts
- 496
good one
Yep, EMB dude, a very good analogy.
It is a little disturbing that a major airline pilot who has been around a while believes that the public needs to be educated on what it costs to run an airline. IMHO the public couldn't give one rat's patutey about the inputs to the cost side of the ticket equation. They only care about the cost. And if someone can do it cheaper, then that is where the majority of sensible people will go. SWA and JBlue will sell their tickets to make an overall profit in the long run.
As for the productivity of a pilot force here are some easily obtainable tidbits.
UAL - 9200 pilots ------------- 1800 flights per day
SWA - 4400 pilots -------------- 2700 flights per day
Slug
Yep, EMB dude, a very good analogy.
It is a little disturbing that a major airline pilot who has been around a while believes that the public needs to be educated on what it costs to run an airline. IMHO the public couldn't give one rat's patutey about the inputs to the cost side of the ticket equation. They only care about the cost. And if someone can do it cheaper, then that is where the majority of sensible people will go. SWA and JBlue will sell their tickets to make an overall profit in the long run.
As for the productivity of a pilot force here are some easily obtainable tidbits.
UAL - 9200 pilots ------------- 1800 flights per day
SWA - 4400 pilots -------------- 2700 flights per day
Slug
Last edited:
canyonblue
Everyone loves Southwest
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 2,314
sideshow said:
Yea, and here's what else he had to say:
Continental CEO: No problem for travelers if United 'disappears'
Continental Airlines CEO Gordon Bethune is known for speaking his mind, and he didn't disappoint in a one-on-one interview with The Newark (N.J.) Star-Ledger. He saved one of his juiciest comments on the prospects of a collapse by reeling United Airlines. "If they have to shut down like Swissair did, I know we have a number of furloughed employees we'd be glad to recall, and I'd be glad to pull some airplanes out of the desert," he said. "I know American and Delta have thousands of furloughed employees, and we all have plenty of capacity. We'll be more than happy to fly all your passengers at Christmas time. Don't you worry, as an industry, there are plenty of seats out there. The country won't be disadvantaged if they disappear." The newspaper also revealed that Bethune was courted by United earlier this year, although he rebuffed the nation's No. 2 carrier to remain at Continental. "What kind of guy would do that, leave all your friends here for 30 pieces of silver," he said. "This is our team."
Re: Bethune's comments
Last time I checked we lived in a capitalist society. If you want your company to succeed, it may be at the expense of others. As much as I'd hate to see all my buds at United jobless, now more than ever it's time to look out for #1. Bethune just stated (tastelessly) what the best outcome would be in order for his company to get ahead. It would also probably enable my company to recall me. I humbly agree with Mr Bethune.
--(ex)ninepilot
Last time I checked we lived in a capitalist society. If you want your company to succeed, it may be at the expense of others. As much as I'd hate to see all my buds at United jobless, now more than ever it's time to look out for #1. Bethune just stated (tastelessly) what the best outcome would be in order for his company to get ahead. It would also probably enable my company to recall me. I humbly agree with Mr Bethune.
--(ex)ninepilot
LiveFreeorDie
Large Member
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2002
- Posts
- 224
Unions and Capitolism don't mix.
I bought a ticket for Christmas. Didn't care what the pilot thought a worthy wage was. If he thinks he is worth more than RJ pilot's pay -- he should get another job. I searched for a low fare. SWA was too many connections. Majors too expensive. Went to price line. Got my ticket. When the price offered = price I was willing to pay there was a sale. These airline pilots must be from the column hired with out college degree. This is just basic economics. Capitolism. The unions are socialist -- everyone is equal. Unions get higher wages than value they add. Look at the UAW. $25 per hour for filling a radiator with fluid -- no joke. United and Delta got great contracts three years ago that killed their airlines. Our tax dollars shouldn't bail them out. No one owes the furloughed airline pilots a job. I am also an out of work pilot. I went out and got a job. If I don't like the wage I should get educated, or start a business, or marry someone rich. It isn't the public who need to go to school. It is the airlines.
Good luck to y'all in this brave new world.
