UAL Pilots Agree to Scrapping Pension!

[canyonblue]

canyonblue,

I know jerks at every airline, including yours. There's a bunch of great people here, just like at your airline.

Well I did not mean that the guy was a jerk, just that his number one priority seemed to be his pay. When I applied to Southwest, it was pre-9/11, many of my fellow pilots also asked me "Why are you going there?". For me it was never about the money, and our earlier pay scale proves that, however Southwest had the best potential for a long stable career. No one could envision the collapse of the industry or the resulting shakeup to come, but my little research made Southwest stand out as a place that people loved to work at. Since they did not have all the things that fellow pilots pointed out, Top Pay, International flying, 747's, 75 years in the business, I had to find out what it was about Southwest that made every Southwest pilot I met brag about it. They took me to their car and opened up the trunk and inside was a briefcase, and like in Pulp Fiction my eyes lit up as the glow came across my face. And that is the reason I am at Southwest today. And someday if the money is taken away, I'll still have that glow on my face. If nothing at all, and that they can never take!*

*Because now I have the briefcase.

 

[G4G5]

Trading the pension for a handfull of magic beans? Not good.

 

[TWA Dude]

At what point does one stop blaming the economic slump and someone (anyone) start making these extremely well compensated, management teams accountable and liable for gross mismanagement?

The answer is when we can. Remember the "summer of love" contract UALPA got in 2000? They had leverage and they took management to the cleaners. Now the tide has turned. ALPA isn't like the longshoremen with a stranglehold on the industry because we all fly for competing carriers. A national seniority list will never come to pass thus there can never be total unity amongst pilots. Some days you're the bug, other days you're the windshield.

 

[Boeingman]

A national seniority list will never come to pass thus there can never be total unity amongst pilots. Some days you're the bug, other days you're the windshield.

True about the list. To bad ALPA didn't start acting like a national union though. We have nothing but impotent leadership in Herndon.

Most of us can look forward to B scale wages, no retirement plans and lousy work rules for some time to come.

I can not emphasize enough to those on this board GET A SIDE LINE INCOME OR CAREER!!!! It makes things much easier to roll with the punches.

 

[Boeingman]

canyonblue,

I know jerks at every airline, including yours. There's a bunch of great people here, just like at your airline.

Boeingman,

We will agree to disagree. Go ahead and argue that they have a bad plan, or no plan will work with $45-50/barrel oil, but UAL mgt knows exactly what they are doing. What is going on in Asia is more than a few flights, and includes alliances that will shape the future of flying over there for a long time to come. United has flooded the domestic market with about 600 LESS flights in the past few years, and will cut another 11% Jan 6. At the same time international seats are being increased by 14%.

Its not enough for you to just say TED is a failure with nothing to back it up. I know a bunch of people want it to fail, but that alone is not going to be enough. United has changed the product with TED and the new Premium Service (another facet that happened randomly with no plan) and I think the changes are good. Fact is, if United wasn't responding to changing consumer groups, there would be even more naysaying.

Since it was stupid for mgt to put all the eggs in the ATSB basket, I guess you can tell me what plan B should have been? W/O ATSB backing, there wasn't then, now, or in the future going to be any exit financing with the defined pensions. Period. So you think mgt is going to convince all these unions that there is no hope for the ATSB so we have to ditch the pensions now? I don't think that was going to happen.

You think the company is just now saying things are bleak? I don't know how to argue against that. I read the business sections from all our hub newspapers every morning and the WSJ - they've been saying its bleak for about 3 years and 1 month.

I've got several hours of research to do to analyze the convertable note deal. I wouldn't argue one way or the other until then, except to say I couldn't care less about it. I care about my 401K and IRAs, and don't put any hope in anything else that I don't have complete control over. Take care.

Skykid, I don't have a lot of time to respond. I think your situation is easier viewed from the outside looking in. I know, I've been there before.

TED. One comment. If it was performing so well UAL would breakdown the financials seperate from the rest of the airlines performance. Trust me on this one because, especially now, they need some type of good news to put a good face for the creditors. They are not which says it is NOT making money. Second, this dual type of service is a bad idea. You can't have seperate identies under one flag. In the end it just wont work. CAL proved that long ago with essentially the same plan and it was a dismal failure. There was no brand service identity. Another words, people never new if they'd get a bag of peanuts of a filet mignon and always expect the better deal. Easy on me running out of time.

Marketing alliances do not save airlines. Yes, granted they produce feed, but the amount of revenue is more than likely not as much as they always count on. That has been proven over and over.

The 2 track plan should of been a no brainer. Do you not list an alternate when the weather is bad? Rotten analogy but I am in a hurry.

The drawing down of domestic feed is like an airline collapsing on itself. You start losing the feed for those international connections. In the end, although different and much more extreme, it was Pan Am's main problem which led to their demise.

The creditor lawsuit is not a good sign or the repos. I'm not sure why you didn't mention it. The financials I am talkign about is stuff being released through the bankruptcy process. They are getting much more attention than just a few articles in the past. That sort of feeds on itself.

Best of luck, not meant to attack just to keep your eyes open.

