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UAL got pensions get slashed by dumb judge

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N1kawotg

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 24, 2003
Posts
123
UAL got pensions slashed by judge

Judge clears UAL deal with US to terminate pensions
Tue May 10, 2005 06:50 PM ET
CHICAGO, May 10 (Reuters) - A judge approved a deal on Tuesday between bankrupt United Airlines and the government that will let the carrier terminate its pension plans and save about $645 million annually over five years.

No. 2 United, a unit of UAL Corp.(UALAQ.OB: Quote, Profile, Research) , will grant the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. up to $1.5 billion in securities to settle the agency's main claims in bankruptcy court and clear the way for it to assume control of the four plans.
 
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I guess you were there too? I guess you have heard all of the facts? You are also an expert on corporate finance?

What an adolescent little fool you are.

Mindless comments like these prove why pilots will continue to be victims of their own stupidity and greed. I think we know who the true idiot is here. While it is unfortunate to see people lose their pensions, there are many other factors that you are unable to see. It is the immature that look for a simple scapegoat for their frustrations. I can understand anger against UAL management. However, what is done is done. It is probably too late now for anything less than a total overhaul.

I imagine that you would also like to commit acts of violence on physicians when they are forced to amputate to save a life?
 
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I'm flying on United tomorrow so I'm wondering if there are going to be any cancelations and/or delays...
 
Yeah right.........

Yank McCobb said:
Yep. Count on it.


Hey everybody!! Wanker McCobb has spoken! If you are flying UAL tomorrow, don't bother going to the airport!!

Please........any strike (which I doubt there will be) will be immediately quashed by the same judge. Do you really think that he has given UAL this much leeway, only to see a strike shutdown the airline?

Some real genius on this board, let me tell you. Sheesh.

Kaki, I'm sure your flight will operate.
 
100LL... Again! said:
I guess you were there too? I guess you have heard all of the facts? You are also an expert on corporate finance?

What an adolescent little fool you are.

Mindless comments like these prove why pilots will continue to be victims of their own stupidity and greed. I think we know who the true idiot is here. While it is unfortunate to see people lose their pensions, there are many other factors that you are unable to see. It is the immature that look for a simple scapegoat for their frustrations. I can understand anger against UAL management. However, what is done is done. It is probably too late now for anything less than a total overhaul.

I imagine that you would also like to commit acts of violence on physicians when they are forced to amputate to save a life?

What the hell is he going to do? Order them to go to work? How long will that take? At least a day or two for the hearing to happen, take effect, etc. The airline will still be shut down for a little while at least. The point will be made. UAL will lose MILLIONS. Are they going to fire everyone that strikes? Then that would really f--k them. They'd have to hire and train all new people, which they wouldn't be able to do cost and time wise. ANY kind of work actions will wipe out UAL......or at least seriously hurt them.

And you know what the bad news is? If the company were to shut down tomorrow, management would just blame it on the greedy labor, collect their millions in severence, and skippy dippy doo all the way to the bank.

You know what? This business f-ing SUCKS. They just get away with f-ing MURDER.
 
100LL... Again! said:
...physicians when they are forced to amputate to save a life?

Your lame analogy works if:

  • The physician knew about the possibility of gangrene setting in.
  • The doctor manipulated the conditions by ommision and commision to allow the infection to flourish.
  • Once the infection became obvious, the doctor ignored it and sold the antibiotics so he would have enough money to study merging with another quack, whose office is also full of infected patients.
  • As death draws near, the Doctor wants to perform the amputation you speak of.
Corporate officers have some basic duties and responsiblities to the shareholders and employees. You're a conservative 100LL, what happened to personal responsibility? Stick to the political threads, or at least bring your thinking cap.
 
flyguppy said:
Please........any strike (which I doubt there will be) will be immediately quashed by the same judge.

By what authority? This is new legal ground. The only thing that can prevent a strike is the RLA, which just got tossed out the window. Without the RLA prohibiting self help the employees are free to seek it, since they are no longer bound by any CBA.

I'm not saying a strike will happen. I'm sure the employee groups will weigh their options. Even if they do strike there might be an injunction slapped down until all the legal issues involved are resolved. But at the end of the day, without a contract requiring you to show up to work, you are free to stay home. It will really only be a matter of whether that is the best option for the employees.
 
Actually, UAL is counting on the courts supporting them in the premise that the RLA is still in force, thus any type of self-help (stike, slowdown, etc.) would be an illegal job action.

The articles I have been reading claim that there is no precedent here and that UAL is walking a legal tightrope.

The other quote by a finance type said tonight, the PBGC if held to the same standards as a public company, would be declared insolvent based on the future debt obligations...especially after incuring UAL's!

This industry is in desperate need of real reform, and needs something like a day or two shutdown of the air transportation system by disgruntled unionized labor to force it to a head. Otherwise, it will be just more of the same.

How much longer can this industry support itself on the backs of their employees?
 
FDJ2 said:
By what authority? This is new legal ground. The only thing that can prevent a strike is the RLA, which just got tossed out the window.

And where are you getting that the RLA "got tossed out the window"?

In fact, the judge ruled that the PBGC/UAL agreement did not violate any CBA's. Therefore, the RLA, and the CBA's are still in force, making a strike illegal.