I bought a ticket for Christmas. Didn't care what the pilot thought a worthy wage was. If he thinks he is worth more than RJ pilot's pay -- he should get another job. I searched for a low fare. SWA was too many connections. Majors too expensive. Went to price line. Got my ticket. When the price offered = price I was willing to pay there was a sale. These airline pilots must be from the column hired with out college degree. This is just basic economics. Capitolism. The unions are socialist -- everyone is equal. Unions get higher wages than value they add. Look at the UAW. $25 per hour for filling a radiator with fluid -- no joke. United and Delta got great contracts three years ago that killed their airlines. Our tax dollars shouldn't bail them out. No one owes the furloughed airline pilots a job. I am also an out of work pilot. I went out and got a job. If I don't like the wage I should get educated, or start a business, or marry someone rich. It isn't the public who need to go to school. It is the airlines.
Good luck to y'all in this brave new world.
dispatchguy
Dad is my favorite title
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2001
- Posts
- 1,569
Re: Unions and Capitolism don't mix.
In UALs case, I firmly agree.
I am a former UAL employee, worked in OPBCM (UAL speak for the pilot crew desk) during the Summer of Love (Summer of 2000).
I wish nothing but good luck to my former colleagues - I know many people at UAL, in CHIDD, OPBCM, OPBWX, and a few other places.
UALs problem was incompetent senior management in the Goodwin era, and its legacy. I was working the ORD 767 crew desk the day the USAir merger was announced. Before the announcement, a friend of mine who was a CS lead at LAS, said that his station had had visits from VP after VP all saying the same thing "expect a major announcement in the west." His assumption was was the UAL-AWE merger was back on (there had been very strong rumors to that effect in the late 90s).
When it was announced, I was dumbstruck. I looked at the relative seat/mile costs. At the time, UAL was floating around 9 cents/mile - US was near 13 cpm. I couldnt believe it. Why in the hell would management propose a merger with the most expensive (in seat/mile costs) domestic airline? What crack were they smoking? They were in the middle of the most rancorous labor negotiation with the pilot group in their history, one which made 1985 look pleasant (according to the OPBCM old timers who had been around then).
During the Spring of 2000, all UAL non-union employees received what was called the "Vision 2000" pay realignment. At OPBCM, my salary jumped from around 28k to nearly 41k. I was happy. However, a very senior crew controller who had been around since dirt said "Dont go out and spend this raise. The only reason they can afford this is that were carrying full boats, we can tick off thousands of people a day, but it doesnt matter. BUT, the second the ecomony goes south, and it will, THIS company will be in a severe world of hurt." Very prophetic.
The Summer of Love cost UAL millions, in lost revenue due to the cancellations, lost shareholder value (due to the USAir announcement), and ill will. I talk to local travel agents around here at home and some still wont book UAL three years later.
All of the groups at UAL are responsible, for there is enough to go around. The UAL ALPA MEC, management, the PAFCA contract (starting dispatcher pay around 60k a year before the givebacks, topping out over 100K after 12 years), the AFA, all of the contracted groups - setting the bar high is nice, but in the end, was getting industry leading contracts worth it all? I remember when the Contract 2000 was ratified, and we were all happy that we could get back to running an airline - how wonderful to know that all the blood, sweat, and tears from the Summer of Love has all been essentially negated.
LiveFreeorDie said:
In UALs case, I firmly agree.
I am a former UAL employee, worked in OPBCM (UAL speak for the pilot crew desk) during the Summer of Love (Summer of 2000).
I wish nothing but good luck to my former colleagues - I know many people at UAL, in CHIDD, OPBCM, OPBWX, and a few other places.
UALs problem was incompetent senior management in the Goodwin era, and its legacy. I was working the ORD 767 crew desk the day the USAir merger was announced. Before the announcement, a friend of mine who was a CS lead at LAS, said that his station had had visits from VP after VP all saying the same thing "expect a major announcement in the west." His assumption was was the UAL-AWE merger was back on (there had been very strong rumors to that effect in the late 90s).
When it was announced, I was dumbstruck. I looked at the relative seat/mile costs. At the time, UAL was floating around 9 cents/mile - US was near 13 cpm. I couldnt believe it. Why in the hell would management propose a merger with the most expensive (in seat/mile costs) domestic airline? What crack were they smoking? They were in the middle of the most rancorous labor negotiation with the pilot group in their history, one which made 1985 look pleasant (according to the OPBCM old timers who had been around then).
