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UAL might have largest pension default in history

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FL000

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http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1004/p02s01-usec.html

United's pension woes: sign of bigger issue

Ailing airline may end all of its pension plans, creating the biggest default in US history and forcing a possible bailout.

By Alexandra Marks | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

NEW YORK – Despite ongoing negotiations with its unions, United Airlines has told the bankruptcy court that the "likely result" will be a decision to terminate all of its pension plans.

That would precipitate the biggest pension default in history, more twice the size of the Bethlehem Steel Corporation default in 2002. The move is expected to destabilize the already struggling airline industry, prompting other old-line carriers like Delta to eventually follow suit to maintain competitiveness.

It would also put additional pressure on the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC,) the federal agency that insures traditional pensions in case companies go belly up. It's already facing more than a $9 billion shortfall. A default by United would saddle it with an additional $8.4 billion in unfunded obligations. If other airlines follow, the PBGC may have to go to Congress and plead for a bailout that some experts say would be bigger than the Savings and Loan debacle of the 1980s.

More broadly, what all this means is that retirement for US workers just isn't what it used to be. Forget the gold watch and reliable pension check after 30 years of service. The impact of globalization and competition from low-wage companies that don't provide benefits has shifted the onus of retirement security from larger firms onto individuals.

Twenty years ago, 40 percent of American workers were covered by traditional pensions known as defined-benefit plans. Today that number's dropped to 20 percent. As the Bethlehem Steel and United examples show, even that 20 percent may not be able to count on what they've been promised. Currently, about 75 percent of those corporate plans are underfunded. "There are numerous threats to retirement in the future," says Brad Belt, executive director of the PBGC. "So it's incumbent on individuals to be well informed, prudent about their investments, and to save accordingly."

To get a sense of the impact of the pension crisis on individuals, look at what United employees can expect. Pilots, who by law must retire at 60, could see their retirement income cut by 75 percent.

Betty, who asked that her name not be used, has been flying for United for 26 years. She was expecting to retire with $140,000 a year. After the recent round of give-backs, that was cut to $90,000. But if United defaults as expected, she'd receive only $28,000 from the PBGC. If she waits until 65 to start collecting, she could be eligible for as much $44,500 a year.
Either way, once pilots are forced to leave the cockpit at 60, most will probably look for another job rather than lounge on the golf course. Betty has already started a mediation business on the side. "All of the benefits that I'd been promised during those 26 years have been erased by corporate American greed," she says. "And yet I can see the big picture. I've said for three years that our pensions are history. No matter how many promises they make us, if the money isn't there, it isn't there."

For the pilots union, which negotiated the pension benefits over the years, often giving up wage increases for better retirement packages, the current situation is infuriating. They see pensions as benefits that are earned, like employee paychecks, not a bonus to be given as long as a company can afford it. "It seems immoral that just because they happen to be in a legal situation, they can walk away from those obligations," says Steve Derebey, spokesman for Air Line Pilots Association. "Why this isn't a burning, blazing campaign issue is beyond me."

For United's managers the situation is just as stark. Because they are currently negotiating with the pilots, they wouldn't comment. But some experts say the company's decision to announce in bankruptcy court that it expected to default reflects its "frustration" with the perceived union intransigence. "United has been trying to engage its unions for a long period of time," says John Budd, a labor-relations expert at the University of Minnesota's Carlson School of Management. "This reflects its frustration with its inability to get them constructively engaged."

Many aviation experts contend that after two years in bankruptcy, and with its finances still precarious, United has no other choice but to default. That's because competition from lower-cost airlines, many of which provide 401(k) plans instead of traditional pensions, have transformed the economics of the aviation industry. "The cost of maintaining defined-benefit-pension plans doesn't make any sense because you've got the low-cost carriers entering the market with such dramatic cost advantages to begin with," says Jon Ash, managing director of Global Aviation Associates in Washington. "Like in other industries, the day of the defined-benefit pension plan is long gone."

