UAL Pilots to wear leather jackets.

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Saw a UAL pilot with a leather jacket. Asked another UAL pilot about it... UAL is getting gibson and barnes leather jackets. However the UAL pilot above modified his own leather jacket, before the sizing and ordering.

Jokingly the thought was if "we" are all going to leather the DAL guys will look quite dandy in thier double breasted leather coats. Ankle length?

Finally, what is up with MESA wearing windbreaker jackets....??

 

[Flyerjosh]

Gibson and Barnes will probably make you a great deal on a leather jacket that has "independence air" embroidered inside of it...

I'm kind of surprised that UAL is going that route... doesn't seem to fit with their tailored, pin-stripe gold epaulet, corporate suit image...

 

[Tarzan]

Wish we got to wear leather jackets. There isn't enough room to carry a jacket I can actually use in my overnight luggage. Be nice to pull the shoulder boards and wear it out to eat instead of freezing my butt off on the way to find food.

 

[User546]

I'm just happy that in their cash-strapped, bankruptcy-flirting airline, they are finding the need to buy all new leather jackets for all their pilots. All the meanwhile asking for concessions and wage cuts.

 

[rfresh]

I read in the Los Angeles Times yesterday how UAL messed up with long pax lines somewhere back east. The city had to send in 4 buses so the pax could wait in the heated buses. A UAL spokesperson said they did indeed screw up, that they didn't handle the crowds correctly, etc. They said we've been in bankrupty for almost 3 years and want to come out and treat our customers the right way!! If they don't know how to service their customers without making them wait in long lines by now...they never will!

The same management team has driven UAL to the brink of going out of business for the past 8 years and yet they are still at the top making all the bad decisions (aka the 'Ted' disaster) and voting themselves million Dollar bonuses. The newspapers reported this year that 8 of the top management executives each got over 1M in bonuses! When asked how can they do that they replied that they didn't 'want to do that' but they 'had to' in order to keep the top executives from leaving!! Are these the same executives who dreamed up the Ted fleet?

 

[pilotyip]

This is a repeat, but it fits. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. An issue of ATW in the last year had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. Bonuses and preimum pay are needed to retain top talent. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time. Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management. I saw an article in ATW in the past couple years that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do it.

 

[Jack Schitt]

Valid point Yip, but here's the kicker. Pilots aren't awarded golden parachutes when they make bad decisions. Management pukes are rewarded even when they screw up.

 

[rfresh]

Also, I think that for the salaries the top executives are making, there would be a long line of people waiting to step in and take over their positions...even without the promise of a bonus.

And let's not forget who approves 1M+ executive bonuses - the executives themselves!!

 

[C-150ETOPS]

UAL using Gibson & Barnes?

I would hope whoever decided on them and the material isn't as retarded as AA was.


Here is a snippet from AA's leather jacket site

"Your jacket will be made from black, chrome-tanned, aniline-dyed, lightly-pigmented goatskin from Baluchistan. "

"Baluchistan"? YGBSM

Not too far after 9/11, some genius clothes AA (and maybe now UAL) pilots with a material from an area where if they aren't directly harboring Bin Laden, they basically support his view that we should die.
Now throw in the fact that the goat herder probably also had carnal relations with the first owner of the leather, and I think I will stick with the polyester.

Maybe they can make our neckties out of the same red/white "picnic tablecloth" scarfs the guys wear on the most wanted sites.

 

[pilotyip]

Jack as stated in the original posts, pilots are interchangeable, their skills are not unique, any professional pilot with proper training can do the job. The same is not true of someone who can run an extremely large organization. How are you going to attract someone with the talent to save UAL without industry standard compensation package?

 

[DoinTime]

The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts.

Without management you could not operate the airline

Which one is it? Either the mangement has control of the airline or they don't. Surely if the airline is run by Union contract and government regulation you could do without all the top heavy management.

 

[Jack Schitt]

Jack as stated in the original posts, pilots are interchangeable, their skills are not unique, any professional pilot with proper training can do the job. The same is not true of someone who can run an extremely large organization. How are you going to attract someone with the talent to save UAL without industry standard compensation package?

Hey I'm all for fair compensation, but what happened to accountability? Where's the incentive to succeed when you know you've got a million dollar severence package and a job interview at Delta waiting for you after you're done running UAL into the ground? Sorry, now what were you saying about leather jackets?

 

[pilotyip]

Leather Jackets again

USA Jet pilots have leather jackets, with company logo and an american flag on the left shoulder

 

[Herman Bloom]

Pilots who yell about management are by and large class warriors. And like all class warriors, they would JUMP at the *hypothetical* opportunity to assume an upper management position if the price was right.

Yip is absolutely correct: these are the best managers money can buy, and pilots are readily replaceable. Why is this such a shock to some of you?

 

[Chocks]

By the way - the company isn't buying the jackets, the pilots who want them have to purchase them themselves....

 

[rfresh]

...[UAL] these are the best managers money can buy...

Really? Let's me see if I got this straight: the top executives at UAL are the 'cream of the crop' in airline management? And, according to you and others, they are earning their pay and keep?