During the Spring of 2000, all UAL non-union employees received what was called the "Vision 2000" pay realignment. At OPBCM, my salary jumped from around 28k to nearly 41k. I was happy. However, a very senior crew controller who had been around since dirt said "Dont go out and spend this raise. The only reason they can afford this is that were carrying full boats, we can tick off thousands of people a day, but it doesnt matter. BUT, the second the ecomony goes south, and it will, THIS company will be in a severe world of hurt." Very prophetic.
The Summer of Love cost UAL millions, in lost revenue due to the cancellations, lost shareholder value (due to the USAir announcement), and ill will. I talk to local travel agents around here at home and some still wont book UAL three years later.
All of the groups at UAL are responsible, for there is enough to go around. The UAL ALPA MEC, management, the PAFCA contract (starting dispatcher pay around 60k a year before the givebacks, topping out over 100K after 12 years), the AFA, all of the contracted groups - setting the bar high is nice, but in the end, was getting industry leading contracts worth it all? I remember when the Contract 2000 was ratified, and we were all happy that we could get back to running an airline - how wonderful to know that all the blood, sweat, and tears from the Summer of Love has all been essentially negated.
FBUCK said, "...Nine your comets can only lead me to one conclusion: you are a one way buddy fu$#ing, Semper me, turd."
Wow, quite a scathing reply. I'll try to hold back my tears. I think we all know that UAL will not disappear. The fact of the matter is that right now there is too much capacity, so a reduction in the number of airlines might be good for the industry. However, the government, citizens, labor, and management are not about to let that happen at United (or any other major).
Let's consider another different (though related) industry: building the airliners. Boeing has laid off around 20,000 people and just announced 5000 more. Why? Besides the obvious decrease/cancellations of orders, Airbus is selling their product for a cheaper than normal, solely to try and get marketshare from Boeing. Do you think Airbus management should stop this dastardly scheme? No, it's just business.
Last time I checked, all the airlines are extremely competitive businesses. They will (and should) do anything they can in order to make more money for their shareholders. This includes Mr. Bethune's ploy which is apparently to try and influence the decision-makers on the Air Transport Stabilization Board with some tasteless comments about his competitors. It's just business.
I do not wish the destruction of any airline, but I can't fault Bethune for his comments. My own myopic view-through-a-straw of the airline business is probably way off target anyways. I just hope the economy rebounds and we can all get back to work sooner rather than later.
(ex)ninepilot
Wow, quite a scathing reply. I'll try to hold back my tears. I think we all know that UAL will not disappear. The fact of the matter is that right now there is too much capacity, so a reduction in the number of airlines might be good for the industry. However, the government, citizens, labor, and management are not about to let that happen at United (or any other major).
Let's consider another different (though related) industry: building the airliners. Boeing has laid off around 20,000 people and just announced 5000 more. Why? Besides the obvious decrease/cancellations of orders, Airbus is selling their product for a cheaper than normal, solely to try and get marketshare from Boeing. Do you think Airbus management should stop this dastardly scheme? No, it's just business.
Last time I checked, all the airlines are extremely competitive businesses. They will (and should) do anything they can in order to make more money for their shareholders. This includes Mr. Bethune's ploy which is apparently to try and influence the decision-makers on the Air Transport Stabilization Board with some tasteless comments about his competitors. It's just business.
I do not wish the destruction of any airline, but I can't fault Bethune for his comments. My own myopic view-through-a-straw of the airline business is probably way off target anyways. I just hope the economy rebounds and we can all get back to work sooner rather than later.
(ex)ninepilot
Nine, it does not surprise me to hear that someone like you is on the verge of tears, but be strong. I felt the need to reply to your original post because of it’s content. You basically said you would like to see United go under so that you could be recalled quicker. That is what I took issue with and responded to. Your response does not address this issue at all and goes off on some ridiculous comparison to competition between aircraft manufactures. This has nothing to do with competition, and everything to do with you wishing for a company to fold and 80,000 people to be out of work so you can benefit. You obviously do not see the disgusting selfishness in this comment and way of thinking, and probably never will.
AMF Richard
AMF Richard
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