Mr. Ash, like other aviation experts, believes that once United defaults other carriers like Delta and USAirways will also have to find a way to dramatically reduce their pension obligations. USAirways, which already has defaulted on its pilots' pension plans during its first trip to bankruptcy court in 2002, has warned that it may default on others as well. Delta, which is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, may have no choice but to follow suit.

For the PBGC, which is already facing a long-term funding gap, that scenario could spell trouble. That's in part because as the number of companies switching from traditional pensions to 401(k) plans drops, so does the PBGC's premium income. Currently, the remaining companies pay the PBGC $19 per employee to insure their defined-benefit pension plans.

While the PBGC can charge more if a pension fund is underfunded, companies don't always pay up, as the Bethlehem Steel case illustrates. It didn't pay the increased costs even after it stopped paying into its plans. And the current premiums do not reflect the real costs of insuring the pensions. For example, over the years United has paid into the PBGC only $50 million dollars. If it defaults, it will saddle the government insurance agency with $6.4 billion dollars worth of claims.

"We need to take measured action now to address those threats to the system," says the PBGC's Mr. Belt.
 
FL000 said:
United's pension woes: sign of bigger issue
Bigger issue is.... "It's the pilots' fault"

;)
 
FL000 said:
She was expecting to retire with $140,000 a year. After the recent round of give-backs, that was cut to $90,000. But if United defaults as expected, she'd receive only $28,000 from the PBGC. If she waits until 65 to start collecting, she could be eligible for as much $44,500 a year.
Either way, once pilots are forced to leave the cockpit at 60, most will probably look for another job rather than lounge on the golf course.
Based on this info, it looks like the UAL group might just advocate that ALPA revolutionize their perspective about age 60. Any takers?
 
Dennis Miller said:
Based on this info, it looks like the UAL group might just advocate that ALPA revolutionize their perspective about age 60. Any takers?
Did you just wake up?
 
I've been saying it in private for months now, DM is right. As soon as the United pilots pension is gone so is the age 60 rule.

Not making a judgement either way, but that is what will happen.


TP
 
This really sucks! Imagine working for several years expecting to get a nice retirement, and all of a sudden management says, "we're sorry, but we can't afford to pay for your retirement anymore".


I guess the bottom line is, we can't rely on a pension to support us in retirement. We all need to make sure we have our own retirement plan in place. I'm glad I have a few years to get one in place. I feel sorry for the folks who are about to retire or who have just recently retired.

Good luck all!
 
FL000 said:
Betty, who asked that her name not be used, has been flying for United for 26 years.
And by the way, Betty, nice use of the surreptitious, how many pilots with 26 years seniority are named Betty.
 
fartknocker said:
This really sucks! Imagine working for several years expecting to get a nice retirement, and all of a sudden management says, "we're sorry, but we can't afford to pay for your retirement anymore".


I guess the bottom line is, we can't rely on a pension to support us in retirement. We all need to make sure we have our own retirement plan in place. I'm glad I have a few years to get one in place. I feel sorry for the folks who are about to retire or who have just recently retired.

Good luck all!
Not bad for all. The President of ALPA gets a $149,000+ pension after serving 8 years, plus his airline retirement. Must be secure because everyone pays dues.;)
 
This issue if FORCING out many of our senior guys, and they have until Feb 1st to leave or lose 1/2 of their pension (or lump sum). Some of them (at random or if they are currently a line check airman) will stay until their replacement is trained. This might cause an exodus of 500-800 senior Captains. If United pulls the plug on thier pension, Delta will follow. I can forsee a "cash balance" type program being set up---which is just one large lump sum (maybe large, maybe not) when you retire, and then no monthly pension after that. It will never be as good as the guys who are getting that "defined benefit" program now---1/2 lump and then a monthly pension on top of that.



Bye Bye--General Lee
 
font size too large....don't do that again!
 
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Blame the internet. It has had more to do with the collapse of pricing power than any single source. Cheap tickets are widely available and now expected, not hoped for. Cheap tickets mean cheap benefits. Get over it.
 