Collectively, dispite their salaries that well exceed a senior 747 Captain's pay plus their 1M+ bonuses, over the last 5+ years they have lost the company Billions of Dollars, made bad decisions that drove the company into a 3 year bankruptcy and they continue to make bad decisions and lose hundreds of millions of Dollars this year. Unable to stop the flow of red ink, they now want to come out of bankruptcy.

And for this performance you are telling us the UAL executives deserve their high salaries and 1M+ bonuses?

Yep, these are the executives I want running my airline...

 

[Occam's Razor]

Pilots who yell about management are by and large class warriors. And like all class warriors, they would JUMP at the *hypothetical* opportunity to assume an upper management position if the price was right.

That is a generalization....and as you know, all generalizations are false...including this one.

I don't think "class warfare" is the driver.

I think we're wired a little differently, and it has nothing to do with caste. Pilots are skeptics. We are in control, and taught from day-one to be distrustful of anyone but ourselves. The weather briefer says VFR at CLE?...Ha! I'm still loading the extra gas. ATC says no other traffic in the pattern?...I'm still checking final as I turn base. We are even taught not to trust ourselves! (Is the gear down?...I'm using a checklist!)

We do our jobs with a remarkable rate of success. When we are unsuccessful....it's the lead story on the nightly news, nationwide. Our habitual success is a source of pride to us. (So is the danger of the unsucessfaul part)

When someone who doesn't have to schlep his bags through the slush to the crew bus...double-dip through de-icing...then sleep in the EWR-short hotel (overlooking the prison; right next to the "Don't Pick Up Hitchhikers!" sign), treats us like a "cost item", it breeds resentment.

Pillows....$2
Fuel.......$1.65
Pilot.......$130

Another source of resentment is the lack of respect. No little kid ever walked down the street...heard a noise...and looked up at the 34th floor a building, thinking "Someday I hope I'm in a cubicle up there doing quarterly reports!"

But there were plenty of us who heard the airplanes, and always stopped and looked. Always.

We respect this profession because it is an honorable one, and we take pride in doing it. Those who would diminish it's luster (if only to us) are insulting us. It's hard not to take it personally when "managers" refuse to acknowledge us as keen decision-makers too.

Yip is absolutely correct: these are the best managers money can buy, and pilots are readily replaceable. Why is this such a shock to some of you?

1. Because they act like "managers". If they acted like "leaders" we'd follow them!
2. Because we are used to being successful in our jobs, regardless of the environment.
3. Because every pilot, regardless of how good they really are, thinks they're "above average". They expect the managers to be above average too! (From a statistical standpoint...every manager cannot be "above average". Even managers in Lake Woebegon. Ditto pilots)
4. Because managers don't stick around! They come in, make their loot, pull the ripcord, and ride the Golden Parachute...while the rest of us ride the aircraft in. I'm on my 5th CEO. The 1st 4 are being paid by my "struggling major airline based in the upper-Midwest" even though they are doing nothing.

 

[pilotyip]

Occam what is the answer? As stated in the ATW article no one wants to do the job of airline managment. Pilots don't like what is going on, but they have no answers to give to managment that will make it better. As stated in another thread. All the pilots who want the "good ole days" back should get together, buy DAL, fire all the management, hire there own team, talk them into doing their jobs for pilot wages. When the airline turns around the stockholders will be happy, the pilots will be happy, and managment will have the resume to move on to another job at higher pay.

 

[mar]

The long (and very unpopular) view

Occam's Razor--That was an excellent post. But I've stopped looking for any appreciation from management. It's true, we're regarded as a "cost unit", and I take a certain amount of satisfaction from contributing to a safe and efficient operation. But still, I've finally resigned myself to an attitude of show up, do the flight and go home. I don't aspire (any longer) to be part of the training dept, a check airman or any other position of responsibility (been there, done that, never again).

I think part of our (pilot's) problem is that we're programmed to always find the solution. But if we can't do that, then set the brakes. What we have to realize is that it's not our job to fix this problem. As frustrating as it is to watch, I think it's finally time for pilots to just, as a former boss of mine used to say, "just drive the plane."

As for Pilotyip and management, my response would be: The entire business model is wrong.

My personal opinion is that even though airlines, as we know them, have been around since the '30s and have experienced two large revolutions (the turbine engine and deregulation) they are still in an infancy.

I see airlines running better less as a corporation and more of a utility. I think airlines serve the public like telephone, power and even other forms of mass transit and should be regulated as such.

The old cliche' about starting with two million dollars in order to make one million in the airline business is more true than ever and savvy entrepreneurs know this....that's why the airline business attracts scumbags looking to make a quick buck and then get out.

And thus it will always be until the entire business model of the modern airline is changed.

That's why I call this the long and unpopular view. Because right now, no one, management or pilots (unions) are willing to accept it. Everyone wants to limit their decision making on present conditions, and who can blame them when the average airline pilot has 25 years to get ready for retirement.

Good luck.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

mar-good post. A short version is Air Line Pilots do not run airlines.

This can be fustrating in that we are counting on our CEO's to make the right decisions so we can prosper in our careers. It doesn't work out that way...especially lately...

All we do is safely move airplanes from point A to B. Anything else is wasting time and energy.