UAL Pilots to wear leather jackets.

[Occam's Razor]

Occam what is the answer? As stated in the ATW article no one wants to do the job of airline managment. Pilots don't like what is going on, but they have no answers to give to managment that will make it better. As stated in another thread. All the pilots who want the "good ole days" back should get together, buy DAL, fire all the management, hire there own team, talk them into doing their jobs for pilot wages. When the airline turns around the stockholders will be happy, the pilots will be happy, and managment will have the resume to move on to another job at higher pay.

The solution is simple, but can't be accomplished simply.

The "good ole days" featured managers who were accountable. A kid got hired at an airline and worked his/her way up from junior lackey...to CEO. The compay...YOUR COMPANY...was in your blood. Your livelihood, your pension, and to a certain extent, your professional identity, were directly connected to the success of your company.

Now, partially due to the "Jack Welchification" of corporate America, exectuives at United don't compete against Delta....they compete against each other! "Steve, your department lagged Edward's department by 40% last quarter...you're fired!"

So Steve goes to work for another airline. Only this time he's more Machivellian at work. He becomes a cannibal. His goal is to take care of himself first. CEO's encourage internal competition becase they think it makes their company "leaner". They like cannibals because they're "aggressive".

The cannibals prey on those who are either too slow, or can't defend themselves. Pilots are the latter. 10,000 control freaks who can't agree on a fixed retirement age, or who-should-fly-what-size-aircraft are brunch for cannibals who are practiced in the methods of divide and conquer. Rather than gathering the parties of interest together, the cannibals pit them against each other, then bonk them on the head.

Look at guys like Steve Wolf. Cut his teeth at American...then hopped from airline-to-airline. At each airline (Republic, Flying Tigers, United, USAir), he divided the herd, hacked at their contracts, then sold the airline. In the case of United, he pulled the ulitmate scam....he sold it to the employees.

In each case he walked away with millions of dollars.

The fix for our industry is to eliminate the rewards for cannibalism. Notice I'm not calling for a "level playing field"? That's a myth! The Serengeti is a level playing field, and the cheetahs always eat the zebras instead of vice versa.

Pilots will have to collectively adopt anti-cannibal provisions in their contract(s). It will take time, and there will be a lot of zebra carcasses on the plains before it happens.

 

[mar]

The Facts of Life

The fix for our industry is to eliminate the rewards for cannibalism. Notice I'm not calling for a "level playing field"? That's a myth! The Serengeti is a level playing field, and the cheetahs always eat the zebras instead of vice versa.

Pilots will have to collectively adopt anti-cannibal provisions in their contract(s). It will take time, and there will be a lot of zebra carcasses on the plains before it happens.

<shiver>

Another good post but that one scared the crap out of me.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

O. Razor and Mar... good stuff... .... It might hurt the heads in the herd, nonetheless..keep 'em coming...

 

[Hvy]

I'm just happy that in their cash-strapped, bankruptcy-flirting airline, they are finding the need to buy all new leather jackets for all their pilots. All the meanwhile asking for concessions and wage cuts.

UAL is not buying anything. The jackets are optional and the cost comes out of our own pockets. It is only allowed on domestic trips.

 

[FN FAL]

Plus, the more pilots are looking like bikers with their leather jackets, ball caps and back packs, the easier it will be to assume they are blue collar workers.

 

[Hvy]

Plus, the more pilots are looking like bikers with their leather jackets, ball caps and back packs, the easier it will be to assume they are blue collar workers.

Although I have no plan to purchase a leather jacket, I think that they look very nice. Besides, what's wrong w/ leather jackets? Our military pilots wear them and look dang sharp!

Oh yeah.....like it or not....we're labor.

 

[GogglesPisano]

This thread started with leather jackets, and now we're delving in the finer philosophies of profit vs compassion and where pilots fit in.

Good posts Occam and Mar!

 

[mar]

Where do I fit in?