Mugs
Blame the internet. It has had more to do with the collapse of pricing power than any single source. Cheap tickets are widely available and now expected, not hoped for. Cheap tickets mean cheap benefits. Get over it.
I'm afraid you are correct. This statement says it all. We are all screwed.
 
Somebody correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure somebody will...) but United and USAir don't have any choice but to terminate pensions. They are in bankruptcy and the only funding they can get is from lenders who insist they terminate the pensions. The choice is either bankruptcy and no job, or sacrifice the pensions and keep your job.
 
46Driver said:
Somebody correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure somebody will...) but United and USAir don't have any choice but to terminate pensions. They are in bankruptcy and the only funding they can get is from lenders who insist they terminate the pensions. The choice is either bankruptcy and no job, or sacrifice the pensions and keep your job.
Their are options but none of them are perfect. The company only has some much money avaiable for payrole, in essence a certian percentage of revenues. Part of that goes to the pension payments.
The options for the pilots are two fold; one to reduce their hourly wage in order to allow the company to divert more money to the pension funding.
The second option is to increase productivity by X% in order to increase revenues enough to fund the pension.
Certianly a combination of both, pay reduction and productivity increase is an options as well. Whatever the final out come is the money for the pensions will be coming from the pilots.
 
46Driver said:
Somebody correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure somebody will...) but United and USAir don't have any choice but to terminate pensions. They are in bankruptcy and the only funding they can get is from lenders who insist they terminate the pensions. The choice is either bankruptcy and no job, or sacrifice the pensions and keep your job.
Unknown what went on in the negotiations between management, creditors and lenders. However, what is apparent is management obviously could have said no to these demands. One would assume it would be a valid argument to tell the money folks that detrimental decisions to the employees could damage their investment in the long run.

Are we now subject to the whims of the banks to abrogate and modify our collective bargaining agreements? What if they decide they don't like pay rates or work rules and threaten to withhold credit or money? I don't see much of a difference once a line is crossed.

What is even more interesting is these demands to terminate and/or modify pensions does not apply to the management ranks. Simply disgusting in my opinion.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/yho...773BD8FA 7F%7D


Hello ALPA!!! Knock knock...is anyone home????? ALPA's response to date on the rape of these pensions is simply disgusting.
 
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Traditional retirement plans are unfortunatly going the way of the Dodo. Their is no doubt in my mind that what you will see is a reduction of bennies. The PBGC will not let the legacy carriers just dump their pension liabilities on the us tax payer. United will be the defining case becasue if they do it, the others will surly follow. The gov would sooner liquidate UALs assets then be left holding the bag for every major airline employe's pension.

IMHO what you will see is an increase in productivty and a reduction of pay rates to help cover a certian % of pension funding. BUT the current 10-11% defined bennie plans will begin to disappear. The companies could eaisly offer a reduction to a defined bennie plan to hypothetical level of 4-5%, then offer the rest in the current form of a modern retirement plan, similar to SWA and JETBlue. The difference could be made up with a 401k and profit sharing.

Companies prefer the 401k over a traditional retirement for a variety of reasons(do a google search and educate yourself) The biggest bennie to the employee is the money can be pretax contributions.

Again my guess is what you will see is: a defined bennie play contribution of approx 4-5%, 401k with a match up to 3-4% and a % of profit sharing. This of course will be grandfathered to existing employees. This would reduce the companies contributions to 4-5% (for folks who don't contribut to the 401k) and worse case of 8-9% for those who contribut the max. Like health care the employees will now be saked to contribute a percentage towards their retirements. A combination of: a reduction of company contributions, an increas in employee contributions, pay reductions and productivity increases will more then be enough to allow the legacy carriers to keep the retirement plans around.

New hires will get a different deal simlar to what SWA and B6 have, with NO defined bennie plan. This is what is really at stake, the companies want to get rid of the traditional retirement plans. Folks you need to look no further then corporate America to see that this is the current trend. Companies like IBM and Time Warner have been doing this for years. Each has done it without leaving the US tax payer holding the bag.
 