Gotta run, sorry for the typo's

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

First of all.... blaming ALPA National shows a lack of education in how the world and the system works. In addition, don't chew out the only organization that may even care or listen.... Cause you know what, no one else gives a damm about us. The pax don't care, they just want cheap tickets, the gov't doesn't care, it's not thier arena, management doesn't care, they just want cheap labor. And your wife might not even care. She doesn't dream about flying jets, she just wants a paycheck, so she can feed your kids and go shopping once and a while....

There are many pilots that, define themsleves as a Legacy Carrier pilot. I AM a United pilot. I AM a Delta pilot. That is all good when it means something... when the paycheck has substance. But who were the PAA and EAL pilots the day after the doors closed? They were someone and all of a sudden they were no one. (if that is how you define yourself....)

This industry is changing faster than we can keep track! Don't blame the legacy carriers and those pilots for trying to survive.

But what does it mean when a pilot can now make the same amount of money flying for SWA, jB or Airtran? And not have to worry about the historical furlough trend. Two industries are evolving within... domestic style with SWA leading the pack and the widebody transoceanic. I wouldn't be surprised if the all the narrowbody and regional jet flying were grouped up. Now, these pilots will have more in common and the golden boys and careers will be in the fat jets. In other words, will the widebody boys scope out the narrowbody/regional guys. Fine you say, I'll just go fly frieght. I can get a good career at FX or UPS. Well, ok, but cabatoge is banging on our door louder than Lenny from L&O. Don't you just love that China Air B747 [it's just one!]that lands in BNA everyday! (just rambling here... back to the thread...)

The UAL/DAL/AMR guys could act the big dogs when they were making the big dog pay...but now.......

Globalization is here.....

Airline pilots are blue collar labor. Plan and simple. No matter how much we equate ourselves to Doctors, Lawyers and other professionals, corporate america has and always will view us as hourly labor. Just like the FAs, rampers and aircraft cleaners. We are tradesman. (and we act like it..more often than not, I fear)

Foreign labor can and does ramp work, aircraft cleaning and other blue collar jobs. But they can also do airmanship. As much as our egos hate to admit it, the mexicans and chinese can safely fly jets. And they will, for pennies on the dollar. And if you don't watch and act upon what happens on CapHill they will do it here in the US.

The pilot unions have been able to build somewhat of a psuedo facade of the airline pilot. Exploiting the mystic and skill required, translating that into a good career......

Nothing last forever and all good things come to an end....

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

From Rez:

"Unions have been able to build is somewhat of psuedo facade of the airline pilot. Exploiting the mystic and skill required, translating that into a good career......

Nothing last forever and all good things come to an end...."

Then automation will be the coupe de grace. Speculate the next wave of new ships will require a one person crew. Future generations will wonder why there was such a mystery to flying.

 

[AV8OR]

"Then automation will be the coupe de grace. Speculate the next wave of new ships will require a one person crew. Future generations will wonder why there was such a mystery to flying."

Well, that'll sure make TRM training a breeze.

 

[Falconjet]

Is there any way the moderators can edit this thread so that it can be read in one computer screen? The threads that do this are impossible to read!

Please!

FJ

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Is there any way the moderators can edit this thread so that it can be read in one computer screen? The threads that do this are impossible to read!

Please!

FJ

(untill they do, use thread tools, printable version)

 

[Falconjet]

Thanks

Rez: Thanks for the tip! Makes it much easier.

FJ

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Maybe this explains the MEC's acceptance of terms



Airlines open higher
Analysts weigh in United Airlines, Independence Air

By Matt Andrejczak, CBS.MarketWatch.com
Last Update: 10:39 AM ET Dec. 22, 2004

SAN FRANCISCO (CBS.MW) -- Airline stocks opened higher Wednesday as crude oil prices stayed below $46 a barrel.



The Amex Airline Index (XX:$XAL: news, chart, profile) rose 0.56 points to 59.07. American Airlines parent AMR Corp. (AMR: news, chart, profile) led the major carriers upwards, rising 28 cents to $10.57. JetBlue Airways (JBLU: news, chart, profile) outpaced its low-fare rivals, adding 40 cents to $23.11.
ExpressJet Holdings (XJT: news, chart, profile), the regional jet service provider for Continental Airlines, tacked on 6 cents to $13 after Smith Barney started coverage with a "buy" rating.

Analysts also weighed in with earnings revisions at United Airlines parent UAL and Independence Air parent FLYi.

Goldman Sachs analyst Glenn Engel said losses at UAL are "running larger than expected." He widened his fourth-quarter loss to $10.55 a share, up from $9.33.

"Even excluding fuel, losses are slightly ahead of last year," Engel added in a research note.

UAL (UALAQ: news, chart, profile) on Thursday reported a net loss of $87 million in November, which includes a $158 million gain from selling its stake in Orbitz. That sale helped the company meet its November loan covenant provision, according to a statement.

UBS analyst Robert Ashcroft hiked his full-year 2004 loss estimate for FLYi to $4.29 a share, up from $3.84.

Ashcroft said the struggling low-fare airline's fate depends on US Airways Group, which is trying to emerge from bankruptcy. US Airways has warned it could liquidate early next year if it cannot reach cost-savings agreements with its unions.

"If US Airways succeeds, we see little reason for FLYi to continue as [a] LCC (low-cost carrier)," he said in a research note.

Shares of FLYi (FLYI: news, chart, profile) inched up 1 cent to $1.69.