This thread started with leather jackets, and now we're delving in the finer philosophies of profit vs compassion and where pilots fit in.

I fit in my leather jacket.

And my company bought mine. But we can only talk about leather jacket for so long.

Mine was made in Pakistan.

 

[Big Duke Six]

Good posts guys!

Occam - What could we possibly do to eliminate "cannibalism" via our contracts?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Good posts guys!

Occam - What could we possibly do to eliminate "cannibalism" via our contracts?

I suggest: More involvment in the process. More education. More empathy for other pilot groups. A better working relationship between pilot groups. Eliminate Us v. Them with our Ranks.

The arguing and debating on the message board is really ineffective. I maintain that if we had these debates face to face we would really find more in common. It is difficult to communicate effectlely on the msg. boards...

Merry Christmas to all.

 

[pilotyip]

Occam The "good ole days" featured managers who were accountable.
You left out this part which many may not remember. Back in the old days before de-reg there was a pact called "Mutual Aid". This provided income to airlines that were shut down by employees on strike. If the employees at ABC Airlines went on strike and the load factor on XYZ Air went up, some of the revenue from the increased load factor at XYZ Air flowed back to ABC Airlines. This gave the shut down airline a source of revenue to allow them to let the employees stay out on strike a longer time. It gave a balance to both management and union to reach a reasonable contract. When mutual aid went away, it gave the unions a much stronger hand. The highly leveraged airline could not stay in business with a stop in cash flow for any extended period. This lead to shorter strikes, and contracts company would prefer not to enter. This stronger position may have been good for the employee in the short term, but is has been detrimental to the airline industry in the long run.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Occam The "good ole days" featured managers who were accountable.
You left out this part which many may not remember. Back in the old days before de-reg there was a pact called "Mutual Aid". This provided income to airlines that were shut down by employees on strike. If the employees at ABC Airlines went on strike and the load factor on XYZ Air went up, some of the revenue from the increased load factor at XYZ Air flowed back to ABC Airlines. This gave the shut down airline a source of revenue to allow them to let the employees stay out on strike a longer time. It gave a balance to both management and union to reach a reasonable contract. When mutual aid went away, it gave the unions a much stronger hand. The highly leveraged airline could not stay in business with a stop in cash flow for any extended period. This lead to shorter strikes, and contracts company would prefer not to enter. This stronger position may have been good for the employee in the short term, but is has been detrimental to the airline industry in the long run.

Not sure I agree with this. This is exactly what Lorenzo used to gut and slash his labor contracts with his first strike. Lorenzo pushed for a strike fearlessly because he knew he had Mutual Aid.

After Dereg, Lorenzo played CAL vs EAL to destroy labor. Not sure unions had a stronger hand.

The problem is the RLA and fly now grieve it later. This isn't the unions mantra but the gov't maintaining the airlines are an economic necessity. Funny they don't treat the workers as a necessity. More a like a disposable tool.

A freak of nature and an economic Hitler, Lorenzo gamed the system at everyones expense finally getting himself banned from the industry foerver.

Does he still dine with the Bush's?

 

[Airmike767]

All excellent posts and thought provoking. Could the answer have always been a national seniority list based upon pilot license issue at the commercial level?

 

[pilotyip]

EAL was broken by the Machinists; sold to Lorenzo, he then just picked the bones and stole assets for CAL, mutual aid was not part of this.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

All excellent posts and thought provoking. Could the answer have always been a national seniority list based upon pilot license issue at the commercial level?

A National sen list? UAL is recalling or getting ready to... How would the next UAL pilot like to NOT get called because a PanAm pilot had rights. Or a more "senior" Delta pilot...

A National Sen list sounds great with anti-growth... well, not even then... National Sen List. B-A-D...

EAL was broken by the Machinists; sold to Lorenzo, he then just picked the bones and stole assets for CAL, mutual aid was not part of this.

Agreed. My post was not well written... Instead of using the no longer mutual aid, Lorenzo just pitted EAL vs. CAL...