G4G5 said:
Their are options but none of them are perfect. The company only has some much money avaiable for payrole, in essence a certian percentage of revenues. Part of that goes to the pension payments.
The options for the pilots are two fold; one to reduce their hourly wage in order to allow the company to divert more money to the pension funding.
The second option is to increase productivity by X% in order to increase revenues enough to fund the pension.
Certianly a combination of both, pay reduction and productivity increase is an options as well. Whatever the final out come is the money for the pensions will be coming from the pilots.
Pension terminations have nothing to do with diverting more money to fund pensions. There is no money to divert. I would guess that on paper most airline pension funds were fully funded in 1999-2000. Now we have the Dotcom burst, stock market goes down, interest rates go down, and then 9-11. All of a sudden these fully funded plans become billions underfunded. The companies have a choice, put the additional billions into the plans to meet the requirements of the law or terminate the plans. USAir terminated the pilot pension plan because the didn't have the money. Companies like FedEx and UPS were probably just as underfunded but they had the money to bring the funding up to the required level. Looks like UAL does not and will not be able to fund the pensions. Sort of like having obligations that require you to pay $800 per month to the bank but things change and the bank says in order to keep your account up to date you have to still make that $800 payment next month but you will also have to deposit another $50,000. If you can't come up with the money we take your house.
 
B-Scale A Plan?

G4G5 said:
New hires will get a different deal simlar to what SWA and B6 have, with NO defined bennie plan. This is what is really at stake, the companies want to get rid of the traditional retirement plans. Folks you need to look no further then corporate America to see that this is the current trend. Companies like IBM and Time Warner have been doing this for years. Each has done it without leaving the US tax payer holding the bag.
Interesting viewpoint, and most likely, dead on balls-accurate. Sounds a bit like the B-Scale except for pensions. Where does the line draw down on, new hires? What about new hires who were soon thereafter furloughed?

Just ask an American pilot what a B-Scale does to a company. Very bad for morale.

However, I am not sure if IBM can be considered a successful trend setter here since they are in the process of settling with older workers to the tune of several hundred million dollars over retirement plan conversion. But it sure seems like we are fighting the same battle over again. Best of luck.
 
The gov would sooner liquidate UALs assets then be left holding the bag for every major airline employe's pension.

That makes the PBGC's statement to United employees defining what they will cover seem a little odd then, doesn't it? I'm not an expert on the PBGC by any means. I have read everything I can on the issue for the past several months. What I see from every source is the gov has less say in the matter than you think. G4G5, I would love to see some precendent or law backing up your statement if you have it. Thanks.
 
A couple of other points regarding G4G5s belief that the government would rather pursue a liquidation of UAL's assets. How much are those assets worth? How much would they be worth in a chapter 7 firesale? Would it come anywhere near covering the shortfall? Let's assume for the sake of your argument that it would in fact "solve" the UAL pension issue for the PBGC. What happens then to UAL's liquidated assets? I bet they come back into the market operating at about 6 cents a mile or less. A nice fresh explosion of ultra low cost competiton for the surviving carriers still struggling to pay for their surviving pension plans to worry about. Further downward pressure on revenue will result and the noise about having to dump the plans to compete will start all over again. Unless you can permanently get the excess capacity out of the system, there will be no revenue premium. Thus, the pressure on funding pensions is unlikely to let up regardless of whether UAL survives or not.
 
General Lee said:
This issue if FORCING out many of our senior guys, and they have until Feb 1st to leave or lose 1/2 of their pension (or lump sum). Some of them (at random or if they are currently a line check airman) will stay until their replacement is trained. This might cause an exodus of 500-800 senior Captains. If United pulls the plug on thier pension, Delta will follow. I can forsee a "cash balance" type program being set up---which is just one large lump sum (maybe large, maybe not) when you retire, and then no monthly pension after that. It will never be as good as the guys who are getting that "defined benefit" program now---1/2 lump and then a monthly pension on top of that.