Whether or not the AFA, IAM, or AMFA tries any job action remains to be seen. But, I'll bet you a dollar that any actions will be ruled illegal by this judge, and any union supporting such action will face severe fines/penalties.

JMO.
 
From the Wall Street Journal

Last sentence pretty much sums up my post above.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

U.S. to Assume UAL Pension Plans
Judge Backs Plan to Move
Liabilities of $9.8 Billion,
Aiding a Bankruptcy Exit

By SUSAN CAREY
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
May 11, 2005

The judge hearing the bankruptcy case of UAL Corp.'s United Airlines late yesterday approved the airline's settlement with a federal pension insurer -- likely allowing UAL to transfer all four of its underfunded pension plans to the government.

Such a move is certain to fuel continuing union ire as many workers potentially will see their retirement benefits cut and because the judge decided they have no right to strike over the issue.

After a full day of heated testimony, U.S. Bankruptcy Court Judge Eugene Wedoff approved the deal reached last month between UAL and the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., a federal agency that guarantees corporate pension plans and pays benefits to workers whose employee-sponsored plans have failed.

The agreement, which requires the PBGC to make a final determination soon that the plans are insolvent and need to be taken over, would allow UAL to sidestep more than $3 billion in minimum-funding contributions over the next five years.

In all, the PBGC estimates it would assume $9.8 billion in total liabilities by assuming the plans, which count more than 120,000 active and retired United workers as participants.

Judge Wedoff said removing that liability would make UAL's chances of obtaining financing to step out of Chapter 11 "more likely," despite the fact that UAL would give the pension insurer as much as $1.5 billion in securities to settle its claims.

The judge, who has been presiding over the nation's largest airline bankruptcy case for nearly 30 months, also said the settlement would save UAL from the costs and distraction of litigation and would give the airline more "certainty about its future."

Responding to objections voiced by attorneys representing three unions who objected to the deal, Judge Wedoff found that the agreement between the PBGC and UAL "does not unduly affect the rights of third parties" not privy to the negotiations.

He said both U.S. Bankruptcy Code and the federal Employee Retirement Income Security Act "are very protective of [union] collective bargaining rights." If UAL had itself initiated the pension terminations, the PBGC wouldn't have been able to act without union consent.

But in the case where the PBGC initiated the action, even with UAL's consent, that union's labor contracts wouldn't be considered to be breached. "This places the needs of the pension benefit guarantee system ahead of collective bargaining agreements," the judge said. That means the workers can't strike.

The likely jettisoning of the costly defined-benefit pension plans is central to UAL's business plan as it works to attract $2 billion to $2.5 billion in debt financing in order to emerge from court protection this fall.

Prospective lenders have told the airline in no uncertain terms that they aren't interested in raising money if the airline is going to pay it all out in pension contributions in the next few years.

Sidestepping that liability will immediately transform UAL into a more-attractive candidate for funding, and give it a huge cost advantage over big airline rivals that also are saddled with underfunded defined-benefit retirement plans.

US Airways Group Inc., in Chapter 11 for the second time since 2002, transferred all of its defined-benefit pension plans to the PBGC.

It now is providing cheaper defined-contribution plans, which is UAL's intention subject to approval by the PBGC. Many of the nation's more successful low-cost airlines only offer defined-contribution plans similar to 401(k)s, which give them another competitive advantage over the older so-called legacy airlines, which have been flying for 70 years.

UAL has been suggesting since last summer that it couldn't come out of Chapter 11 with big pension liabilities. In a second round of employee concessions to help the airline become more efficient -- and financible -- the pilots agreed to let their pension plan be shifted to the government in exchange for $550 million in convertible notes in the reorganized UAL.

But the retired pilots, who stand to take a huge hit between what they were getting from the airline and what they will receive in payments from the PBGC, continued to object yesterday in court.

The Association of Flight Attendants, which has grown increasingly vocal in recent months, also agreed to a second round of pay cuts, but continued to press for retention of its pension plan and threatened to strike if the plan was terminated, saying that would violate its contract.

Now with Judge Wedoff's decision that the union has no legal grounds for a strike, it isn't clear how the union will give voice to its deep unhappiness.
 
So if the unions decide to go on an "illegal" strike, what will the ramifications be? Will all the strikers (or union leaders) get tossed in jail? Will there be fines? What if half the AFA quits tomorrow?

I have lots of friends whose livelihood depends on UAL. This is bad news for them, and the entire industry.
 
Its called free bad press...

sure the AFA cant strike but to Joe Public that thinks Eastern, TWA and Pan AM are still flying, hear bankrupt United ...blah,blah,blah.... strike more after the commercial break.

The AFA had a hand to play and played it. My question is what did ALPA try to do?
 
So what if they deciede to strike anyways??? The confusion and malay will in effect be a just as good as a stike and if they threaten to to fine them, go ahead they dont have any money to pay with anyways and if they threaten to fire them well go ahead they can find a job at walmart the sameday making just as much. If there is a strong go with saying NO by walking away from thier jobs the FA might actually have the advantage over UAL Mgts for once. What would UAL mgts do if the FA or 75 % quit in 3 days???
 

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