 

[Occam's Razor]

Good posts guys!

Occam - What could we possibly do to eliminate "cannibalism" via our contracts?

1. Use the tools we have! Pilot groups who are members of ALPA have a tool that can't be matched by airline managements: Anti-Trust immunity. For example, pilots at Delta, Comair, and ASA are all members of ALPA. Their MEC's operate independently, but connect through the national structure. That means they can get together and map out a clear unified strategy to counter their management's cannibalism. They can link objectives to insure that one group isn't whip-sawed against the other two. Managements can't get together to set fares...but pilots can get together to set wages!

2. Index. Just as CEO's use "MBO's" (Management By Objective) to set department goals, pilot contracts should set incentives and penalties for achievements by departments. Example: If duty days are less than 12-hours (or ____, if you prefer), the schedule builders get to use a higher value trip rig. In exchange for "mutually acceptable" language regarding layover hotel selection, management gets to reduce per diem by ___-cents. That way, if hotel rates spike for some reason, managements have the flexibility to go to non-approved properties, but pay a higher per diem rate.

3. Put executive compensation limits in the contract! Pilots take a cut? Nobody gets a bonus until the cut has "snapped-back". If management needs to hire a new hot shot, and feel they need to pay the new cannibal a nice bonus, they have to come to the pilots to get approval.

4. Board Seat(s). The pilots at NWA have a pilot on the NWA Board of Directors. Since all voting members of a BOD must be in-the-loop on all corporate plans and activities, it reduces the chance of surprises. Pilots hate surprises. It doesn't eliminate cannibals, but it gives you all the gouge on the cannibals (pay, incentives, etc).

The overall goal is to incentify cooperation and empathy for our priorities. Good behavior should be rewarded with flexibility (flexibility is like opium to managers!).

 

[pilotyip]

So Occam lets me see if I read this correctly under your plan if an airline has a cost structure that is out of line with the market and wages make up 42% of the company's budget. The company has to make cuts to survive; you can not cut fuel, A/C leases, etc. So the cuts have to come out of wages, or productivity has to be increased which means lay offs and flowbacks to the right seat as the seniority list shrinks. Under your plan a manager who tried to save the airline would take a penalty for their action. Am I close? if I am how do you attract top talent to save the airline? BTW USA Jet buys the leather jackets for their pilots and gives them $200 each year as a uniform allowance to buy new ones if they want to.

 

[Occam's Razor]

So Occam lets me see if I read this correctly under your plan if an airline has a cost structure that is out of line with the market and wages make up 42% of the company's budget. The company has to make cuts to survive; you can not cut fuel, A/C leases, etc. So the cuts have to come out of wages, or productivity has to be increased which means lay offs and flowbacks to the right seat as the seniority list shrinks. Under your plan a manager who tried to save the airline would take a penalty for their action. Am I close? if I am how do you attract top talent to save the airline?

Nowhere in my post(s) does it say that Labor shouldn't be willing to take cuts to help a company survive. I have done it in the past, and was rewarded for it with stock and a Board seat. It was a no-brainer.

The problem is short-term cannibals who come in, slice-and-dice, then make off with millions. I want managers who are as committed to the long-term success of my company as I am. Steve Wolf (and other cannibals of his ilk) have been brought in to "save the airline", and ended-up simply piling on debt, slashing wages, then selling the whole thing to others.

I'm sure you're not suggesting that airline executives should be immune to the same paycuts that we are taking...are you? Is Tilton above taking the same hits that his employees take?

The excuse I've heard is, "Hey! We're making critical decisions here! We deserve more!"

Yeah...I don't know anything about making critical decisions....

You ask how we can attract top talent to save an airline. If you believe the bozos running the airlines now are "top talent", then we need to discuss that first.

With maybe 1 or 2 exceptions, all of them will have moved on within the next 7 years.

 

[Hvy]

I too would like some stable management. Unfortunately, neither one of us have much control over what happens. As much as we don't like to admit it, as pilots we are pretty far down on the food chain when it comes to corporate decisions.