Bye Bye--General Lee
General,
Sounds like you have changed your tune. Here is what you said a while back:


http://forums.flightinfo.com/images/icons/icon26.gif
inclusivescope,


You seem giddy. That is weird. As the Stock market grows, the pension shortfall---even in this industry---will get smaller. The Dow is expected to grow a lot over the next five years, and hopefully, with the right investments by our crackpot team in ATL---the shortfall will get smaller. Time for you to get off caffeine.

Bye Bye--General Lee
__________________
"Ride the Snake"

---Jimmy Tango's quick weight loss
Plan

(Jim Carey on SNL)


Which is it General?
 
skykid said:
The gov would sooner liquidate UALs assets then be left holding the bag for every major airline employe's pension.

That makes the PBGC's statement to United employees defining what they will cover seem a little odd then, doesn't it? I'm not an expert on the PBGC by any means. I have read everything I can on the issue for the past several months. What I see from every source is the gov has less say in the matter than you think. G4G5, I would love to see some precendent or law backing up your statement if you have it. Thanks.
One needs to look no further then what the gov had to say when Eastern tried to do the same thing.
 
Mugs said:
A couple of other points regarding G4G5s belief that the government would rather pursue a liquidation of UAL's assets. How much are those assets worth? How much would they be worth in a chapter 7 firesale?
Somehting is better then nothing but what really is at stake is every pension for every legacy carrier (and some believe that this could eaisly go outside the airline industry). If the PBGC let's UAL get away with it then they are opening the flood gates.

Would it come anywhere near covering the shortfall? Let's assume for the sake of your argument that it would in fact "solve" the UAL pension issue for the PBGC. What happens then to UAL's liquidated assets? I bet they come back into the market operating at about 6 cents a mile or less. A nice fresh explosion of ultra low cost competiton for the surviving carriers still struggling to pay for their surviving pension plans to worry about. Further downward pressure on revenue will result and the noise about having to dump the plans to compete will start all over again. Unless you can permanently get the excess capacity out of the system, there will be no revenue premium. Thus, the pressure on funding pensions is unlikely to let up regardless of whether UAL survives or not.
I don't believe that the revenue premiums will ever return. The excess capacity will be removed by those who can't compete at the current LCC CMS's.
 
inclusivescope,


I have changed my tone somewhat. This problem has grown and a lot of what I said previously was due to stuff I read in articles at the time. I didn't just make that stuff up. I think our pension problem is one that now won't go away easily, and our current pension program will vanish soon. Those days of huge lump sums and then annuity payments monthly on top of that will soon be history. I think many of our senior guys can see that now, and will bail out with at least a lump sum and a chance at some monthly payments.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
One needs to look no further then what the gov had to say when Eastern tried to do the same thing.

That doesn't exactly mean much to me - the gov has had a lot to say in the current situation and most of it seems to be pleadings and suggestions. Again, I would love to see some precendent or law backing up your statement if you have it. Thanks.
 
Blame, in part, ALPA. Defined Benefit pension is almost an article of faith at ALPA because, so the rationale goes, it eliminates uncertainty (as opposed to a 401(k) program, where the employee has to invest the money him/herself, and therefore the potential returns are uncertain).

Yeah, defined contribution pensions may be uncertain in some ways, but in one way they're very certain---they money is yours, all yours, and even if the company goes belly-up, that money can't be taken away from you.

In retrospect, defined benefit pension plans (as currently structured) were a really bad idea, and ALPA should rethink its retirement benefit goals for its members.

fartknocker said:
This really sucks! Imagine working for several years expecting to get a nice retirement, and all of a sudden management says, "we're sorry, but we can't afford to pay for your retirement anymore".


I guess the bottom line is, we can't rely on a pension to support us in retirement. We all need to make sure we have our own retirement plan in place. I'm glad I have a few years to get one in place. I feel sorry for the folks who are about to retire or who have just recently retired.

Good luck all!
 
Exactly.

Everyone believed that their airline would always remain profitable and that the retirement money would always be there.

What this really is: A huge market correction from an unsustainable business model.
 

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