Remember, Tilton was brought in here to fix things. As painful as it has been, most people admit that without him it is doubtful that we would be flying today. I'm certainly not a fan of what has happened but I am still flying airplanes and I'm still getting a decent (although much less decent) paycheck. As far as him taking paycuts....he was brought to UAL after the fact. He is under no obligation to do so, although, as misery loves company, it would be nice to see him take it in the shorts. Should they get the stock grab they're attempting? Of course not! Let's hope we can stop that!

I think the important thing is...we are coming out of bankruptcy very soon. It will be an interesting and hopefully exciting time for all of the employees. I'd certainly much rather be here than at a couple of other airlines that STILL have to go through all of the pain we have experienced over the last 3-4 years. Things could always be worse. Let's become profitable again, then work together to make things better.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

There was a time when Air Line CEO's where company men, not dollar dogs

"Fundamental Things"
by Rick Drury

Even he had them, thoughts of what could have been, if only things had been different, but now it was beyond all that. This part of his story was about to end. Yes, even Bogart had mixed emotions as Ingrid shed a tear and then walked through the mist to the tune of old round engines as a studio orchestra played to our hearts. Of course, the 'usual suspects' would be rounded up, blamed for everything. They always are. Tomorrow would be another day, a new beginning. What is past is history and we move onward and forward, ideally with positive lessons learned. Wallowing in the mud of what could and should have been is not nutritious fare.
Sooner or later all stories end. And now it is my turn. It has come to this, an old movie fading to "THE END'. I am age sixty and am on my way off stage. So I am now frequently asked, would I like to change that age limit? Absolutely! I wish it were age fifty-five, or less. But that is a personal thing. To explain is to examine the current state of the industry - or 'demise' is perhaps a more apt epithet. It is to briefly express what I miss and why.


When I first joined the 'real' airlines in 1973, we all knew the fellow with the job title of "Chief Pilot'. He was not twenty or thirty years old, but more like fifty, maybe near retirement age. His office was full of aviation memorabilia, photos of the airplanes he had flown with the company - and that meant all of them - in every venue, in every bit of lousy weather from typhoons to the ice and snow of many winters, from props to jets. He had walked the walk over and again, so when he said something about what we did or how we ought to do it, his word carried the weight of not only authority but true line experience. He knew all the fundamentals, because his flight bag carried the scars of 20 years or more of flightdeck life. The stripes on his sleeve were even worn and fading, as the wearing away from thousands of hours doing the real job took the sheen off new gear. In a way, this was a badge of honor.


His office was a fun place to visit. That is if you loved airplanes, because they had been his life. There were models of the company airplanes, and he was an expert in all of them, wall and tables with all those great aviation photos, even some books and magazines on aviation, from history to current times. This place was something like a visit to your grandfather who had done it all, who now resided in some wonderful room of magic, and you were allowed to wander and enjoy. Unless it was your turn to receive his fury because you had done something stupid. Even then, you took it because you knew that he was right and this was not political or windows-dressing nonsense. In fact, he rejected being used in that way. He was real.


In this image, he also had merit above and beyond our respect. He could also let the CEO and his minions - plus the FAA - know when they were wrong, or that something they proposed was dumb, or that their demands were preposterous. He was in a position of honor, gained by years of line service covering every aspect of the flight operations of the company. He stood up for the troops and we knew it. When his type retired, another from the same mold would be there, an anchor in our aviation careers. But those guys are long gone. And I miss them.


The corporate replacement philosophy was simple. A seasoned veteran who speaks up was unacceptable. They wanted someone who would sell his soul for particular financial arrangements, a special retirement package, the opportunity to not fly except on little jaunts of their choosing on pleasant days to enjoyable places, for the illusion of power and prestige, and who would sing the political slant no matter how ludicrous or harmful or even dangerous. Their personal mantra was the invidious, "Up yours, I got mine'.